WVO TDI hits 100K miles

[oilhammer]

Please understand, I for one DO ask questions, and I DO work on many of these cars. I have no problem with it, on someone else's car, I just have a problem with the reaction the owners often times have when something needs service.

I know I am stereotyping, but remember these stereotypes exist for a reason. When someone knows what they are doing, that is one thing. But it is amazing just how many people jump on the WVO train like it is some fad without any research AT ALL. Last year it was a HUGE boom, due to fuel costs being so-called "high". And since all that is readily available as far as diesels are concerned that is not too expensive nor too old are VW TDIs. So, being a guy such as myself who specializes in such vehicles, you can well imagine how many people were coming in here one after the other with a starry-eyed, pie-in-the-sky fantasy about "FREE FUEL FOREVER!!!!" and not one idea of what all it involves. Keeping a Volkswagen alive and healthy and STOCK is one thing, keep a diesel Volkswagen (in this country) alive and healthy and STOCK is even harder...but when you add some "kit" that consists of a rat's nest of hoses, valves, wires, coolers, filters, heaters, etc. you can clearly see it adds insult to injury. This is no different than adding some blingy boomy sound system, or some ignorant add-on alarm, or remote start, or any one of a hundred other silly things people comb JC Whitney for. But this is something that is primarily seen on TDIs for the reasons mentioned above...so it gets a lot of publicity here.

I mean, I have been fighting a phantom CTS DTC in a 2001 Golf with an Elsbett system installed for a year now. When I bypass the hacked-up wiring that is riddled with el-cheapo Harbor Freight butt-connectors, it all works fine...but the added on stuff causes all sorts of goofy problems. And the owner of the car has NO IDEA how to work on this car AT ALL. So you can understand the frustration I have with people like this, and why many people who work on these simply REFUSE to even touch them. This is the typical WVO car I see. If I saw them coming in here, with no problems ever, and everything was just honky-dory, I would certainly have a different attitude...but I don't! Every single time a WVO car comes in this shop, it ALWAYS has some problem directly or indirectly related to the WVO aspect. Even something as simple as a mucked up shifter cable, that was cooked against the exhaust, because they had to make room to run the coolant pipes to the trunk-mounted tank.

So while these people certainly ARE 'saving' money by not purchasing fuel, it is so often offset by stupid repairs. Now that is all fine, so long as they do not complain. But man, every time it seems like when the car needs a $100 repair you'd think you were asking for their first-born! I had a guy recently drive his 2002 Jetta to 126k miles on the original belt, which broke, and his response when I asked him why he did not do the belt at 100k when it was due was "well, I didn't have the money" ! ! ! ! ! Well, you think he had the $2600 for the valve job it needed???? Yet he 'saved' thousands of dollars a year running 'free' fuel from his dad's restaurant.... You see my frustration here? Then when I tell him there will be some extra labor costs to deal with all the extra stuff under the hood, he about cried! This is a guy who spent $1500 on this kit, then another $600 to have it 'professionally' installed (well I can tell you, unless by 'professional' he means some 5th graders with a D average, then yeah he was right).

Have another customer...EVERY WINTER that car gets towed in here multiple times, with the entire fuel system solid. Car has to sit, in the shop, taking up space, for 2 days to get thawed out properly, started, purged, etc. so he can drive it again. He lives nearly 60 miles away, in the boonies. Multiple tow bills... where is the savings in that? Clearly he does not know what he is doing.

And all these people, I have politely given them every shred of info I know, every website I know, every resource I can think of, even shown them how to change filters if needed...so it is not like I am WVO unfriendly. I just think everyone should KNOW in and out about what they are doing. Honestly, many people who thought about it then researched it decided NOT to do it, or set up a nice BD still at home and put that in an unmodified car. A few local people have even started working on a small co-op here for BD production, and I offered to help.

 

[Thermo1223]

EXcellent!

 

[vwcampin]

Thank you for the insight Oilhammer. To me that is a productive post. It does show what a lot of the gurus deal with. People like that would drive me crazy as well. I for one do not think WVO is for you if you don't understand the basics of how your car works. I would go so far as to say if you can't install the kit yourself, WVO will most likely be an uphill battle at best.

To others on here, snide one or two sentence response of "OMG, WVO will blow your engine up" are not helpful warnings. You might mean it as a warning, but it comes off as trolling most of the time. I don't think there are any WVO users on TDIClub who try to blindly lead anyone else into stepping into the WVO game, so feel free to step in if you think someone is giving bad advice.

 

[Mr_Deezy]

Nobody ever gets it.

It is not BS comments they are warnings, running VO is not for the timid. It requires meticulous attention to detail. I applaud all those that run it and have no issues now.

It goes without saying just because you run it for 100k doesn't mean it won't fail horribly one day. It can, has, & will. It is just like anything else with a MTBF.

If those 3 reasons which have no facts to back were all that was needed WVO would have been a hit long ago.

What I'm sure is really annoying is the idiots they get on TV straining it through a colander and dumping it right in. I will say though episodes on various shows about BioD seem to have finally found credible people who know how to make it.

Not to mention the idiot installers of VO systems.

If you want to get mad at someone get mad at them, they hurt VO more than anything else. As the customer ends up at a mechanic cursing VO to death because it ruined their car. That is unless the customer was a clout to begin with, then it was never meant to be.

What we get mad about is garbage that gets posted like the following.


validius vbmenu_register("postmenu_2572934", true);
Lacking in ZDDP

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan

Though i still dont understand why he (and the rest of you VO fools... yea you heard me) dont just make BD out of it.



Thermo1223 vbmenu_register("postmenu_2573028", true);
Veteran Member

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Allentown, PA

It was more in reference to you than the actions of others.

WVO is by no means a reliable way to fuel your car unless you knowingly accept it will fail horribly at some point.

The people that jumped on it and cry when it breaks are exactly the ones who deserve whats coming to them.

That belongs at the end of every WVO thread.



And this came from only THIS thread, there are thousands just like it. Here WVO'ers are being called "fools" and you are saming that WVO IS NOT a reliable means of fuel a diesel, an absolutle statement, and yet you have never done it, so your statement means nothing.

Just like there are people who don't perform (or have it performed) regular maintenance on thier vehicles, just like there are people who don't prepare bio-diesel correctly, there are people who don't take the correct precautions with WVO. Its just a fact of life. You guys don't spend a fraction of the time whining about the guy with the broken belt after 126K as you do with the guy with the soild WVO in his fuel line. Both are dumb mistakes.

You can post all bad things that you "think" are bad about WVO, its not going to stop someone if that is what they want to do. If you feel you HAVE to try to pursuade someone away from WVO maybe you should try to convince them with facts or direct experience first before just blathering about what you THINK and don't KNOW.

 

[Mr_Deezy]

Thank you for the insight Oilhammer. To me that is a productive post. It does show what a lot of the gurus deal with. People like that would drive me crazy as well. I for one do not think WVO is for you if you don't understand the basics of how your car works. I would go so far as to say if you can't install the kit yourself, WVO will most likely be an uphill battle at best.

To others on here, snide one or two sentence response of "OMG, WVO will blow your engine up" are not helpful warnings. You might mean it as a warning, but it comes off as trolling most of the time. I don't think there are any WVO users on TDIClub who try to blindly lead anyone else into stepping into the WVO game, so feel free to step in if you think someone is giving bad advice.

I agree with vwcampin on this and like he said I think this was some great insight from Oilhammer. But what can you do?

There are going to be people who will run a timing belt until it breaks every time, all you can do is tell them to have it changed before it breaks. For the guy who's lines freeze up every winter, all you can do is tell him what he is doing wrong to prevent it from happening again. But, just like running the guy with the broken belt, this is not what the majority of car owners do and just like the guy with the frozen lines, this is not what most WVO'ers do.

 

[oilhammer]

I guess it is really no different than people who buy a TDI (or any VAG diesel, for that matter) and think it will be incredibly cheap to operate, even if the thought of an alternative fuel source never crossed their mind.

But I still do not feel that, just because I personally have not run WVO in my own vehicle, that it somehow means I am ignorant to what it involves, be it good (free fuel) or bad (siezed engine).

Lots of people here, in this forum, that are regulars know what they are doing. They do not scare me so, it is the people that do NOT know what they are doing that scare me. And I agree, it is probably best that you understand how to install bits and service the car at least at some level before you embark on a lifestyle such as WVO use in your car. But touting that your car just passed 100k miles, after running WVO for the last 50k, is not really 'proof' that all is well, and people learning about this should understand that.

 

[Mr_Deezy]

I guess it is really no different than people who buy a TDI (or any VAG diesel, for that matter) and think it will be incredibly cheap to operate, even if the thought of an alternative fuel source never crossed their mind.

But I still do not feel that, just because I personally have not run WVO in my own vehicle, that it somehow means I am ignorant to what it involves, be it good (free fuel) or bad (siezed engine).

Lots of people here, in this forum, that are regulars know what they are doing. They do not scare me so, it is the people that do NOT know what they are doing that scare me. And I agree, it is probably best that you understand how to install bits and service the car at least at some level before you embark on a lifestyle such as WVO use in your car. But touting that your car just passed 100k miles, after running WVO for the last 50k, is not really 'proof' that all is well, and people learning about this should understand that.

Well said.

However running WVO for the last 50k means that the owner is probably doing something right and if he continues it in this manner his chances are good that he can double that mileage on WVO. This is not an absolute, but going 50k without any major problems is pretty good.

 

[nicklockard]

Well there's some excellent discussion here for a change. VWCampin, you're especially quotable.

But if I may add one little thing regarding the calling out of fear mongers...

I agree. Fear mongering doesn't really help anyone. Single sentence, or worse, partial sentences like "OMG, WVO killZ engineZ!!!!" do a disservice to all.

BUT so do the OMG!! BIODIESEL IS SO DANGEROUZZZ!!!!|||!@@!! postings.

Really. Look under your kitchen cabinet some time. I can garun-fricken-tee you that the sum total of chemicals there poses more danger to you and your family than methanol and lye when used correctly. So called "green" cleaning products aren't nearly as "green" as you think, marketing hype aside. {but that's another rant.}

It's all about risk management, in both WVO and in making biodiesel. Hand waving away risks to the engine while hyping risks of chemicals is JUST AS BAD as the fear mongering you hate so much.

So Mr. Deezy, thanks for calling out that bad behavior. Now please encourage yourself and your brethren to follow your own advice.

 

[philngrayce]

Cheaper, that depends on your cost to store/process/run it.

Easier, see above and highly opinionated.

Safer, again highly opinionated.

So no it's not.

Cheaper, no question about it. Pretty silly to argue otherwise.

I find it much easier, but an argument could be made that you save the trouble of converting your vehicles (and/or boilers).

Safer, maybe opiniated but I am aware of no deaths from WVO proccessing. It's a pretty good opinion.

 

[BioDiesel]

"I would go so far as to say if you can't install the kit yourself, WVO will most likely be an uphill battle at best."

I had two customers for whom I installed single tank Elsbett IDI M-B's.
One was a lady caterer. The other admitted no automotive knowledge.
The lady ran virgin SVO till her M-B was in an accident.
The other got a bad repair job by a local mechanic that ruined the engine.
[Faulty repair of the glow plug relay that led to always on.]
Neither could find a competent mechanic for old M-B's.

WVO was not a factor in either failure.

 

[BioDiesel]

"It's all about risk management, in both WVO "

Wheres the risk in WVO?
Stop the BS please.

Deaths from biodiesel: 5
Deaths from SVO: 0

 

[oilhammer]

Actually, I got a bunch of used parts off of a Jetta once that burnt the front half of the car to a crisp due to a poorly routed fuel/WVO line that rubbed through the radiator fan. Nobody died, but it certainly could have been much worse, as the car was burning when he parked it in his garage . A tow hook, and a quick thinking neighbor with a pickup were able to yank it out into the driveway where it burned for a while until the FD showed up.

I got the tail lights, the rear wheels, and the trunk liner. Not much else was left.

 

[40X40]

"It's all about risk management, in both WVO "

Wheres the risk in WVO?
Stop the BS please.

Deaths from biodiesel: 5
Deaths from SVO: 0

Quote your sources or you are just spreading your own brand of BS.

Bill

 

[philngrayce]

Five is probably a good number, maybe even low. I know of three: One in Staten Island, NY, one out in San Diego and a third maybe in Idaho. There must have been at least two more, especially ifyou look worldwide.

There have been lots of other biodiesel fires, some quite bad, that didn't kill anybody.

I do know of one WVO fire (overheated filter heating element) and Oilhammer has seen a car fire (though I wonder how they determined that was the cause, and even if it was I might blame that more on sloppy mechanical work). I'm sure there are a few others, but I have never heard of a fatality.

 

[validius]

"It's all about risk management, in both WVO "

Wheres the risk in WVO?
Stop the BS please.

Deaths from biodiesel: 5
Deaths from SVO: 0

Bullsh*t. As proof i give you this: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=186108

You CANNOT say that the only reason any VO motor has failed is because they were doing it wrong. It doesn't work like that. If you want to believe it then go ahead but noone else does.

 

[validius]

"It's all about risk management, in both WVO "

Wheres the risk in WVO?
Stop the BS please.

Deaths from biodiesel: 5
Deaths from SVO: 0

I'm sorry, this is worth another post its so stupid. Did you REALLY just say that there are NO risks with WVO? Really?

There are risks doing ANYTHING outside of manufacture spec. There are even risks running within manufacture spec (PD owners, im looking at your cams). Some more then others. There are serious risks to running B100 but you dont see anyone here saying its a bad idea for a VE car if the quality control is good and the owner understands the risks.

 

[nicklockard]

"It's all about risk management, in both WVO "

Wheres the risk in WVO?
Stop the BS please.

Deaths from biodiesel: 5
Deaths from SVO: 0

You have to consider the entire risk envelope. Financial risk on the order of what these cars cost can easily wipe some people's savings and entire liquid assets out to zero.

Focusing on one type of risk to the exclusion of the other is highly irresponsible. People lose careers over this kind of stuff, as they should. It's called malfeasance/incompetence.

Edit: please do yourself a favor and take a course in risk management

 

[philngrayce]

Bullsh*t. As proof i give you this: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=186108

You CANNOT say that the only reason any VO motor has failed is because they were doing it wrong. It doesn't work like that. If you want to believe it then go ahead but noone else does.

It may be that some folks have had their WVO experiments fail while doing nothing wrong. Unfortunately, the case you reference is not one of those. He readily admits that he made two major mistakes.

 

[philngrayce]

I'm sorry, this is worth another post its so stupid. Did you REALLY just say that there are NO risks with WVO? Really?

There are risks doing ANYTHING outside of manufacture spec. There are even risks running within manufacture spec (PD owners, im looking at your cams). Some more then others. There are serious risks to running B100 but you dont see anyone here saying its a bad idea for a VE car if the quality control is good and the owner understands the risks.

He did not say there are no risks with WVO. Quite the contrary, he said it is a matter of risk management. Were there no risks, there would be no risk management.

He did say there are no deaths caused by WVO.

Please read a post more carefully before calling the poster stupid. Better yet, don't call anyone stupid.

 

[jasonTDI]

You forgot about the female armpit hair.

ewwwwwwwwwwww! that too!

 

[jasonTDI]

Do you refuse to work on any part of a WVO car, or only if it's related to the WVO system? If I come in and need work done on my brakes, alternator or starter, would you turn me away because I have a WVO car?

I can usually take care of WVO issues, myself, but wouldn't think about replacing my own timing belt.

steve

Depends on what it is. I'll do suspension, brakes etc as it is not any different. TB's depends on the kit in the car. Some of the 300 hose home made kits can keep walking. If there is so much stuff in the way I can't see the marks or get at anything forget it. Just not worth the hassle. Although the attitude of the owner goes a long way to getting work done on one.

 

[jasonTDI]

From what I have seen Jason post before, he has indicated he will not work on WVO cars period. Definitely his prerogative, but it seems the consensus is that all WVO users are "dirty, stoner hippies"

Not all, but here in Madison it's generally the case. Obviously you've never been here. 50K people that think they are in their own country and have diplomatic immunity for their actions. (U.W. Madison students and faculty)

 

[jasonTDI]

Yes it is... This can go back and forth all day...

Theres a lot thats involved in being successful with VO. Some people take the time to research and others don't. Its not a replacement to diesel fuel, its a supplement and should be treated as such.

Great statement. Very true.

 

[Thermo1223]

Cheaper, no question about it. Pretty silly to argue otherwise.

I find it much easier, but an argument could be made that you save the trouble of converting your vehicles (and/or boilers).

Safer, maybe opinionated but I am aware of no deaths from WVO processing. It's a pretty good opinion.

No it's not, you tout that free fuel all you want but if your lack of caring once results in a dead IP. Your savings just vanished. Now that assumes bad fuel was the cause but with WVO it is highly likely it was since the pump was being used outside of the safe zone(tolerances).

That is why I said safer & easier are highly opinionated because they are.

What is safe for one person could down right dangerous for the next. The same goes for easier, personally I leave the fuel to the people who do it best. Those same will fix my car should their fuel do it a disservice.

I again personally do not want coolant anywhere close to my fuel outside of the engine.

In response to a previous post you do not need experience running VO in any form to understand how it works. Running it, working with it, will give knowledge on the issues that crop up and the best way to trouble shoot them. I don't need to use VO to make an informed decision not to or warn others of the possible failures.

 

[UFO]

Cheaper, no question about it. Pretty silly to argue otherwise.

