WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story

[LurkerMike]

We pulled the head and look what happened to my week old $1000 turbo:
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Look at the pitting on the inlet to the compressor. Foreign object damage probably caused the pitting:

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I found this in the "Another VNT-20 Installed" Thread...
(Thanks Street Toys, I wouldn't have seen it without your advice).

Well, looks like I'll be ordering in the next day or two...
I took my head off yesterday to fix a leaky gasket and go back to a thinner one,
and found my vnt17 looking like this.....

Cant argue with the timing. I dont know what got in there, but its toasted.
It was boosting normally too.....

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[DuluthRooster]

Wow, Mike, that looks familiar. Amazing that it happened to two go us at once.

 

[LurkerMike]

Anyone ever use a screen filter?

http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/control/discs

http://www.sidcofilter.com/store.asp?pid=17624&catid=19607

http://www.anrodscreen.com/

Surely there is a stainless wire disk, cone or funnel filter somewhere
that would work nicely?

 

[slojoe]

OK, let's get the Webster's on "specious":

“Apparently good or right though lacking real merit; superficially pleasing or plausible.”

As I stated, SloeJoe's comment is specious as there is no data or even anecdotal evidence backing it up. It is therefore a comment which is also "disparaging":

“To bring reproach or discredit upon; lower the estimation of.”

Now that we have our vocab lesson of the day, let’s move on.

Do I really need to explain to you that I was referring to people, as was SloeJoe's original statement which I quoted? Hopefully not.

You seem to have taken a random “specious” comment made by SloJoe and exacerbated it to an odd extent. Why the vitriol?

And hey, try and lowball a grease kit TDI, see how far that gets you. I wish you luck.

Actually it was a rhetorical question. Your hypothetical responses to my question are themselves specious. Your patronizing dictionary definitions and rolling eyes reveal you as arrogant. Attempting to hide your own antagonism by calling someone else vitriolic is pure hypocrisy.

I resent being quoted out of context by someone who is simply grinding an axe of agenda. For hard facts on the issue at hand, I need look no further than at internal engine parts from greaser engines, blown or not. All greaser internals that I have seen either in person or online reveal critical parts exhibiting significant levels of trash that have no place in a TDI engine. Abundant posts on this topic from highly experienced wrenches here abound, not the least of which opens this thread.

Until you show us otherwise, i.e. clean engine internals from a greaser with significant mileage on VO, anything that you have to say to the contrary represents the pinnacle of speciousness. Not to put too fine a point on it, put up or shut up. Additionally, there exists a helpful matter of etiquette on Internet forums. Have the discipline, or the courtesy, to limit yourself to two posts per thread when you are strictly venting opinion, responding to others' vitriol, or dispensing it yourself.

 

[SnowCub]

A very interesting thread. I too will have to post my experiences if my engine explodes. I would like to reach 100k miles on WVO before that happens. I'm currently at 49k miles on grease. If it doesn't explode, I'll post too. And folks in New England will see me at GTG's. But just not this weekend because I have to go to NYC.

hmm, do I have a point here? ... guess not. Just lurking, watching

 

[KBsters]

Thanks a bunch for the good info. I have been strongly considering getting into the wvo conversion and buying the kit and all the exspensive things that make it work. But now im having some doubts. I just wonder if there was anything you might could have done to help prevent this or if it is something that will eventually happen to anyone running off wvo. At any rate thanks for the info and sorry to hear about your ordeal. Better luck from here on out

 

[William J Toensing]

Thank you for posting this article. Did you run a good quality synthetic oil like Amsoil or a non-synthetic petrolium oil? To those of you who are running WVO with kits, how many miles have you driven. I would think if someone could drive 150,000 to 200,000 miles on WVO with out any problems, they are doing something right. If you have driven 20,000 without any problem, that is no proof. Has anyone had any problems from driving 100,000 to 200,000 miles on B-100 that can be traced to the use of biodiesel? If so, I would like to know.
Also, is there a way of adjusting my computer so I don't have to scroll from left to right to read these postings? On some postings I have to do this & others, I don't.

