Yet another dealer uses wrong oil in PD

[d2305]

I wonder if there is any difference between the Syntec and the 505.01 other than the bottle.

 

[oilhammer]

Yes, there is. Not scientific but it is a different color and has a different smell. It would be silly to go through all the trouble to transport and market a different bottle if the oil inside is the same.

 

[wny_pat]

With the VW stealerships continuing to make this MIX-UP, I think we should be talking about it here. Some dealers have no idea what oil specs are for the new PD!

 

[d2305]

You're right they are different:
Syntec 505.00
iron 4
Aluminum 2

Magnesium 1118
Calcium 1287
Phosphorus 939
Zinc 1175
Sodium 13
Silicone 2

Vi 40c 81
Vi 100c 14.3
Vi Index 184
TAN 2.02
TBN 9.07


Castrol 505.01
Fe 1ppm
Detergent/Dispersant Additives:

Mg, 8 ppm
Ca, 2361 ppm

Anti Wear/Oxidation Inhibitors

P, 1045 ppm
Zn, 1270 ppm

Si, 1 ppm - antifoam additive

Friction Modifiers:

Boron, 0 ppm
Moly, 0 ppm

TBN/ASTM D-4739, 12.15

 

[BobH]

Hey everyone I appreciate all the concern and advise... never thought this post would generate so much excitement! I contacted VW of America on Friday (left a message and they did call back and seemed very concerned) and will express my concerns on Monday when I speak to them again. I will also bring up the good points from this discussion and see how they respond.

Yes I got a free polo shirt... and it is a nice shirt

... but this did not just make everything better or make me change my mind. The shirt was because I complained about having to bring the car back to the shop again do to a dealer screw-up. Basically, I won't be taking my car back there again. Since they at least tried to fix the problem I will stop bad-mouthing them. I mean even the best of us can make mistakes (I have made even worse ones myself).

As far as all this crazy talk about serious and permanent extensive damage to the entire engine...this is only the injection system we're talking about! Maybe an extended warranty on the injection system would be in line, but a complete powertrain warrenty? Isn't that is a bit unreasonable? I will have an invoice clearly showing the wrong oil was used, and a phone call to VWA (i'll see if I can get them to email or fax me something), so if something fails with the injection system due to poor lubrication after the warranty is up then I will clearly have something to go on. It may help, it may not. If this "special oil issue" is really this critical then we are going to see a lot of other pissed of VW customers before I have any problems. For example, what about all those other poor suckers that have no idea what the dealer (or the quickie lube) is putting in the car!

 

[oilhammer]

I do not think I'd lose any sleep over it, they remedied the problem and you didn't drive the car but for a little bit.

All the dealers get the same new-model information, all the same access to the same information, etc. It is on an individual level that service can be good or bad.

I have worked at a dealership that knew all the oil specifics, but typically did not adhere to them because most people would whine about the cost. Also, the dealerships by and large are still in the "you must change your oil every 3000 miles" mindset, which we all know is silly and outdated. Heck, even the Honda dealer has brainwashed my Dad into thinking his new Element needs to have its oil changed every 3750 miles! This even though it clearly states in the manual every 7500, and my Sister's new Civic says every 10,000!

Bottom line: if you do not know if the correct oil will be used, buy it yourself and leave it on the front seat for them (or whoever) or do it yourself.

It truly is wrong that a dealership does not know their own vehicles, but it happens all the time. Where I worked we were selling so many Volkswagens that the Nissan techs sometimes had to service Volkswagens because the VW techs were so busy on PDIs...countless Volkswagens I'm sure got totally screwed up because of that!!!

 

[TornadoRed]

I'm overreacting? I think you're underreacting.

I think there's a lot of over-reacting going on in this thread.

Use the wrong motor oil for 50k miles? Bad.
Use the wrong motor oil for 20k miles? Not good.
Use the wrong motor oil for 1k miles? Possible harmful effects, maybe apparent 100k miles afterward.

Use the wrong motor oil for 100 miles? Zip. Zero. Nada. No damage measurable or unmeasurable. Especially if the wrong oil was a high-quality 5w40 synthetic oil.

That said, I think I would have asked for a ballcap, too, in addition to the polo shirt.

