Yet another dealer uses wrong oil in PD

BobH

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May 6, 2003
Location
Woodbury, CT
TDI
Jetta Wagon, 2004
Had the oil changed yesterday in my 04 Jetta at the local VW dealer and noticed today when I reviewed the service invoice in more detail the oil seemed a bit cheap - 4.95/qt. It was something around $7/qt last time I got it changed. The part number is ZVW-352-540-S and a quick search of TDIClub found a thread which matched this part no to Castrol syntec (505.00). Wonderful. Glad to see that the chick at the service counter at Valenti VW in Watertown, CT who took my keys communicated my specific request to use 505.01 to the guys in back...

Back to the dealer tomorrow...
 

RogueTDI

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Had the oil changed yesterday in my 04 Jetta at the local VW dealer and noticed today when I reviewed the service invoice in more detail the oil seemed a bit cheap - 4.95/qt. It was something around $7/qt last time I got it changed. The part number is ZVW-352-540-S and a quick search of TDIClub found a thread which matched this part no to Castrol syntec (505.00). Wonderful. Glad to see that the chick at the service counter at Valenti VW in Watertown, CT who took my keys communicated my specific request to use 505.01 to the guys in back...

Back to the dealer tomorrow...
Really, really disgraceful.

VW is potentially BLOWING the diesel revolution that is in the palm of their hand.


And note that VW supposedly says to NOT EVEN TOP OFF with non-505.01, apparently for fear of contamination with whatever's in the 505.00 that wont work in PDs. Check the manual, and some of the recent threads here (in lubes and PD sections). I imagine if that's the case, you might want to ask them to flush the engine with 505.01 oil before finally filling. Otherwise, make sure to get something in writing about the fact that they DID NOT flush, etc., according to VW recommendations. That way, you'll have something against them if you need warranty repairs later. I guess the receipt you already got (showing the wrong oil) would in itself go a long way towards demonstrating a problem, should it arise. But I wouldnt take a chance, and if the VW dealer gives any credence to VW technical service bulletins (and why shouldnt they!), they ought to flush the engine with 505.01, per the fact that NO non-505.01 should be in the engine.
 

Snide

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Hammonds Plains, NS, Canada
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I imagine if that's the case, you might want to ask them to flush the engine with 505.01 oil before finally filling. Otherwise, make sure to get something in writing about the fact that they DID NOT flush, etc., according to VW recommendations. That way, you'll have something against them if you need warranty repairs later.
I would deffinitly recomend doing this aswell. If I may also offer this - you won't get anywhere with the service counter people, you should immediatly ask for the Service Manager or the General Manager of the dealership.

Best Of Luck!
 

Bayou

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Location
Louisiana
And note that VW supposedly says to NOT EVEN TOP OFF with non-505.01, apparently for fear of contamination with whatever's in the 505.00 that wont work in PDs.
Maybe not. The Motul oil I just got says clearly that it meets BOTH 505.01 and 505.00 specs. So it seems unlikely that there is something in the 505.00 formula that is harmful to PD engines.

Sounds to me more likely that 505.00 lacks something that 505.01 ads.

Is my logic sound here?
 

gardentender

RIP, Gone But Not Forgotten
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your logic appears sound.
the higher spec oil is probably okay to use in lieu of the lower spec oil,
but you cannot get the lower spec oil to perform as well as the higher spec.

sorta like some software versions ,

oh, never mind!
 

RogueTDI

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And note that VW supposedly says to NOT EVEN TOP OFF with non-505.01, apparently for fear of contamination with whatever's in the 505.00 that wont work in PDs.
Maybe not. The Motul oil I just got says clearly that it meets BOTH 505.01 and 505.00 specs. So it seems unlikely that there is something in the 505.00 formula that is harmful to PD engines.

Sounds to me more likely that 505.00 lacks something that 505.01 ads.

Is my logic sound here?
OK. I just read it somewhere in all these 505.01 oil threads - it was stated somewhere pretty clearly - DO NOT TOP OFF WITH ANYTHING BUT 505.01. Maybe I'll dig for it, but I'm pretty sure it was a statement from VW or the PD owner manual. I was suprised too, but I know I read it here somewhere in the last few days.

EDIT: Here it is:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=778307

Here too:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=776803

Look at the pictures straight out of the/a manual.

Here's a technical bulletin:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=776621
 

b1powered

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95' powerstroke,y2k Cummins ISB,98' jetta TDi, 03' Jetta TDi auto
<font color="red">

Have your motor changed immediately as it is totally destroyed. NON-505.01 oils can't lube correctly even for a few seconds of operation.
Permanent engine damage has been dome to the injection system and will fail at any time now "potentially causing bodily injury or death".