 

[William J Toensing]

After posting my last message, my computer automatically adjusted the prior postings so I didn't have to scroll left to right. Is there a way to adjust my computer to do this before I post on that topic or thread?

 

[DuluthRooster]

Thank you for posting this article. Did you run a good quality synthetic oil like Amsoil or a non-synthetic petrolium oil? To those of you who are running WVO with kits, how many miles have you driven?

I was using Mobil Delvac 1 synthetic until Wally World started carrying it as Mobil Diesel Truck Synthetic. In hindsight I should have changed my oil more frequently and had oil analysis.

My car had 50,000 of its 85,000 miles on WVO.

 

[Chasee]

Actually it was a rhetorical question. Your hypothetical responses to my question are themselves specious. Your patronizing dictionary definitions and rolling eyes reveal you as arrogant. Attempting to hide your own antagonism by calling someone else vitriolic is pure hypocrisy.

I resent being quoted out of context by someone who is simply grinding an axe of agenda. For hard facts on the issue at hand, I need look no further than at internal engine parts from greaser engines, blown or not. All greaser internals that I have seen either in person or online reveal critical parts exhibiting significant levels of trash that have no place in a TDI engine. Abundant posts on this topic from highly experienced wrenches here abound, not the least of which opens this thread.

Until you show us otherwise, i.e. clean engine internals from a greaser with significant mileage on VO, anything that you have to say to the contrary represents the pinnacle of speciousness. Not to put too fine a point on it, put up or shut up. Additionally, there exists a helpful matter of etiquette on Internet forums. Have the discipline, or the courtesy, to limit yourself to two posts per thread when you are strictly venting opinion, responding to others' vitriol, or dispensing it yourself.

Hold on there bubbie, you got things a bit mixed up.

First and foremost, I did not quote you out of context. In fact, I didn't quote you in the post you referenced at all!

This all stems back a ways to where you actually did say, and I quote:

I wonder how many WVO tdi owners that "disappear" simply sell the cars that they have turned into ticking time bombs... i wonder how many remove all traces of a grease conversion and say nothing to the new buyers.

Please reference post #81 where I called this statement specious.

After that, TornadoRed ran with your comment and I chose to engage him as I take great offense to a specious comment which disparages both myself and all the "WVO tdi owners" that I know. His comments were indeed vitriolic at times. Simple as that.

Now if you scan my posts here, you'll see that I would love to submit my car to a full wear analysis. I certainly will not do it for free, but I'm just as curious as anyone. How is that specious? I have not made any comments regarding the viability of WVO that are not in direct reference to my own vehicle. I do not pretend to speak for anyone else, or in general, and I tend to make that very clear at every opportunity. How is that specious? So I've made it clear that I will "put up", as you say, as soon as someone wants to foot the bill. That's fair, right?

And man, if you have to sink to the level of insulting me for using my intelligence and vocabulary to win a debate (with someone other than you, no less), you need to seriously check yourself.

I'm happy to debate you on this topic to the best of my ability. But I will not engage you in a simplistic flame war filled with personal insults.

 

[burpod]

chasee, you said specious too many times, therefore i cannot comprehend your post? get over the specious thang!

 

[SnowCub]

You know I'm tempted to add some of my experiences but this thread looks mostly like a flame war at this point. Do we need more fuel for the fire?

 

[BioDiesel]

"Is there anything you can do to prevent this from happening?"

Yes. Lost in all the off-topic posts and flames a few pages back from Dana:

"Your post here was almost immediately linked to in several of the VO conversion forums. I saw it HERE. It generated quite a bit of discussion on what had probably occcurred and how to prevent it from occurring in the future. "

You did see the 5 Items DR posted as contributing to the failure right?
Ranked in severity, #5 is first, followed by #1.
We're not sure if running canola is required in TDI's yet.
Some research says yes, but there are 100's running hydrogenated soy w/o the coking experienced by DR.

 

[Chasee]

chasee, you said specious too many times, therefore i cannot comprehend your post? get over the specious thang!

Point taken.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

You know I'm tempted to add some of my experiences but this thread looks mostly like a flame war at this point. Do we need more fuel for the fire?

I actually found the other threads this sparked quite interesting. I am a bit puzzled by some poster's anti-mod bias. I guess it has to do with the consequences of over-fueling with WVO, but a good set of mods shouldn't cause such problems.

 

[nicklockard]

I actually found the other threads this sparked quite interesting. I am a bit puzzled by some poster's anti-mod bias. I guess it has to do with the consequences of over-fueling with WVO, but a good set of mods shouldn't cause such problems.

I agree.

If anything, having larger nozzles should help, as should a (customized) chip tune. Both help get the fuel in the cylinder earlier so it can start to combust and hopefully combust fully in the limited time allowed. Also, most custom tunes turn up turbo boost--which should also help fully combust vegetable oil.

Methinks those (on the WVO discussion boards linked above) criticizing mods are just plain unfamiliar with how they work and what they do and are categorically condemning them??.. But, I'll admit I have no specific expertise in that regard. Maybe they know something we don't? I dunno. I'd like to know what that school of thought says about tuning mods and VO.

 

[BioDiesel]

"If anything, having larger nozzles should help, as should a (customized) chip tune. Both help get the fuel in the cylinder earlier so it can start to combust and hopefully combust fully in the limited time allowed. Also, most custom tunes turn up turbo boost--which should also help fully combust vegetable oil."

Universal reports of increased smoking with mod's whether fueled with diesel or SVO, indicate none of your theorized benefits are occuring. The changes you indicate are done ( timing , boost ) to offset the deletrious effects of increasing the amount of fuel injected. They merely compensate.

Mod'ed SVO reports include:
1. Increased smoking.
2. Hard starting.
3. Crankcase levels INCREASING ( a very clear indication of unburned fuel ).

 

[Vipervnm]

"If anything, having larger nozzles should help, as should a (customized) chip tune. Both help get the fuel in the cylinder earlier so it can start to combust and hopefully combust fully in the limited time allowed. Also, most custom tunes turn up turbo boost--which should also help fully combust vegetable oil."

Universal reports of increased smoking with mod's whether fueled with diesel or SVO, indicate none of your theorized benefits are occuring. The changes you indicate are done ( timing , boost ) to offset the deletrious effects of increasing the amount of fuel injected. They merely compensate.

Mod'ed SVO reports include:
1. Increased smoking.
2. Hard starting.
3. Crankcase levels INCREASING ( a very clear indication of unburned fuel ).

Also something to note is that many tunes include turning off or greatly reducing the EGR cycle. This would also lead to increased smoking would it not? So would it benefit to do a tune that adjusted the values that benefit the fuel vs performance?

 

[Slave2school]

Turning off the EGR reduces smoking (at least it did on my car), as you are not sucking back more soot and exhaust in place of fresh clean uncombusted air.

 

[nicklockard]

Tuning does not increase smoke if it's done right.

Also, you can tune specifically for VO running by pushing timing and boost up but leaving IQ/torque maps alone, IIUC.

OTOH, if you just grab a chip off the shelf and expect it to work with VO just as it would with D2, I can definitely see all of those problems you mentioned.

 

[BioDiesel]

"tunes include turning off or greatly reducing the EGR cycle. "

Once you convert to SVO or biodiesel, soot, and hence EGR, is no longer an issue. Soot isn't produced. The EGR system can be left stock. Mine is and my intake is clean after 156K miles.

Re: Chip optimizing for SVO
Nick,
If you know someone who is using a 'chip' and tuning it for SVO, have you told them about this thread?
[ Anyone messing with any of these parameters w/o a way to confirm correct combustion is asking for trouble. ]

I agree. If you advanced timing , increased boost, w/o adding more fuel, that would be ideal for SVO.
I assume DR used a 'default profile' that did all three.
My Elsbett has a clever way of advancing the timing, but I can't reveal proprietary info.

 

[Vipervnm]

Cool, thanks guys!

 

[SnowCub]

Re: Chip optimizing for SVO
If you know someone who is using a 'chip' and tuning it for SVO, have you told them about this thread?
[ Anyone messing with any of these parameters w/o a way to confirm correct combustion is asking for trouble. ]
I agree. If you advanced timing , increased boost, w/o adding more fuel, that would be ideal for SVO.

When I had my car chipped, Jeff at RocketChip suggested stage 2 Euro tune. He said it has worked for many of his customers with WVO kits and would allow the engine to handle the higher oil temperatures of the heated veggie oil. The stock computer usually retards the timing when sensing the warm veggie oil.

Jeff has a lot of experience with TDI's so I would assume he has monitored the effects of tuning the WVO kits as well.

 

[BioDiesel]

Thanks for the info SnowClub.
I jsut re-read Darren UK's updat eon the original 'chipped' SVO failure.
He suspects it was also due to improper timing. But a gross error, done during a timing belt change. [Maybe the ip was off by a tooth?]
FWIR, the ECM can only achieve a very fine adjustment in timing.
I don't think the timing range possible in the ECM will effect changes in combustion sufficient to cause the type of failure Darren describes.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I think the statements I read on the risks of tuning in other threads indicated posters' ignorance regarding TDI tuning. Making more power has three parameters: fuel, boost, and timing. All can be changed dramatically through re-flashing the ECU. So-called 'chipping' (really a re-flash except on some of the older TDIs) should be tailored to a car's hardware (turbo, nozzles, exhaust, intercooling, and even fuel source). TDI performance in the US are sub-optimized to meet our emissions regulations: Fueling is heavier (especially in '04 and later cars) and timing is retarded. Correcting these flaws through tuning can significantly improve performance and efficiency.

My '02 wagon has what I would call a 'moderate' tune and I ran oil analyses last summer that showed very low soot buildup in the oil after 10 and 20K. So mods, done right, do not equal fuel migration.

Performance mods are not just for people who want to spin tires and make smoke. They really improve how these cars perform. The posters on the WVO forums don't seem to see it that way.

 

[nicklockard]

Biodiesel, the ECU actually can control dynamic timing to a fairly wide span (I'll have to hook up vag-com or defer to others with the details on how wide since I can't remember off the top of my head.)

But, I can say that after I had my car fine-tuned this weekend, timing was advanced in the mid-range right around 1900 rpm's. Watching my scanguage, I can see the dynamic timing vary from 0 15 degrees of advance from static timing, which makes a huge difference in driveability and torque/smoothness without emitting ANY visible smoke. (I assume the degrees are degrees of crankshaft rotation relative to the correlated static timing as set on the IP pulley.)

I'm with IBW...I suspect that such blanket condemnation of tuning chips/nozzles is out of mostly ignorance. Yes, if you increase fueling without regard for the fuel properties and without adding more boost and advance, I can definitely see an "off the shelf" or used chip causing problems with running VO, but all of the respected tuners for Tdi's know how to fine-tune files, provided the owners let them know they plan on running VO.

 

[BioDiesel]

Nick posted:
"...but all of the respected tuners for Tdi's know how to fine-tune files, provided the owners let them know they plan on running VO."

Do they provide an engine warranty?

 

[Drivbiwire]

If you run VO, WVO or SVO any tuner would have to be smoking crack to warranty one of those systems!

As they say [you] PLAY YOU PAY...
DB

 

[SnowCub]

Nick posted:
"...but all of the respected tuners for Tdi's know how to fine-tune files, provided the owners let them know they plan on running VO."

Do they provide an engine warranty?

I've never heard of any tuner offering an engine warranty. Where do you shop? Even TRD only warrantys the parts for 12k miles and says nothing about engine damage.

 

[nicklockard]

Nick posted:
"...but all of the respected tuners for Tdi's know how to fine-tune files, provided the owners let them know they plan on running VO."

Do they provide an engine warranty?

No, in fact they say: "you are your own warranty."

As is anyone who modifies their vehicle to use an out of specification fuel or otherwise adds performance modifications or otherwise messes with emissions equipment. Remember? Read the home page introduction at www.tdiclub.com