 

[Frank M]

Bob, you are a very reasonable person...

I admire the way you are handling this..

 

[Braindead.]

countless Volkswagens I'm sure got totally screwed up because of that!!!

I don't know what's worse, a VW tech working on a Volkswagen, or a Nissan tech working on a Volkswagen!

 

[oilhammer]

countless Volkswagens I'm sure got totally screwed up because of that!!!

I don't know what's worse, a VW tech working on a Volkswagen, or a Nissan tech working on a Volkswagen!

Ha, trust me, a Nissan tech! Although it is quite funny to watch...

 

[tjl]

Where I worked we were selling so many Volkswagens that the Nissan techs sometimes had to service Volkswagens because the VW techs were so busy on PDIs...countless Volkswagens I'm sure got totally screwed up because of that!!!

Couldn't the Nissan techs read instructions when servicing non-Nissan cars? While it may take them more time to do a job on an unfamiliar car, especially the first time, wouldn't careful reading of instructions in service manuals and TSBs get them through the job? Of course, if they are under heavy time pressure, cutting the wrong corners (like not looking up and using the correct oil or coolant) may create problems.

 

[oilhammer]

Where I worked we were selling so many Volkswagens that the Nissan techs sometimes had to service Volkswagens because the VW techs were so busy on PDIs...countless Volkswagens I'm sure got totally screwed up because of that!!!

Couldn't the Nissan techs read instructions when servicing non-Nissan cars? While it may take them more time to do a job on an unfamiliar car, especially the first time, wouldn't careful reading of instructions in service manuals and TSBs get them through the job? Of course, if they are under heavy time pressure, cutting the wrong corners (like not looking up and using the correct oil or coolant) may create problems.

...in short, No, they could not. Union guys, reading isn't in their contract. They would just as soon light a Volkswagen on fire than change a light bulb.

It always amazed me just how lazy those guys were. Sad, really, but most of them were thinking about fishing or beer or whatever they were going to do that weekend...not about the cars they were getting paid to service.

The Volkswagen guys were not like that. That may be because 2 of them were not from th USA, so they didn't understand why anyone would not want to do the job as best they could and absorb as much info about the cars as they could to do their job better. In fact, all 4 of the VW techs including myself all drove Volkswagens...and were enthusiasts to boot!

...the Nissan guys drove American Pickups and drank a lot of beer and smoked a lot of cancer sticks

 

[RichC]

I think what I find most amazing is that the warning from VW are so strongly written, yet the VW Service Tech's are then so poorly warned, trained and supervised. If it is that big a deal wouldn't you think that a few heads would roll and the message would get to the techs at VW? I can see the independents missing this but its not like this the first time we've heard this story.

 

[Davin]

As far as all this crazy talk about serious and permanent extensive damage to the entire engine...this is only the injection system we're talking about! Maybe an extended warranty on the injection system would be in line, but a complete powertrain warrenty? Isn't that is a bit unreasonable?

FYI, the injectors are driven by the camshaft, and the pressure at the cam/injector interface is the driver for the 505.01 requirement.

If there's a catastrophic failure of the camshaft due to the use of improper oil, it could mess up much more than the injection system. If the camshaft siezes or there are bits of metal flying around under the valve cover, it's not inconcievable that you could bend valves and/or damage pistons.

Even if there's no damage to the valvetrain or pistons, just replacing the cam and injectors would be a TON of $$$. PD injectors are about $800 each IIRC.

 

[swartzentruber]

Bottom line: if you do not know if the correct oil will be used, buy it yourself and leave it on the front seat for them (or whoever) or do it yourself.

Believe it or not, some dealers can even screw that up. My wife took in the Passat we used to own to a local VW dealership with 4 qts of Mobil 1 5W-30 on the front seat. That we would be supplying oil was mentioned when making the appt, as well as well as when the car was dropped off. When the car was returned, there sat the 4 qts. Needless to day, we haven't been back to that dealership.

 

[RogueTDI]

Very serious and very expensive damage has been done, and the dealer needs to be held accountable.