It's probably not safe to drive it back to VW.


Make them tow it back to change the oil out!!! </font>
 

BobH

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May 6, 2003
Location
Woodbury, CT
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Jetta Wagon, 2004
Well, its not like the car is going to explode, although when reading the oil warning you might think it would. I mean, running out of fuel while crossing over some train tracks could also result in bodily "injury or death".

Anyway, the dealer was very receptive upon my return today. They promptly took my car into the shop and changed the oil and filter and apologized for the inconvenience. The service manager even gave me a free VW polo shirt. I am satisfied now and would like to think it was an unfortunate mistake... to bad it had to happen to my car though...

I am very skeptical that any serious damage could be done driving with the wrong oil for a couple days, especially since the "wrong oil" is still a high quality synthetic.
 

RogueTDI

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Well, its not like the car is going to explode, although when reading the oil warning you might think it would. I mean, running out of fuel while crossing over some train tracks could also result in bodily "injury or death".

Anyway, the dealer was very receptive upon my return today. They promptly took my car into the shop and changed the oil and filter and apologized for the inconvenience. The service manager even gave me a free VW polo shirt. I am satisfied now and would like to think it was an unfortunate mistake... to bad it had to happen to my car though...

I am very skeptical that any serious damage could be done driving with the wrong oil for a couple days, especially since the "wrong oil" is still a high quality synthetic.
Youre decision. But I think a functioning engine is more valuable than a tee shirt.

And I wouldnt take those warnings lightly - they are quite explicit, and almost certainly for good reason. Then again, some PD owners have apparently driven a fair amount on non-505.01 oil - check with them.

Good luck with it.
 

BobH

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Location
Woodbury, CT
TDI
Jetta Wagon, 2004
What else could you expect the dealer to do? Replace the engine with a new one? I think their response was very professional. Based on my previous negative experience, I was pleasently surprised.

As far as I can tell from other threads, the use of the wrong oil will cause premature wear of only the injection system (although on a PD that's probably the most expensive engine component!) I am definitly hanging onto my service invoice in case something injection-related fails in the near (or distant) future
 

gardentender

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it appears the car was not driven very far on the wrong oil, so yes, the engine will not explode.

yes, another oil change and filter helped. but is that enough?

yet another oil and filter change SOON would not be foolish. it goes to flushing out even more of the wrong oil without going to the engine replacement extreme. even if YOU pay for this third oil change, it is better than just blithely motoring along for a year or two . . .

did the dealer document that the wrong oil was used as the reason for their apologetic oil/filter change? did they document the second oil change? unless it is documented unambiguously, all the nice talk and free tee shirts won't help you if the engine exhibits lubrication/wear problems in the distant future. the dealer is probably verrrry relieved that you haven't been tougher with them and that the free oil change and tee shirt satisfies you.

Safeguard that first invoice with the wrong oil part number (with a documented specification for that part number) and Have the Oil Changed Again.
 

Frank M

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what if they say they just marked it wrong on your invoice?
and they leave it in...
 

Blue Camel

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Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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2006 Jetta
I would be going back to the dealer and returning the free shirt and the car!

Here is an excerpt from my '04 Passat TDI-PD's owner's manual:
"If you use engine oil that does not conform to Volkswagen Oil Standard 505 01, very serious and very expensive damage to your vehicle's engine will occur. Engine damage caused by using the wrong engine oil will not be covered by your Limited New Vehicle Warranty."

It doesn't say "can occur" or "may occur". It clearly states that damage "will occur".
Even if you've only driven a short distance with the wrong oil, your engine has sustained "very serious and very expensive damage". Even if the car hadn't been driven at all, without a complete flush there will still be traces of the wrong oil in your engine. Considering VW specifically says not to top off with oil that doesn't meet the 505 01 specification, then, even a small percentage of the wrong oil in the total volume is enough to cause "very serious and very expensive damage".

Maybe you won't experience complete engine failure, but you can be certain that the servicable life of your engine has been significantly shortened.

That had better be a damn nice shirt.
 

Frank M

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I think they did what we would expect from a professional....
I would rest easy and also keep the invoice to CYA in case some injection related failure occurs in the future.
 

03_01_TDI

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I would absolutly keep that invoice to prove that it had happened.

A letter to the BBB and to VWoA is also in order.

I doubt that the engine will break in the next 100 miles but your engine lifespan according to VW has been shortened. I can almost without a doubt say that if VW has a PD engine in for warranty work and they think or know that the wrong oil had been used VW will not honor the warranty.

