ZDDP for camshaft peace of mind?

[GeWilli]

This thread and indeed entire discussion should be used in a psychology class as an example of how large groups of scared people act.

ZDDP is indeed a useful additive however the data points far more toward a combination of poor design and poor metallurgy. Have fun everyone throwing a little bottle of 'peace of mind' into your engine that may as well contain goat piss for all you know.

For some reason you have chosen option 2 of the following:

1. Use the OEM oil and risk having a know, detectable, fixable problem occur.

2. Add an un-certified additive to your oil, not only voiding any existing warranty but also risking this additive having an adverse affect on the millions of dollars of engineering in your oil. In doing so you risk your engine engine.

Well said.

 

[dieseldorf]

This self-blending of oils/additives and related discussion belongs at BITOG.

 

[nortones2]

beware: alchemists at work

Well said.

+1 Its not as if all ZDDP is created equal

 

[milehighassassin]

So what is the consensus?

 

[GoFaster]

Good luck with THAT!

Catalyst poisoning aside, ZDDP is "safe" at 1200 ppm-ish levels, the amounts that have traditionally been found in engine oils up until the last couple of years. Whether this will "prevent failures" or not, is not known, but in many engines OTHER than this one that also have flat-tappet lifters, it is well known that ZDDP is ESSENTIAL and if you start up a flat-tappet engine using an oil with insufficient ZDDP, there is a strong probability (but not 100%) that you will wipe out a cam lobe. Go to any hot-rod or classic car website to substantiate this!

ZDDP compatibility with other additives -> ZDDP is still present in the newer oils with those other additives, just at lower levels.

I wouldn't worry about "breaking" something by using only enough extra ZDDP to bring it to 1200 ppm NOT (significantly) MORE.

 

[SootFoot]

Is it true that in diesel engines the soot in the motor oil will tend to reduce ZDDP's ability to bond to the metal surfaces?

 

[robbinsresort]

blah blah blah

kthxbye

 

[Corbin]

This thread and indeed entire discussion should be used in a psychology class as an example of how large groups of scared people act.

ZDDP is indeed a useful additive however the data points far more toward a combination of poor design and poor metallurgy. Have fun everyone throwing a little bottle of 'peace of mind' into your engine that may as well contain goat piss for all you know.

For some reason you have chosen option 2 of the following:

1. Use the OEM oil and risk having a known, detectable, fixable problem occur.

2. Add an un-certified additive to your oil, not only voiding any existing warranty but also risking this additive having an adverse affect on the millions of dollars of engineering in your oil. In doing so you risk your engine engine.

Thread crapper indeed! I have to dissent, by and large, with this. I think that most of the people participating in this discussion so far are doing so with a healthy level of objective prudence. This is not a case of under informed people clamoring to dump a miracle snake oil into their crankcases. This is a rational discussion about a fairly proven and accepted anti-wear additive that has been shown to help the very problem we are concerned with--thus the discussion about how to best administer the additive (so far the consensus seems to be that a concentrated additive would best increase zddp without compromising the spec. oil, a concern that you mentioned.)

Agreed that this is a problem of poor design and metallurgy, but this does not remedy the fact that we, the end consumer, are apparently going to be left to our own devices to best deal with it. "Known, detectable, fixable"--also agreed, but level heads will agree that a cheap additive that helps prevents an expensive problem is preferable to monitoring and replacing cams and lifters as needed.

I think that most of us would agree that supplementing ZDDP (already present in our oil in some amount) probably does not constitute a compromise of "millions of dollars of engineering in your oil."

As for "goat piss as far as you know." Surely some of our intrepid members will provide us with VOA results of the additives in question, so that we can verify the contents of our bottled "peace of mind" before administering it to our expensive engines I will send in some ZDDPlus for analysis when I receive it and post results here.

 

[Keith_J]

Is it true that in diesel engines the soot in the motor oil will tend to reduce ZDDP's ability to bond to the metal surfaces?

Not likely. The reason it works is the intense heat when there is significant metal to metal contact where frictional heat causes it to break down, releasing the zinc and phosphorous to cover the freshly exposed surfaces, much like the zinc particles in the silver-type of antiseize. The zinc is now sacraficial instead of the steel. This prevents the eventual displacement of more steel, also called "galling".

 

[SBAtdijetta]

True, no argument there. However, the fact that the initial contact has to be made before it reaches temp means that you will get wear.

all i can say is it *seems* pretty crazy to dump a whole bunch of stuff into the oil, esp if someone is working really hard to source a VW approved oil. How can you be certain you aren't making an oil fail a test?

Good to see the oil discussions still going on around here at a high level. i'm going to try to get back up to speed before opening my big mouth much more on this...

Of course you are going to get some wear, the goal is just to reduce it some, or as much as we can.

I still see ZDDP adding protection before the start due to the cam being coated with the film (metal) it has created from the last time it ran.

This thread and indeed entire discussion should be used in a psychology class as an example of how large groups of scared people act.