WVO fuel is cheaper only under certain circumstances, like if you don't consider the costs of conversion, especially for more than one vehicle, and cheaper only if you have long commutes and/or warm climates. Otherwise making biodiesel has obvious cost advantages. So it's not silly to argue otherwise.

 

[philngrayce]

No it's not, you tout that free fuel all you want but if your lack of caring once results in a dead IP. Your savings just vanished. Now that assumes bad fuel was the cause but with WVO it is highly likely it was since the pump was being used outside of the safe zone(tolerances).

That is why I said safer & easier are highly opinionated because they are.

What is safe for one person could down right dangerous for the next. The same goes for easier, personally I leave the fuel to the people who do it best. Those same will fix my car should their fuel do it a disservice.

I again personally do not want coolant anywhere close to my fuel outside of the engine.

"Cheaper, safer and easier" was comparing running WVO to making biodiesel. Of course, there are many other variables. But comparing the cost of WVO to the cost of making it into biodiesel is simple - WVO is cheaper.
True some people operate more safely than others, but I have a hard time seeing where making biodiesel is safer than filtering WVO.
Naturally, it is easier to let someone else make your fuel. But that is not what this discussion was about.

 

[philngrayce]

WVO fuel is cheaper only under certain circumstances, like if you don't consider the costs of conversion, especially for more than one vehicle, and cheaper only if you have long commutes and/or warm climates. Otherwise making biodiesel has obvious cost advantages. So it's not silly to argue otherwise.

He said he didn't understand why WVO folks don't make biodiesel out of WVO. I explained the reason: for us, it is cheaper. Certainly not true for the person who only drives five miles at a time and never switches to WVO, but for those of us running WVO it is cheaper. Incidently, I run three vehicles on WVO, plus heating a building, and I still find it cheaper.

 

[UFO]

He said he didn't understand why WVO folks don't make biodiesel out of WVO. I explained the reason: for us, it is cheaper. Certainly not true for the person who only drives five miles at a time and never switches to WVO, but for those of us running WVO it is cheaper. Incidently, I run three vehicles on WVO, plus heating a building, and I still find it cheaper.

How do you "find it cheaper" if you have converted 3 vehicles? Oh, by not considering the conversion costs, right.

1 biodiesel processor = $1500.
3 conversions = 3x$2000 = $6000.

At 1500 gallons per year, savings for biodiesel = $1.50 per gallon or $2250, savings for WVO not including start fuel = $3375 or a difference of $1125 savings per year.

Time to run WVO to break even over biodiesel = 4 years at 1500 gallons of fuel per year. My fuel usage is much lower, at 800 gallons per year, so it would take me nearly 8 years to BREAK EVEN. And that's with diesel costing $2.25 a gallon.

Pretty silly.

 

[Thermo1223]

"Cheaper, safer and easier" was comparing running WVO to making biodiesel. Of course, there are many other variables. But comparing the cost of WVO to the cost of making it into biodiesel is simple - WVO is cheaper.
True some people operate more safely than others, but I have a hard time seeing where making biodiesel is safer than filtering WVO.
Naturally, it is easier to let someone else make your fuel. But that is not what this discussion was about.

I was under the wrong impression then. I thought we were comparing directly to ULSD.

Yes it is cheaper but it comes at it's own price. I rather look at it as a whole.

Spending $2000 to save $2000 just seems foolish in my book. Well as far as safety is concerned there is a higher probability that WVO could leave you stranded vs Bio, although the statistics on both side have insufficient data I'd imagine to support that. I consider being stranded in bumfudge packer to be a safety concern.

 

[philngrayce]

How do you "find it cheaper" if you have converted 3 vehicles? Oh, by not considering the conversion costs, right.

1 biodiesel processor = $1500.
3 conversions = 3x$2000 = $6000.

At 1500 gallons per year, savings for biodiesel = $1.50 per gallon or $2250, savings for WVO not including start fuel = $3375 or a difference of $1125 savings per year.

Time to run WVO to break even over biodiesel = 4 years at 1500 gallons of fuel per year. My fuel usage is much lower, at 800 gallons per year, so it would take me nearly 8 years to BREAK EVEN. And that's with diesel costing $2.25 a gallon.

Pretty silly.

My first conversion cost $800, maybe $100 more for miscelaneous parts. My second was about $1,000. The third was under $700. So a total of $2,600 for conversions. Being generous, $400 for the filtering and pumping setup. Total $3,000. I've saved that much in one year.

The boiler conversion was much more expensive, almost $4,000. But that is long paid for too.

Any questions?