Your next car?

What fuel will your next car run on?


  • Total voters
    31

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
And Western MA. I drove out there and back today, 290 mile round trip. Given the hills, speeds of 70+, and that I was running heat, I don't think any electric would have made the trip. No charging stations on my route. Of course I didn't have to fill my TDI.
 

turbodieseldyke

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Location
Free Mustache Rides
TDI
98 jetta
Just picture a huge pile of oil and gas that one car uses over 10-20 years and belches out into the atmosphere, times a billion gas burning ICE vehicles on the roads of our home planet.
Now picture the huge pile of coal and natural gas that one power plant burns to stack electrons into a billion EV batteries.
 

Chris_TDI_98

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Location
Hartford, CT
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI 1.9L mk3 1Z AHU
Now picture the huge pile of coal and natural gas that one power plant burns to stack electrons into a billion EV batteries.
For real. Any action be it running an ICE engine or making a lithium battery, will cause there to be waste emitted, it’s just a question of what types and the quantities.

Last I heard, EV battery makers, including Tesla, is fully aware of this issue with battery making emitting CO2 and other byproducts of fossil fuel use, and is making upgrades at the gigafactory (the one making the million lithium batteries per day or whatever) to have it be powered off 100% clean zero emissions renewable energy ie solar PV panels and wind turbines.

Ways in which ICE engines are dirtier than battery electric vehicles:
1. Efficiency. ICE is around 10% efficient. The balance 90% is thrown away as heat and belched into the atmosphere as exhaust emissions.
EVs are 90-95% efficient in taking battery electric power and using it to move you point A to point B. Regen braking? The motor doesn’t need to idle at red lights?
2. Just an example, other manufacturers will catch up and offer the same. The Tesla lithium battery chemistry has gotten so good, the charge profile it can do has risen from about 5000 charge cycles to 20,000 cycles at which point it’ll still have about 80-85% of its capacity when new. That’s a well more than 10 years if you recharge daily once or twice. With ICE vehicles you’re throwing many pounds of emissions waste into the air at every tank of fuel you use.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
And how efficient is the power plant that makes the electricity? And what powers it? Natural Gas, which is a finite resource often retrieved from the earth by fracking, or coal, which has its own pollution issues? And how are the raw materials for the batteries mined, and where? How are they disposed of after their finite life?

As posted above, electric vehicles are far from pollution-free.
 

Chris_TDI_98

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Location
Hartford, CT
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI 1.9L mk3 1Z AHU
And how efficient is the power plant that makes the electricity? And what powers it? Natural Gas, which is a finite resource often retrieved from the earth by fracking, or coal, which has its own pollution issues? And how are the raw materials for the batteries mined, and where? How are they disposed of after their finite life?

As posted above, electric vehicles are far from pollution-free.
Very true.
A great overview of the pluses and minuses of the pollution profiles AND of every aspect of the ICE vs EV debate, is here:
http://m.hartfordbusiness.com/article/20181022/NEWS03/181029998
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV, 2015 Spark EV
And how efficient is the power plant that makes the electricity? And what powers it? Natural Gas, which is a finite resource often retrieved from the earth by fracking, or coal, which has its own pollution issues? And how are the raw materials for the batteries mined, and where? How are they disposed of after their finite life?
As posted above, electric vehicles are far from pollution-free.
https://content.sierraclub.org/evguide/myths-vs-reality
 

Jetta SS

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2006
Location
Grand Bay, AL
TDI
'98 Jetta
I’m guided by VW’s and Geemany’s very carefully considered decisions (they’re German and they invented diesel) to dump Diesel engine cars and replace all plans for new TDI cars entirely with the new lower cost clean safe smart MEB EV platform, giving us the ID (golf), ID Crozz (Tiguan crossover suv), ID Buzz (bus/Kombi), and of course the new ID EV names for jetta and passat.

Germany may have made the decision to end diesel. To me that's like their decision to go renewable energy back in 2000 which the government has recently deemed a failure. There will be financial consequences. This used to be a nation known for their frugality.
 

Chris_TDI_98

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Location
Hartford, CT
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI 1.9L mk3 1Z AHU
Didn’t Germany set its 100% renewable energy goal, not in 2000, but immediately after, and because of, the March 11, 2011, earthquake tsunami and subsequent Fukishima Japan nuclear disaster ?!
 
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Chris_TDI_98

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Location
Hartford, CT
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI 1.9L mk3 1Z AHU
GM wants a national target for minimum 25% EVs based on current California regulations!
Ford global partnership with VW to save both billions!
Tesla shares massive improvement in self driving visual identification of pedestrians and objects for safety!
https://youtu.be/upKSE3UtNqM
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
Gee, I wonder how biased the "Sierra Club" is, with references from:
Union of Concerned Scientists
Natural Resources Defense Council
Touchstone Energy Cooperative
Plug In America
SolarChargedDriving.org

And all of those references are from 2010, 2011, and 2012. Old news.