We all know that with proper maintenance we should get 300,000+ miles out of our TDIs. So a few years from now, BobH needs a total rebuild at 100,000 and his New Vehicle Warranty has long since expired. He thinks to himself "Hey, Dealer X messed up my oil change 5 years ago. I'm going to have them pay for my rebuild". He contacts them and is told their parts and labor warranty is only valid for 12 months from the original service date.

It sickens me that the dealer would take advantage of BobH's obvious good nature, and buy him off with a polo shirt that probably cost $12.

Dealerships have insurance to cover damage caused by their poor workmanship. Let them use it. Let them pay the increased premiums. Let the mechanic look for another job. Who know's how many other oil changes he's messed up?

I'd be fighting for a new car, or new engine, or at least, a very extended warranty on the powertrain.

you have no case.
you can not show any damage done.
You are over reacting.
If you were in my shop with this attitude you would never get an appointment with me again.

Hahaha.

What gall.

I think you just did yourself a diservice. I would never want to go to YOUR shop, and I'd not recommend your shop to friends.

 

[RogueTDI]

I'm overreacting? I think you're underreacting.

I think there's a lot of over-reacting going on in this thread.

Use the wrong motor oil for 50k miles? Bad.
Use the wrong motor oil for 20k miles? Not good.
Use the wrong motor oil for 1k miles? Possible harmful effects, maybe apparent 100k miles afterward.

Use the wrong motor oil for 100 miles? Zip. Zero. Nada. No damage measurable or unmeasurable. Especially if the wrong oil was a high-quality 5w40 synthetic oil.

That said, I think I would have asked for a ballcap, too, in addition to the polo shirt.

With all due respect, and yes I agree there is a lot of hyper-reaction here, this statement just isnt justified.

The fact is, any reasonable person reading the manual HAS to assume that ANY amount of oil for ANY amount of driving WILL cause definite unknown damage to the engine.

There is NO basis for deciding that 100 miles or 1000 miles or any mileage is "safe."

I would be pissed about this, and I would make DAMN sure that, at the very least, I received written verification of what exactly had been done to the engine, for later use in court should the engine develop a problem and VW refuse to honor its warranty. That is a reasonable and prudent thing to do.

VW goes through the trouble of making the seriousness of this issue very clear to its vehicle owners. I see NO problem in making sure their own service personnel act with the same level of seriousness.

 

[Frank M]

[No message]

 

[Blue Camel]

Thats what I like. No cheapees, complainers, know it alls and whiners.

I'm not sure who your sarcastic comments are aimed at Frank, but I sure hope it's not me.

I never claimed to be a know-it-all. I never once offered my uneducated opinion regarding potential damage, as you have in your downplaying of the situation. I'm guilty of quoting from the VW owner's manual and under-hood warning label. BTW I have read over my owner's manual again, and I can't find the blurb that states "very serious and very expensive damage with sustained use" that you seem to think applies to this situation.


As far as cheapees go, BobH has chosen to pay more to have his car properly serviced at an Authorized VW Service Center, as I do, because we expect to get knowlegable, professional and qualified service.

Bringing VW's warnings about "very serious and very expensive damage" to BobH's attention, hardly qualifies me, or anyone else as a complainer or whiner.

There is no need to have to put up with it as there are plenty of customers that are reasonable.

Is it unreasonable to expect a VW Authorized Dealer to handle a simple service correctly? Is it unreasonable to expect them to stand behind their work? Isn't that what we pay for? Is it unreasonable to demand that they pay for damage that they've caused through their negligence? Or is that just whining and complaining?

What would you say to a VW dealer, whose car jockey drives over a parking block with your car causing extensive damage to the undercarriage, and then says "Hey, mistakes happen. Your problem. Besides the car is still driveable and the damage can't be seen. Have a nice day and here's your free shirt."

I surely hope you wouldn't start whining and complaining.

 

[fredb]

ad nauseum

.

 

[oilhammer]

I think someone farted in my Passat during the PDI. I want a free shirt and a letter that if my leather seats fall apart in 10 years Volkswagen will give me a new car, and another new shirt because I'll probably be bigger in the midsection by then.

(this was said in jest, because this thread needs a lighter side...it's just oil, just a car, not the end of the world

)

 

[Blue Camel]

this thread needs a lighter side...it's just oil, just a car, not the end of the world

)

True! In fact, I've done my own testing, and in a comparison between VW 505.00 and VW 505.01, I really can't say I can taste much difference. But I'd say the 505.00 is less filling.