I would be in small claims court with that owners manual. Such terms as the other tdiclub member posted in BOLD are very very strong words in the court.
 

gardentender

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I think they did what we would expect from a professional....
if they were "professional", it wouldn't have happened in the first place.

would we all be so charitable if it had been a doctor/hospital transfusing you with the wrong type blood?
 

Frank M

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if they were "professional", it wouldn't have happened in the first place.

would we all be so charitable if it had been a doctor/hospital transfusing you with the wrong type blood?
some of us would...

some of us have made mistakes at work too..
 

Blue Camel

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some of us have made mistakes at work too..
Agreed. Some of us have made mistakes at work. This isn't about whether people make mistakes or not. It's about being accountable.

With Volkswagen's knowledge of the PD engine and the oil that's required to lubricate it, they make no bones about it. They go as far as to say "...very serious and very expensive damage will occur" . They also state that now that we've been warned they won't honour the New Vehicle warranty if the wrong oil is used. They don't care if the dealer put it in, your independent mechanic put it in, or if you did it yourself. IT WON'T BE COVERED! PERIOD!

Very serious and very expensive damage has been done, and the dealer needs to be held accountable.

We all know that with proper maintenance we should get 300,000+ miles out of our TDIs. So a few years from now, BobH needs a total rebuild at 100,000 and his New Vehicle Warranty has long since expired. He thinks to himself "Hey, Dealer X messed up my oil change 5 years ago. I'm going to have them pay for my rebuild". He contacts them and is told their parts and labor warranty is only valid for 12 months from the original service date.

It sickens me that the dealer would take advantage of BobH's obvious good nature, and buy him off with a polo shirt that probably cost $12.

Dealerships have insurance to cover damage caused by their poor workmanship. Let them use it. Let them pay the increased premiums. Let the mechanic look for another job. Who know's how many other oil changes he's messed up?

I'd be fighting for a new car, or new engine, or at least, a very extended warranty on the powertrain.
 

Frank M

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Very serious and very expensive damage has been done, and the dealer needs to be held accountable.

We all know that with proper maintenance we should get 300,000+ miles out of our TDIs. So a few years from now, BobH needs a total rebuild at 100,000 and his New Vehicle Warranty has long since expired. He thinks to himself "Hey, Dealer X messed up my oil change 5 years ago. I'm going to have them pay for my rebuild". He contacts them and is told their parts and labor warranty is only valid for 12 months from the original service date.

It sickens me that the dealer would take advantage of BobH's obvious good nature, and buy him off with a polo shirt that probably cost $12.

Dealerships have insurance to cover damage caused by their poor workmanship. Let them use it. Let them pay the increased premiums. Let the mechanic look for another job. Who know's how many other oil changes he's messed up?

I'd be fighting for a new car, or new engine, or at least, a very extended warranty on the powertrain.
you have no case.
you can not show any damage done.
You are over reacting.
If you were in my shop with this attitude you would never get an appointment with me again.
 

danski0224

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It sure seems that the "little" disclaimer about the oil gives VW a very large amount of wiggle room regarding any engine claims.

It seems that any PD owner will have to keep extremely detailed records and receipts showing oil type purchases for at least the life of the engine warranty.

Even then, all VW needs to say is that the owner must have topped off the crankcase with non 505.1 oil, that is what caused the damage.

Do the VW service records show the type of oil used in the service? That is pretty hard evidence to ignore if the receipt shows the wrong oil installed. Even so, I bet it will be virtually impossible to get any type of extended warranty out of a dealer due to their mistake. Lawyer fees will likely exceed the cost of a new vehicle, and they know that.

As much as I hate class action type lawsuits, where the lawyers get millions and the plaintiffs get coupons, a class action involving all PD owners that have had the wrong oil installed by VW dealers is likely the only way to get some type of satisfaction and notice from VWoA.
 

03_01_TDI

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Here is an excerpt from my '04 Passat TDI-PD's owner's manual:
"If you use engine oil that does not conform to Volkswagen Oil Standard 505 01, <font color="red">very serious and very expensive damage to your vehicle's engine </font> <font color="red"> WILL </font> occur. Engine damage caused by using the wrong engine oil will not be covered by your Limited New Vehicle Warranty."

It doesn't say "can occur" or "may occur". It clearly states that damage " <font color="red">will occur </font> ".
Even if you've only driven a short distance with the wrong oil, your engine has sustained "very serious and very expensive damage". Even if the car hadn't been driven at all, without a complete flush there will still be traces of the wrong oil in your engine. Considering VW specifically says not to top off with oil that doesn't meet the 505 01 specification, then, even a small percentage of the wrong oil in the total volume is enough to cause "very serious and very expensive damage".
you have no case.
you can not show any damage done.
You are over reacting.
If you were in my shop with this attitude you would never get an appointment with me again.
Sounds like you used to be a VW mech. Anyways "will" is a very clear legal term. As VWoA cleary wrote that legal disclaimer in order to void warranty. I doubt that the lawyer that wrote that disclaimer thought that it "shall be used againts them in a court of law" If you get a good judge then all you need to do is make a copy of the "VW" owners manual with that take out. Make the copy on a nice big poster board. Just take that to smalls claims court. If VWoA brings a fancy lawyer it will more than likly just piss the judge off. Thats is if he is a good judge.

None the less. I would fill a complaint with the BBB and write a letter to VWoA. "very serious and very expensive damage" has been done unkown to you.
 

Frank M

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Here is an excerpt from my '04 Passat TDI-PD's owner's manual:
"If you use engine oil that does not conform to Volkswagen Oil Standard 505 01, <font color="red">very serious and very expensive damage to your vehicle's engine </font> <font color="red"> WILL </font> occur. Engine damage caused by using the wrong engine oil will not be covered by your Limited New Vehicle Warranty."
"WILL OCCUR", sure with sustained use it will.
However in the short time the oil was in there it probably did not have time to cause any damage.

You would have to prove that it did, in my opinion.

No, I was not a VW tech.
 

danski0224

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There is no timeline specified in the owners manual writings, correct?

It does not say damage will occur in 5 minutes/5 miles (or something to that effect), just that very serious and very expensive damage will occur.

A reasonable person will assume that damage will not occur instantly, and the specific doom language used is to instill fear into those customers that constantly bend the rules.

If, according to VW, serious and expensive damage will occur, and the dealer, knowingly or not, installs the wrong oil, then that dealer should offer lifetime free oil changes and an engine warranty to the original owner because there is no way to know just when that very serious and expensive damage will occur.

If using the wrong oil, for any length of time, will not cause damage, then there should be no problem with the dealer offering a lifetime engine warranty. That warranty should cover normal wear and tear, because there is no way to definitively know if that wear was initiated by the wrong oil, however long it was in the crankcase.

How can it be determined if 10% of the life expectancy of the engine was removed by the wrong oil? How can it be determined if nothing happened? How will the wrong oil affect future trade in or resale values? Based on the discussions here, I would never consider buying a used VW with the PD engine unless an extremely detailed oil change history was documented with dated receipts.

The vehicle owner should not have to prove anything.

The correct oil is specified, and the dealer installed the wrong stuff, as stated on the receipt (part numbers and/or total cost will show what type of oil was installed). If VW service records are maintained in a database, then VWoA will know that the wrong oil was installed, giving the ability to deny all future claims. Anyone that has had the wrong oil installed by the dealer has a potentially serious problem. They need something in writing, good at all dealers, that states that the engine warranty has not been voided due to the dealers negligence.

Dealers can change ownership. It is imparitive that any solution be good nationwide, and not tied to a specific named dealer.
 

tjl

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How will the wrong oil affect future trade in or resale values? Based on the discussions here, I would never consider buying a used VW with the PD engine unless an extremely detailed oil change history was documented with dated receipts.
It could also have implications on reliability. E.g. as PD-TDI cars show up on the used car dealer lots with unknown service history and possibly missing owner's manuals, people buy them, then engine damage occurs (because the previous owner didn't use VW 505.01 oil, and the buyer who didn't get the owner's manual didn't see the warning about using VW 505.01 oil), then they get a reputation of being unreliable.
 

03_01_TDI

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Those last two comments are very very true.

I would hate to see the value of the PD cars value drop like old GM diesel cars in the 70-80's. Many Many people still hate diesel cars because of that engine.

If serious damage occurs with the wrong oil. What would happen and I'm sure its does and has, the tech just puts whatever oil in the car. Without regards to what is on the invoice. Or X dealership might not have the correct oil in stock so they just charge the customer for the correct oil then install the incorrect oil. After all a "ASE L1- Master Tech Ret" who owns a TDI seams to think its ok to use the wrong oil. I would bet that most people think oil is oil


I too would not buy a used PD nor would I advise anybody to purchase a used PD. I would even try to talk them out of buying a used PD.
resale value of the PD
over 100k miles will be alot less than the 1.9 TDI
 

Blue Camel

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you have no case.
You are right. I have no case. BobH has a case!

you can not show any damage done.
VW has spent $ millions on R&D, and engineering and have determined that 505 01 oil must be used in their PD engine. NO EXCEPTIONS!
They say "VERY SERIOUS AND EXPENSIVE DAMAGE WILL OCCUR" if the wrong oil is used. Even topping off with the wrong oil will void your warranty. So obviously, VW has determined that a very small percentage of the total volume is enough to cause "VERY SERIOUS AND EXPENSIVE DAMAGE".
I don't have to show damage done. BobH doesn't have to show damage done. Volkswagen has already determined that damage has occured.

You are over reacting.
If you were in my shop with this attitude you would never get an appointment with me again.
I'm overreacting? I think you're underreacting. The wording in my posts that seems most extreme is what I've taken from my owner's manual. VW also puts a decal in the engine compartment that states: "Failure to use engine oil in your engine that expressly conforms to Volkswagen Oil Standard 505 01 can cause engine failure on the highway that can cause a crash and serious personal injury."

I work hard to earn my money, as I'm sure most people do. BobH has spent over $20,000 on his new 2004 Jetta Wagon, and through the negligence of this dealer, its most vital component has sustained "very serious and very expensive damage".

BobH doesn't get the peace of mind that usually comes from buying a new car, knowing that you've got reliable transportation with a full warranty. He may now wonder if he's going to have to dump a lot of money into an engine rebuild down the road, because VW won't cover it. He may also wonder if he may have an engine failure while cruising down the highway with his family.

If you were in my shop with this attitude you would never get an appointment with me again.
There are too many people that take the attitude "Oh well. I made a mistake. Mistakes happen. It's your problem"

Taking your expensive vehicle into an authorized (and supposedly qualified) shop should not be a gamble, ever.
 

Frank M

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this forum is no place to argue about how much VW is liable for, if anything. Its easy to talk up up storm in a forum or to a client. (thats what lawyer do)

Let a court decide this.

I doubt that you will get an expert witness to testify that damage was done, unless he can show it..
case closed..
 

Frank M

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There is no timeline specified in the owners manual writings, correct?
It does not say damage will occur in 5 minutes/5 miles (or something to that effect), just that very serious and very expensive damage will occur.
A reasonable person will assume that damage will not occur instantly, and the specific doom language used is to instill fear into those customers that constantly bend the rules.
Exactly. It is being blown out of proportion in this forum.We have some Philadelphia Lawyers here..


My guess is that the fuel injection drive is some how affected by long term use of incorrect oil. This only would affect the injection system, possibly causing no fuel and a car stalling some where. This does not affect the lower end, pistons or any other part of the engine.
 

Blue Camel

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I agree that arguing here is pointless.
I wasn't trying to argue with anyone on this forum. I was trying to convey just how potentially serious the error was, based on warnings from Volkswagen.

Others here, seem to downplay it. I don't think BobH should be convinced that this was an honest mistake and should let it slide.

I myself doubt that running the engine for only a few miles would cause any or much damage. But I'm not saying there is damage. Volkswagen is!

The only ways to determine the extent of damage are to pull things apart and check, take your chances and wait and see, or trust the expertise of VW and Castrol's R&D and Engineering departments. I'm not a gambling man and would not take the "wait and see" approach. Maybe BobH is?

The dealer network, that we are supposed to trust our cars with, continue to prove their incompetency. VW makes it quite clear about not being liable if the wrong oil is used. It's the dealer that botched the job. They are liable. Not Volkswagen and definitely not BobH.

If dealers become responsible for engine overhauls and engine replacements, you can bet they will bring their competency levels up.

Bob, express your concerns with the dealership, file a case with VW Customer care so it's on record, and settle for no less than an extended powertrain warranty. Good Luck!
 

gardentender

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(piling on to a shaky heap o'posts here)

what damage may have occurred is directly proportional to the amount of time i.e. cycles of the mechanical parts in the injection system compared to the mean time between failure of those parts under normal conditions. it's a small amount of potential damage. that's why i deem it prudent to perform another oil change SOON.

nonetheless, VW, particularly that dealer, should be mature and decent enough to admit their role in potential premature wear/failure of the engine and thus document it.
however, as "businessmen" they'll hem and haw and hedge about it, worrying about a bottom line, flinging t-shirts left and right.

as to not making an appointment with that dealer or mechanic again. They have already demonstrated that they are not to be trusted with, what should be, a very simple procedure. Why keep going back? "Fool me once, fool me twice, etc." A technician that expresses a "you'll not have another appointment with my shop" attitude is probably uncomfortable with the idea of being caught in an egregious, foolish error and its cover-up. guilt and embarrassment make one say odd things.

My dealer screwed my Jetta up the day i picked it up and i never left it with them again. yes, i took it back for the 5k and 10K oil changes, but i hung around with the mech and watched him work. I provided the oil in both cases.
 
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