The article is more of an advertisement than an actual paper, especially with little documentation and scientific data. They make many suppositions

No thanks. Here in Maine with the lack of available charging, the longest commute in the country, and a cold weather state, EV's aren't viable except to those retired or with very short commutes. Forget trying to power them with solar most of the year (unless you grossly oversize the solar array) due to the lack of available sunlight and angle of incidence.

I always find it funny how people say 'people don't want diesel', which is akin to 'people don't want standard shift vehicles', when there is such a constant call for them. People have to settle for what they are offered, not what they want. I have been waiting for a diesel Kia Sorento for over a year but it's still caught up in the Kalifornia testing morass and may not happen. Thankfully the Nissa CX-5 is available in a diesel but I am looking for a mid sized SUV, and until I find one I'll keep my DD. I want a diesel for the towing AND fuel economy but most people here only relate diesels to economy since they're in small cars.

As someone who frequents other countries often, there is no way diesels are going anywhere but forward. The vast majority of cars and regular vehicles I've seen are diesel.

And my thought is the people comparing EV's to diesel are comparing the current EV's to old diesels, not the new ones.
 
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0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
well just sold my B4V last night...an emptiness soon followed....but I require 4x4/AWD more than MPGs as military/national guard retirement has reduced my frequent long road trips in favor of more frequent weekends on the beach (down here you drive on the beach)

next purchase is leaning towards a mid 90's XJ....sadly they don't offer a diesel...maybe a TDI swap if the 4.0 ever dies, though unlikely as they are bullet proof..

if only syncro wagon diesels were easy to locate...or used Touareg prices come down
 

john.jackson9213

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Location
Miramar, Ca. (Think Top Gun)
TDI
1996 B4V
Just my recent experience as a ex B4V owner:

Just spent a 4 day weekend in Palm Springs, CA. Used my 2018 Volt for the trip. My first 50 miles were all electric. The balance of the trip was all gasoline. Total gas only miles, 316.2. Gas filled when I got home was 7.891 gallons for 40.07 mpg. That includes 3 days of City driving in Palm Springs. Total fuel costs were essentially identical to what I would have spent with the B4, maybe even a touch less.

My point is not to convert anyone. This is my solution that works for me and my situation. There is no one size fits all solution.

But for me, the 3 year lease at $254 per month sure beats the cost of operation on the B4 for the last few years. Fuel costs were only a small part of B4 costs, as we all know.
 

john.jackson9213

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2007
Location
Miramar, Ca. (Think Top Gun)
TDI
1996 B4V
There was a mid '90's XJ offered with a factory diesel, they're just rare. Someone I know has one.

Mid 80's both Cherokee and Comanche were offered in the U.S. with factory 2.1 TurboDiesel (1985-1987). Nothing in the U.S. after that. I searched for a number of years to find my 1986 Jeep Comanche factory diesel so I could do my TDI conversion project.
 

0die

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2012
Location
corpus christi, tx
TDI
1996 Passat wagon B4V
the 2.1 was a Renault motor...POS from what I've read...

Cummins B4T and 617 Mercs are what most swap in from what I've seen...I would personaly lean towards the Merc. I've had 2 123 series Mercedes with the 617 motor...it's one of the most indestructible engine ever built, very simple, no electronics and parts super easy to find and cheap...
 

ketchupshirt88

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
i retired the B4 and now drive an A4 jetta... while the engine is great, the mounting annoys me (ALOT) when i have to do a timing belt, which is roughly every other year for me.

the car is much more refined, for an economy car, but is also much less spacious... i hated it when i first switched but its been a good daily so far and i will likely replace it with another from someplace further south when the time comes.

If i had the $$$, id rather do an AWD VW/AUDI swap instead, but another FWD A4/B5 would suite me fine.

My wife has an older prius (2007) right now and plans to replace it with a 2015+ in about a year. Her prius is a great "appliance" car to get from A to B but its boring to drive... and my clapped out TDIs have all beaten her average MPG...

She had a TDI, it wasnt a good one (previous owner damage, most of it hidden by dealer) and we were both glad to see it get hauled away by Fix_Until_Broke for parts...
 

Chris_TDI_98

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2012
Location
Hartford, CT
TDI
1998 Jetta TDI 1.9L mk3 1Z AHU
In my humble opinion, TDI lovers should also appreciate the heck out of EVs!

Maybe eventually, all of us will own at least one TDI (except those who have said bye to their TDI for good reasons), and one EV!

Both TDI and EV are extremely powerful yet frugal cars and intended to achieve the highest level of economic value for us the owners, they’re very well aligned. Not identical, each has one or two advantages over the other, while scoring very highly overall.

It’d be really great and fun time, for all adventurous TDIclub members to go by yourself and schedule a test drive of an EV of your choosing, literally any brand any model, and come back here, share pictures, video, and your unique personal opinion of your driving experience. I got a feeling it’s going to be a good time!
 
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El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV, 2015 Spark EV
Carvana dropped off my new (to me) 2015 Spark EV today. :D
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
In my humble opinion, TDI lovers should also appreciate the heck out of EVs!
I bought a Jetta TDI because it was one of the most efficient cars on the road at the time. I bought a Tesla... for very much the same reason :)

The road trip issue is so over blown. I can easily cover >1000 miles in less than a day. Now that Superchargers are so abundant the road trips in my Tesla are actually quicker than they were in the Jetta since when my fuel was diesel I was compelled to maintain an efficient ~60 mph... now-a-days I can easily sustain >80mpge doing ~75mph :cool:
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
That may be but I'm still unwilling to risk the fueling to someone else. About the time you need a recharge is about the time the charging station is broken or out of service for some reason. Or even worse the weather has taken the charging stations down and you're stuck in Indiana with nowhere to go.
I've clocked well over >50k miles and >100 fast charges on Teslas network and not once was I unable to get the charge that I needed. Each Tesla Supercharger is at least 2 independent charging cabinets. New installs are at least 4. Each cabinet in comprised of 12 modules. It would take several failures for a supercharger to stop working. Some even incorporate a battery so unlike a gas station even a power outage won't kill it.

The subsidies that Tesla receives is a rounding error compared to the subsidies the oil and gas industry gets. Don't forget... one of the things that VW got into trouble over with regards to diesel gate was the subsidies they received for 'clean' diesels....
 

turbodieseldyke

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2010
Location
Free Mustache Rides
TDI
98 jetta
The subsidies that Tesla receives is a rounding error compared to the subsidies the oil and gas industry gets.
ROFL, understatement. The gov may give subsidies and tax rebates, but I highly doubt they will ever waste lives and trillions of $$ to invade another continent multiple times, just to prop up the EV industry.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
It'll be interesting to see how Tesla fares as the federal government phases out tax credits to purchasers.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
ROFL, understatement. The gov may give subsidies and tax rebates, but I highly doubt they will ever waste lives and trillions of $$ to invade another continent multiple times, just to prop up the EV industry.
This ^^^

It'll be interesting to see how Tesla fares as the federal government phases out tax credits to purchasers.
Given that the cost of EVs is falling faster than tax credits are phasing out the sales of EVs should keep increasing because... math. You can now get a new Tesla for $46k before any tax credits. A new LEAF with a 150 mile range is ~$30k.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Given that the cost of EVs is falling faster than tax credits are phasing out the sales of EVs should keep increasing because... math. You can now get a new Tesla for $46k before any tax credits. A new LEAF with a 150 mile range is ~$30k.
Model 3 was originally marketed as a $35K car. 2018 Nissan Leaf costs about the same as a 2015. These cars (and the Chevy Bolt) are significantly more expensive than a comparable ICE car. For example, a 2018 Golf 1.8T is about $23K. Math isn't really advantaging electrics.

As an aside, crude is in the longest price slide since 1984.

One more thing: Model 3 reservation cancellations have been exceeding new car orders for a while.
 
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Rob Mayercik

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Location
NJ, U.S.A.
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS, Baltic Green/Beige
In a way, ICE vehicles are subsidizing EVs - since pure EVs don't buy fuel, they don't pay highway taxes.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Model 3 was originally marketed as a $35K car. 2018 Nissan Leaf costs about the same as a 2015. These cars (and the Chevy Bolt) are significantly more expensive than a comparable ICE car. For example, a 2018 Golf 1.8T is about $23K. Math isn't really advantaging electrics.

As an aside, crude is in the longest price slide since 1984.

One more thing: Model 3 reservation cancellations have been exceeding new car orders for a while.
A 2018 Golft 1.8T is a couple leagues lower than a $46k Model 3; The Math supports a $46k EV as much as it supports any $46k car. There's a reason the Model 3 is now the best selling car in the US by revenue. Parity with ICE is expected by 2025. What will be interesting is after parity when not only is the cost of ownership a fraction of ICE but even the upfront cost is lower.

In a way, ICE vehicles are subsidizing EVs - since pure EVs don't buy fuel, they don't pay highway taxes.
I'd love to see a combo bill. ~$50/ton revenue neutral carbon fee + $0.02/mile road tax. Everyone pays for the external costs of operating their car.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
You're right that more worthy competitors for the Model 3 are probably the Audi A4 and BMW 3-series, which are closer in price but still less expensive. And the Model 3's build quality issues are notorious.

I like the Model 3, at least in theory. I have trouble getting past the styling, especially the nose. And I don't think I'd adjust well to not having any instruments in front of me. I prefer the Chevy Bolt for a number of reasons. However, I probably won't own one: it's hard to make the math work when compared to a 16 year-old TDI.

And say what you will about the supercharger network: I'm driving to Wisconsin next week and, leaving from near Boston, won't have to stop for fuel until I'm past Cleveland. You can't convince me that doesn't save time.
 
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