ZDNet: Volkswagen lied. But Elon Musk is dead wrong about diesel cars

[jperlow]

Extract: VW defrauded its customers by attempting to sell diesel as environmentally friendly under the EPA's ridiculous emissions rules. But that doesn't mean diesel is bad, or that EV's are the immediate future of transportation.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/volkswagen-lied-but-elon-musk-is-dead-wrong-about-diesel-cars

I'm the author of the piece and I'm posting the link to it here to gather responses for any follow-up pieces that I write.

 

[South Coast Guy]

As I said in another posting, please consider the pollution standards that an SUV has to meet. Then look at our diesels. Who pollutes more? Who gets poorer mileage? Which vehicle numbers in the millions on US roads?

 

[TDI2000Zim]

The article is nice.

I'm angry about the EPA trying to push us back into the horse&buggy era.

But I'm also angry at VW for its arrogance.

I suspect that the EA288 does meet every pollution requirement, so in a sense, the problem is actually solved. If that is the case, VW should give us current TDI owners a 50% discount on EA288 cars.

But, I'm not that sure that the EPA wants us to drive our TDIs. The agency is not run by scientists, but by activists.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

As I said in another posting, please consider the pollution standards that an SUV has to meet. Then look at our diesels. Who pollutes more? Who gets poorer mileage? Which vehicle numbers in the millions on US roads?

Current SUVs and current TDIs have to meet the same standards.

 

[meerschm]

No one at EPA wants cars replaced by horses.

can you imagine how much manure and urine would be deposited along I 95?

not to mention the methane which would ensue, and the impacts on water consumption. really...


if you want to go back in time on emissions targets, you have to reduce the numbers of cars on the road. pretty simple. or go back to more code orange and code red pollution days. or both.

 

[Hyde7278]

Very well written and many good points that alot of "green" people don't know or dont want to know or admit. The big problem is when the Gov gets behind a tech and pours money and regulation into that take away the fairness and competition that breeds advancement. (Ethonal bases fuels are a perfect example) and we all have seen how well that has gone.

 

[Vince Waldon]

Agreed... well written and remarkably balanced, given that you're a fan of the brand. Which, IMHO, you were very wise to point out right at the onset.

I've forwarded it to several folks who keep poking me "where's your great VW now?" and they've learned a lot. Well done!

 

[South Coast Guy]

Current SUVs and current TDIs have to meet the same standards.

Then I guess we just should be concerned about the millions sold before the change in standards.

 

[ChemMan]

As I said in another posting, please consider the pollution standards that an SUV has to meet. Then look at our diesels. Who pollutes more? Who gets poorer mileage? Which vehicle numbers in the millions on US roads?

The emission standards for gas or diesel SUV is the same as gas or diesel car.

Then I guess we just should be concerned about the millions sold before the change in standards.

When would that be?

 

[nwdiver]

I'm angry about the EPA trying to push us back into the horse&buggy era.

Given the title of this thread; That's the most ironic post I've read in a long time...

But that doesn't mean diesel is bad, or that EV's are the immediate future of transportation.

That's up to you/us; It's no longer a technological hurdle... but simply a lack of motivation...

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Then I guess we just should be concerned about the millions sold before the change in standards.

So you mean the pre-2009 models that complied with emissions standards? What's the problem with them?

 

[TDIMeister]

Given the title of this thread; That's the most ironic post I've read in a long time...

In a way he's right, if you consider that EVs predated (and initially outsold by 10:1) cars with internal combustion engines...
http://www.electricauto.org/?page=evhistory

 

[nwdiver]

In a way he's right, if you consider that EVs predated (and initially outsold by 10:1) cars with internal combustion engines...

Comparing a pre (AC inverter) / pre (Lithium-ion) EV to a modern 3-phase 400HP electric car is like comparing the wright flyer to an F-18.

Electric cars were not feasible before the IGBT which wasn't invented until ~1980.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that from a performance aspect EVs have eclipsed their ICE counterparts. In ~3 years they should have an edge in terms of cost once O&M is included. In ~5 years in terms of upfront cost. An AC synchronous motor is the most efficient and dependable method of converting Energy into motion.

 

[ZippyNH]

Extract: VW defrauded its customers by attempting to sell diesel as environmentally friendly under the EPA's ridiculous emissions rules. But that doesn't mean diesel is bad, or that EV's are the immediate future of transportation.
http://www.zdnet.com/article/volkswagen-lied-but-elon-musk-is-dead-wrong-about-diesel-cars
I'm the author of the piece and I'm posting the link to it here to gather responses for any follow-up pieces that I write.

So what did Musk lie about....
While he says something to the effect that VW might have had no choice (wrong, documents prove that VW balked at the $350-450 cost of adding addblue ..I just love it when BOSH leaks stuff) cause the technology was not good enough, he left the door open to what he is lieing about....
What is more telling is what is not said....
And Musk Did not say he would never do the same....he tried to place less fault on VW as if to foreshadow that he has done the same....
Now time to dig....
As an author, one must do more than read press releases... But journalism has become folks "reporting" on preprepared press "packages" and PR releases...

 

[tongsli]

I love our TDIs but I want a TESLA so I can stop paying for Diesel. I don't care about emissions, carbon footprint, the environment, blah, blah, blah.

I also love technology and the idea of driving an advanced electric car is awesome.

 

[nwdiver]

I don't care about emissions, carbon footprint, the environment, blah, blah, blah.

See.... I don't get this... is this just satire? I know some people are genuine. How did this 'screw my kids' mentality become so pernicious? It's depressing.

 

[ChemMan]

I love our TDIs but I want a TESLA so I can stop paying for Diesel. I don't care about emissions, carbon footprint, the environment, blah, blah, blah.

I also love technology and the idea of driving an advanced electric car is awesome.

I love the idea that it delinks economy and performance. Nissan leaf econobox with 110 HP uses 300 Wh per mile, Tesla Model S with more than 6x the HorsePower uses 360 Wh per mile. That simply hasn't ever happened before. Imagine if a top of the line ICE sports car got 90% of the fuel economy of a Prius. For the first time you can get power and economy with no compromises.

 

[tadawson]

Likely only if you drive them the same way - speed, heaviness of foot, etc . . .

"Lies, damn lies, and marketing . . . "

- Tim

 

[TDIMeister]

Comparing a pre (AC inverter) / pre (Lithium-ion) EV to a modern 3-phase 400HP electric car is like comparing the wright flyer to an F-18.

Electric cars were not feasible before the IGBT which wasn't invented until ~1980.

I don't know where this comes from. I was comparing late-1800s EVs to late-1800s internal combustion engined cars. By your implied logic, did we have the benefit of internal combustion engines with all the modern technological niceties in the turn of the last century powering Duryeas, Benzes and Ford Model Ts, too?

It's becoming increasingly obvious that from a performance aspect EVs have eclipsed their ICE counterparts. In ~3 years they should have an edge in terms of cost once O&M is included. In ~5 years in terms of upfront cost. An AC synchronous motor is the most efficient and dependable method of converting Energy into motion.

The keyword is "converting," i.e. from electricity, which must first be generated from somewhere, then be transmitted, stored in batteries, etc., before being delivered to said motors. Each step of the way presents losses. An AC synchronous efficiency may be up to about 96% efficient at converting electrical power to rotary motion, but the roundtrip losses from the battery and power electronics on the vehicle itself brings the efficiency level to the ~60-65% range (85% each for battery charging and discharging, 95% for power electronics), to speak nothing of generation and transmission losses. The headline >90% motor efficiency figure is convenient to toss about and the ignorant media and masses will eat it up, but doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story.

 

[nwdiver]

Likely only if you drive them the same way - speed, heaviness of foot, etc . . .

"Lies, damn lies, and marketing . . . "

- Tim

Over the life of the car.... most miles are on the highway at a set speed... that's going to wash out any side street shenanigans. I treat most stop lights like a racing tree but I still average ~320wh/mi. Battery to wheels that's 105 mpge. Even with worst case charging inefficiencies that's still >80mpge; Pretty good for a car that does 0-60 in ~4s.

I'm sure tires are A LOT more expensive on a per mile basis with a Tesla

 

[nwdiver]

I don't know where this comes from. I was comparing late-1800s EVs to late-1800s internal combustion engined cars. By your implied logic, did we have the benefit of internal combustion engines with all the modern technological niceties in the turn of the last century powering Duryeas, Benzes and Ford Model Ts, too?

The advantages of EVs at the turn of the century; no cranking, less vibration, less smell. Quickly vanished as ICE matured. There was a technology ceiling EVs couldn't breach for another 60 years. They needed AC motors to really compete with ICE. Converting DC=>AC on a mobile platform wasn't something that was feasible without IGBTs.

The keyword is "converting," i.e. from electricity, which must first be generated from somewhere, then be transmitted, stored in batteries, etc., before being delivered to said motors. Each step of the way presents losses. An AC synchronous efficiency may be up to about 96% efficient at converting electrical power to rotary motion, but the roundtrip losses from the battery and power electronics on the vehicle itself brings the efficiency level to the ~60-65% range (85% each for battery charging and discharging, 95% for power electronics), to speak nothing of generation and transmission losses. The headline >90% motor efficiency figure is convenient to toss about and the ignorant media and masses will eat it up, but doesn't tell anywhere near the whole story.

Lithium Ion batteries have a round-trip efficiency of ~90%

Total system efficiency is ~80-85%

The wall-wheels economy is ~87 mpge or 387wh/mi

As mentioned above the maturity of power electronics is what really changed the game; Conversion efficiencies of 98% DC=>AC are becoming the norm. Lower losses = less heat. Less heat means you can squeeze even more power out of a smaller inverter. A 400kW inverter the size of a watermelon would have been a pipe dream 10 years ago.

No one is in favor of generating this power with coal or gas; But when you consider that a residential PV system can easily generate >40kWh/day the combination of PV + EV becomes VERY attractive.

 

[kaanage]

That's up to you/us; It's no longer a technological hurdle... but simply a lack of motivation...

Also a lack of up front capital for all the expenditure required to build all the EVs, upgrade power generation capacity (including residential PV arrays), power transmission networks, power storage systems, etc.

Have a GOOD look at all the subsidies that Elon Musk's companies enjoys in order to make just a few thousand cars per month.

 

[nwdiver]

Also a lack of up front capital for all the expenditure required to build all the EVs, upgrade power generation capacity (including residential PV arrays), power transmission networks, power storage systems, etc.

Have a GOOD look at all the subsidies that Elon Musk's companies enjoys in order to make just a few thousand cars per month.

A used Nissan LEAF can be had for ~$10k; The model 3 should be at parity with similar class vehicles when it's released in 3 years. $35k w/o the FTC. A Solar PV system pays for itself in <7 years. The costs are short-term. Any cost is easily recouped over the life of the system. Even the Model S at $70-140k is cost competitive compared to its peers.

Any upgrades to the grid likely won't be required unit the end of the service life of those components. The grid as it exists can easily accommodate ~150M EVs with demand response.

Have a GOOD look at all the hidden subsidies oil enjoys...

 

[South Coast Guy]

So you mean the pre-2009 models that complied with emissions standards? What's the problem with them?

The emission standards for SUVs were significantly lower than automobiles. They produced more pollution.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

The emission standards for SUVs were significantly lower than automobiles. They produced more pollution.

That is correct - before commonrail TDIs were even introduced to the US market.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Well-to-wheels CO2(e) emissions for PV: 46 grams per kWh
well-to-wheels CO2(e) emissions for post-consumer waste biodiesel: 36 g/kWh

CO2(e) equivalent CO2 climate change from CO2, CO, HC, NOx
W-T-W inclides manufacturing, shipping, expected lifetime, efficiency loss over time, incidental land use charges.
Sources: Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and International Council on Clean Transportation.

No need to wonder why I use biodiesel from food waste....

 

[ChemMan]

The emission standards for SUVs were significantly lower than automobiles. They produced more pollution.

and diesel engines were allowed higher emissions than gasoline engines but neither allowed a magnitude more pollution.

 

[nwdiver]

Well-to-wheels CO2(e) emissions for PV: 46 grams per kWh
well-to-wheels CO2(e) emissions for post-consumer waste biodiesel: 36 g/kWh

1 kWh of electricity drives an EV ~3 miles (15g/mi)

1 kWh of B100 drives a TDI ~1.5 miles (24g/mi)

Using biodiesel is great but it's not scalable. That was one factor that drove me away from my TDI... my supply of fuel ran out

Now I make more than I can use


Wether it's nuclear, wind or solar... any clean, sustainable and scalable energy source needs electricity as an intermediate step. That being what it is... doesn't it make logical sense to use that electricity as much as possible?

 

[Nexus7]

No one at EPA wants cars replaced by horses.

can you imagine how much manure and urine would be deposited along I 95?

They don't want the urine along I95, but in our tanks!

 

[john.jackson9213]

A used Nissan LEAF can be had for ~$10k; The model 3 should be at parity with similar class vehicles when it's released in 3 years. $35k w/o the FTC. A Solar PV system pays for itself in <7 years. The costs are short-term. Any cost is easily recouped over the life of the system. Even the Model S at $70-140k is cost competitive compared to its peers.

Any upgrades to the grid likely won't be required unit the end of the service life of those components. The grid as it exists can easily accommodate ~150M EVs with demand response.

Have a GOOD look at all the hidden subsidies oil enjoys...

I admire your enthusiasm!!

Now,. Please tell me why you are not taking your own advice?

To be perfectly blunt, I am trying to figure out why you are not putting your money where your mouth is if it is such a no brainer. When are you buying a used Leaf? Please post pictures of your own solar set up.