People have legitimate concerns with design, metallurgy, and oil here. If ZDDP helps (which it does) why would you not consider using it.

If you are so confident in the lack of an issue, or that there is a fix, that has nothing to do with ZDDP why don't you buy a BRM PD? They are great cars BTW.

ZDDP is indeed a useful additive however the data points far more toward a combination of poor design and poor metallurgy. Have fun everyone throwing a little bottle of 'peace of mind' into your engine that may as well contain goat piss for all you know.

For some reason you have chosen option 2 of the following:

1. Use the OEM oil and risk having a known, detectable, fixable problem occur.

2. Add an un-certified additive to your oil, not only voiding any existing warranty but also risking this additive having an adverse affect on the millions of dollars of engineering in your oil. In doing so you risk your engine engine.

IF* by fixable you mean $2,000 fixable then sure... That is not how I choose to spend my hard earned cash, R&Ring a cam very 40k when it fails. Hey its fixable guys, no worries now. The solution is just R&R your cam/lifters at the same time with your air filter schedule. Problem solved.

For real though.... How do you think this is fixable?

Car(s) with new lifters from the factory have already failed. You think the lifters are the "fix"?

Interested to see your rationalization here...

As far as warraty... could care less. VW service has only touched my car one time (for a burnt relay), and once to do a fluid flush.

As for "millions of dollars of engineering in your oil" LOL money well spent there huh Moe! Total lack of ROI for those dollars. What an utter disapointment.

 

[nortones2]

Not likely. The reason it works is the intense heat when there is significant metal to metal contact where frictional heat causes it to break down, releasing the zinc and phosphorous to cover the freshly exposed surfaces, much like the zinc particles in the silver-type of antiseize. The zinc is now sacraficial instead of the steel. This prevents the eventual displacement of more steel, also called "galling".

Latest item I have come across is a paper which relates to pressure-induced glazing. The zinc structure is changed, and there appears to be a rate of pressure increase which is critical. The substrate on which the glazing takes place need to be harder than the AW coat. Query the material of the wearing surfaces at the cam tappets - anyone know? http://www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdf

Para 4.3 relates to co-additives, and their argument is that lowered ZDDP may be balanced, for example by boron based AW trace elements.

FWIW.

 

[GeWilli]

warning sarcasm ahead:

Para 4.3 relates to co-additives, and their argument is that lowered ZDDP may be balanced, for example by boron based AW trace elements.

wait, what? They are balancing the lowered amount of ZDDP with some other anti-wear additive? unbelievable.

 

[nortones2]

warning sarcasm ahead:
wait, what? They are balancing the lowered amount of ZDDP with some other anti-wear additive? unbelievable.

i hope you're not being mean GeWilli! I am not a dose-it-yourself advocate

 

[SBAtdijetta]

Para 4.3 relates to co-additives, and their argument is that lowered ZDDP may be balanced, for example by boron based AW trace elements.

warning sarcasm ahead:

wait, what? They are balancing the lowered amount of ZDDP with some other anti-wear additive? unbelievable.

Have you looked at the UOA / VOA of Castrol LLO3 507 oils? Boron huh? It is non existent and less than in other oils...(0) or (1 - which could simply be .5) So if it is not Boron... then what is it being added, IF* anything.

And is it (the additive, and reduction of ZDDP) appropriate for PD flat tappet motors? Or is it only apropriate for newer rollor motors...?

 

[nortones2]

Guessing here, but boron as a micellar calcium borate may require different analytical methods to the usual. I understand a micelle is a colloid. but anyhow, boron is but one co-additive that may be possible to supplement lowered levels of ZDDP.

 

[SBAtdijetta]

Guessing here, but boron as a micellar calcium borate may require different analytical methods to the usual. I understand a micelle is a colloid. but anyhow, boron is but one co-additive that may be possible to supplement lowered levels of ZDDP.

If so then maybe additional OA testing methods are needed.

But regardless, the lower ZDDP level oils don't seem to be performing very well, no matter what they have added to make up the difference.

 

[nortones2]

Nothing heard over here where the engines running 507.00 must be in the millions.....

 

[GeWilli]

Nothing heard over here where the engines running 507.00 must be in the millions.....

That argument didn't fly when I was suggesting that using a 0W-30 diesel specific oil might actually be better than a 5W-40.

And no, wasn't trying to be mean, trying to be funny in a sarcastic way.

Point being, early failures typically are manufacturing/assembling problems. Late failures are maintenance (ie oil) failures.

The other reason for high levels of ZDDP is service life. CJ-4 oils are generally in service way longer than automotive targeted oils. The lower zddp levels probably are acceptable in that sure they might be insufficient for a 20k mile drain interval but they should be fine for a 5-10k interval. I dunno if that makes sense or not.

Adding Boron or other AW components to the oil can certainly help, but hey. I'm thinking that the oil market is targeting factory intervals between 5-10k miles as the service life for the oil. CJ-4 oils have different requirements. I would be curious to see what the extended life euro oil content is like, but i'm guessing that it probably isn't anywhere near as high as the CJ-4 level.