 

[gardentender]

actually, i think the subject of this thread is now about technicians that don't care about a mistake, take no responsibility for it and hold in contempt those who hold them accountable.

enjoy retirement, and please, don't work on aircraft or take care of small children.

 

[danski0224]

...in short, No, they could not. Union guys, reading isn't in their contract. They would just as soon light a Volkswagen on fire than change a light bulb.

Laziness and the inability to read has nothing to do with being a union member or not!

 

[oilhammer]

...in short, No, they could not. Union guys, reading isn't in their contract. They would just as soon light a Volkswagen on fire than change a light bulb.

Laziness and the inability to read has nothing to do with being a union member or not!

You'd have to explain that to them... they'll have time soon for that, as they are going on strike AGAIN. Boy I love when they do that, I win over customers like crazy

I do understand what you are saying, but remember stereotypes exist for a reason. I was there. I was a Union member. And I could not fit in because I did not fit the stereotype. The Nissan techs did...to a T! We had a guy absolutely REFUSE to work on a 1988 Nissan Pickup because it wsa too old! So I offered to take a look...inside of 5 minutes I had the optical sensor in the distributor diagnosed (common problem on the K24 engine), and another 30 minutes and the truck was fixed, running, ready to be picked up. Piece of cake! Then, the A-hole wanted to file a grievance with the union rep because a VW tech fixed a Nissan...THAT HE REFUSED TO WORK ON!!!!!

 

[RogueTDI]

Haha.

Union guys?

I would never let any auto techs work on my car if I knew they were union. Tells me they are selfish dinks more worried about their benefits than doing a good job.

I just generally have little respect for any union or their members in this day - they just arent needed anymore, and actually create a lot more problems than they prevent. But, getting OT.

 

[BobH]

So here's the update. Called VWofA customer service number and told the nice lady my story. I asked if I could talk to someone in engineering or something to verify that 100 miles with the wrong oil would not have done permanent damage that I need to be concerned about. She could not help me with that request, but asked a supervisor and this person was aware of this issue (apparently others have called). They seemed genuinely concerned and told me that 100 miles will not be a problem, but just in case I ever do have any problems caused by the wrong oil I will be covered. They asked me to fax the service invoices (showing wrong oil and then right oil) and so they could "put it in my file." Once they get my faxes I will get a confirmation of this conversation.

 

[RogueTDI]

So here's the update. Called VWofA customer service number and told the nice lady my story. I asked if I could talk to someone in engineering or something to verify that 100 miles with the wrong oil would not have done permanent damage that I need to be concerned about. She could not help me with that request, but asked a supervisor and this person was aware of this issue (apparently others have called). They seemed genuinely concerned and told me that 100 miles will not be a problem, but just in case I ever do have any problems caused by the wrong oil I will be covered. They asked me to fax the service invoices (showing wrong oil and then right oil) and so they could "put it in my file." Once they get my faxes I will get a confirmation of this conversation.

Good job. Glad to hear.

 

[b1powered]

So here's the update. Called VWofA customer service number and told the nice lady my story. I asked if I could talk to someone in engineering or something to verify that 100 miles with the wrong oil would not have done permanent damage that I need to be concerned about. She could not help me with that request, but asked a supervisor and this person was aware of this issue (apparently others have called). They seemed genuinely concerned and told me that 100 miles will not be a problem, but just in case I ever do have any problems caused by the wrong oil I will be covered. They asked me to fax the service invoices (showing wrong oil and then right oil) and so they could "put it in my file." Once they get my faxes I will get a confirmation of this conversation.

<font color="red"> Unfortunately I get the feeling that you wont get the gold mine....................you'll probably get the shaft!

Funny how VW expressly states the use of 505.01.........BUT..........says maybe it is "ok" for a while???

WTH!!!??? </font>

 

[gbangs]

Not to throw another monkey wrench into the works...

But if this ever went to court over a failed engine, I can just see them (VWoA lawyers that is) wiggle out of the warranty because you, the owner, failed to read the invoice and notice the wrong oil before driving off of the service lot.