I don't want to head there but boundary lubrication is a big issue here too that probably is being overlooked in the obsession with zddp.

 

[nortones2]

I can't see why your point wasn't taken. For certain uses, 0w-30 is the preferred VAG diesel oil here. But, there are terms and conditions. If the usage meets those conditions (daily mileage exceeding x, steady but not WOT running etc) then an extended OCI (up to 20,000) is possible. This does not seem to have brought a train of failures. The "equivalent" of CJ4 presumably is ACEA E for trucks - but there doesn't seem to be a clamour of pain. OC intervals of up to 60,000 are common, as I know from around 1990 when i had dealings with a large haulier - who used Audi TDI's as the management fleet There's confidence in the product. BTW, isn't the cam subject to boundary lubrication for some if not all of the time?

 

[SBAtdijetta]

Point being, early failures typically are manufacturing/assembling problems. Late failures are maintenance (ie oil) failures.

What then if people are experiencing both, early and late failures, on the same cars, with the same VAG spec oils?

Is it a parts or oil problem, or both...

 

[tditom]

if it were truly an oil problem, then it would be showing up much more than it has.

no doubt the PD design is a challenging one for the cam lobes/followers- but the 505.01 spec was created to address just that.

 

[SBAtdijetta]

if it were truly an oil problem, then it would be showing up much more than it has.

It has been showing up quite a bit. Some trusted guru's here have stated close or more than 50% of the BRM's they have inspected have had significant wear, not acceptable or typical of normal valve train wear.

Time will tell, but I don't see how this is not to some degree and oil issue.

no doubt the PD design is a challenging one for the cam lobes/followers- but the 505.01 spec was created to address just that.

That is speculation, maybe it was designed so PDs could meet future emissions requirements? (Also speculation, but if you can... so can I)

 

[nortones2]

Someone might draw up a matrix of all the possible causes for cam wear. High on the list might be mismanagement of lubrication. However we (particularly dealers) are just as likely to foul up over here! But there is little evidence of a significant problem or even a particular cause, in other parts of the world, except for the PD150. There are lots of vocal taxi drivers in PD equipped cars who would squawk if their pockets were offended. In the case of the PD150 I suspect boy racers and their juvenile optimism (it'll do, S'oil innit) as the prime cause

 

[SBAtdijetta]

Most of the PD150 failures I have read about even from such boy racers (if true) have been on spec oils. I have also read about PD130/100 failures over there as well, but not as many as the PD100 failures over here.

I hate drawling matrices... lol so it won't be me doing so.

 

[nortones2]

Didn't think you'd volunteer for that

 

[SBAtdijetta]

Didn't think you'd volunteer for that

Lol nope, that reminds me of school work too much, and I have plenty of that to do this weekend... That and sort through and make sure I got all the cam R&R parts I ordered.

 

[GoFaster]

As for "goat piss as far as you know." Surely some of our intrepid members will provide us with VOA results of the additives in question, so that we can verify the contents of our bottled "peace of mind" before administering it to our expensive engines I will send in some ZDDPlus for analysis when I receive it and post results here.

There are already analysis results for this somewhere on www.bobistheoilguy.com for ZDDPlus. Within the limits of the analysis (it isn't normally used for *extreme* concentrations as found in a concentrated additive) it is what its manufacturer claims that it is. The same can be said of Liquimoly's MoS2 additive.

There are certain other highly-touted and much more advertised oil additives that don't appear to contain anything useful (*cough* Lucas)

 

[Revolutionary_mind]

GoFaster-- i have long believed lucas oil additive to be a huge waste of money. Maybe not as much as "ZMAX", haha, but quite a waste.

tditom, I ran into a car-oblivious guy once with an 04 golf, 186,000 miles, original timing belt, "diesel 5w-30 from the duke of oil lube shop" all its life... Dumb luck?

 

[SBAtdijetta]

There are already analysis results for this somewhere on www.bobistheoilguy.com for ZDDPlus. Within the limits of the analysis (it isn't normally used for *extreme* concentrations as found in a concentrated additive) it is what its manufacturer claims that it is. The same can be said of Liquimoly's MoS2 additive.

There are certain other highly-touted and much more advertised oil additives that don't appear to contain anything useful (*cough* Lucas)

Gofaster, thanks, good to know I will go there to check it out. I was thinking about sending in a sample for testing myself, but if one is already out there...

GoFaster-- i have long believed lucas oil additive to be a huge waste of money. Maybe not as much as "ZMAX", haha, but quite a waste.

tditom, I ran into a car-oblivious guy once with an 04 golf, 186,000 miles, original timing belt, "diesel 5w-30 from the duke of oil lube shop" all its life... Dumb luck?

On the TB yes! Absurd IMHO, but the oil does not surprise me anymore.

 

[d2305]

http://www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdf