Will The Add Pack Help a PD at start up

[James & Son]

As per the title. I know that any cam lobe after it sits static under load for more than 1-3 minutes will completely displace the oil depending on temperature( estimate static break out 3x greater here compared to even 5 rpm). Is there any antiwear additive that would significantly affect this zone of wear at near or zero rpm start up cold or hot.

 

[TooSlick]

The oil film that provide startup protection is on the order of several microns (um) - its NOT visible to the naked eye. Of course, you have to continually replenish this oil film after a cold start. So here a 0w-xx grade can provide some benefit in very cold conditions.

TS

 

[Lensdude_com]

From what I've read while researching the implementation of a 12V pre-lube oil pump it seems the engine oil additive package requires heat for activating the wear protection. Definitely much less wear occurs during a hot re-start than a cold start especially if the engine has been cold for a few days/weeks/months/years/eons/etc.
I have used 4oz of ZDDPlus with the 5w40 LiquiMoly Diesel High Tech and started plugging in the 1kW coolant heater (also warms the oil to a certain extent) when the overnight temps dipped below 0C/32F. I have to pay $50/month for my stall in the parkade which includes electricity usage so that's covered anyway.
I think what you're looking for in an additive is something that 'plates' all the engine parts that don't have hydrodynamic protection when the engine is off like molybdenum di-sulphide or some (scientifically nanoengineered) witch's brew from Slipkote. The reason I'd be reluctant to use anything else except ZDDPlus is compatibility with the additive package in the engine oil because every additive marketer offers no warranty of how their product will interact with a specific engine oil.

 

[TooSlick]

My understanding is that ZDDP doesn't become fully effective until the oil temp reaches about 160-170F . Other supplemental AW additives like moly and boron may activate at lower temps. When the oil is warming up you're largely relying on the viscosity properties to provide separation of metallic parts.

TS

 

[Lensdude_com]

My understanding is that ZDDP doesn't become fully effective until the oil temp reaches about 160-170F . Other supplemental AW additives like moly and boron may activate at lower temps. When the oil is warming up you're largely relying on the viscosity properties to provide separation of metallic parts.

Are there any anti-wear additives that do provide 'plating' of metal engine parts? Slipkote/LiquiMoly/Resurs/Addo/Schaeffer/Mathy/other????

 

[cbalthazor]

PowerPunch

http://www.powerpunchinc.com/Oil_Supplement_p/pa100-each.htm

It's sticky, slimy stuff. Never used it in a tdi, but it's how I lube up cam bearings in big CAT C9/C15/C18's, among other things that need lube quick after assembly. Heard of a lot of people that swear by using it as an oil additive, and I bet it actually would do ok- it comes out of the bottle extremely sticky. Could see it staying put on cam bearings after the oil cools down.

 

[James & Son]

From what I've read while researching the implementation of a 12V pre-lube oil pump it seems the engine oil additive package requires heat for activating the wear protection. Definitely much less wear occurs during a hot re-start than a cold start especially if the engine has been cold for a few days/weeks/months/years/eons/etc.
I have used 4oz of ZDDPlus with the 5w40 LiquiMoly Diesel High Tech and started plugging in the 1kW coolant heater (also warms the oil to a certain extent) when the overnight temps dipped below 0C/32F. I have to pay $50/month for my stall in the parkade which includes electricity usage so that's covered anyway.
I think what you're looking for in an additive is something that 'plates' all the engine parts that don't have hydrodynamic protection when the engine is off like molybdenum di-sulphide or some (scientifically nanoengineered) witch's brew from Slipkote. The reason I'd be reluctant to use anything else except ZDDPlus is compatibility with the additive package in the engine oil because every additive marketer offers no warranty of how their product will interact with a specific engine oil.

If I look closely at the followers after the black is starting to wear off you can see a clear glass coating( not sure if this part of the black underlay or not) but it could be Zddp glass coating (not sure though).

Take a look at these followers [ #24 ] . Note the yellow tinge. This is what I am looking for, as you say plates out and is present at start up.
I believe this is the antiomy anti-wear additive in Shaeffers 9000.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=729162#Post729162

 

[James & Son]

The oil film that provide startup protection is on the order of several microns (um) - its NOT visible to the naked eye. Of course, you have to continually replenish this oil film after a cold start. So here a 0w-xx grade can provide some benefit in very cold conditions.

TS

the test I refer to is the test i do after inspecting my followers and putting the cam caps back on without the injector rockers. I use a torque whrench to break the cam lose and ratchet as smoothly and asfast as practical which would be around 5 rpm. I have done this with different oils.

0w-40 at 5 rpm at room temperature requires 15 foot lbs.

15w-40 at 5 rpm and room temperature requires 13 foot lbs.

But after I let the oils sit for 5 minutes the break out force is easily double or more. The oil is squeezed out due to static load of follower and lobe and asperities interlock.

I originally did this test to check for bearing alignment when installing cam and found this out by adding different oils to the follower as a prelube. The above is meanless other than to point out the exteme break out load at start up hot or cold. Zddp acts as a sacrificial layer and may not help much if it is not replenished quickly. Probably same for antimony in above post. Like you say needs operating temperature to replenish after surface compromising start up.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say I don't think there is anything that can prevent the next to dry wear on start up. Those that have long highway mile type distances will heal those surfaces( follower surface galling will smooth out with anti-wear additives at temperature). The compromised follower surface integrity may touch,but with the additives at temperature the healing can begin again. Any more compromises at short distances( more restarts) and healing of surfaces( re-smoothing) my not take place fast enough.

I am not necessarily saying the pd cam issue is start up wear. By the way prelube will not help the initial break out but may help in the first few seconds of rotation before full oil hits.

The compromised surfaces are the problem and that is why you add extra Zddp to try to speed up the healing process after a problem is found or prevent galling during a touch down which is preferred. Unfortunately I do not want to destroy my one piece catalytic and exhaust system either.

 

[Lensdude_com]

My 2005 engine was engineered to use CI-4 oil specification that had roughly 50% more zinc than today's CJ-4 specification so I see this as replacing what has been removed by the new spec. I suppose that also means the diesel cat wouldn't suffer as a result of adding ZDDP to a CJ-4 spec engine oil.

 

[Bob_Fout]

My 2005 engine was engineered to use CI-4 oil specification that had roughly 50% more zinc than today's CJ-4 specification so I see this as replacing what has been removed by the new spec. I suppose that also means the diesel cat wouldn't suffer as a result of adding ZDDP to a CJ-4 spec engine oil.

Which truck do you have?

 

[Lensdude_com]

Which truck do you have?

Have the amounts of ZDDP in North American engine oils decreased by ~50% since 2005?

 

[Bob_Fout]

Have the amounts of ZDDP in North American engine oils decreased by ~50% since 2005?

Make no mistake, your 2005 European passenger diesel engine was not designed to use CI-4 or CI-4+ truck oils.

North American petrol or diesel ZDDP levels? We won't worry about petrol engines, so for NA diesel truck engines, CI-4+ zinc levels about 1350 to 1400 ppm, phosphorus, about 1250 to 1300 ppm. For CJ-4, about 1100 to 1200 pm phosphorus, about 1200 to 1300 zinc. The exception to this is the new 5w30 and 10w30 CJ-4 oils.

ZDDP levels of TDT and Delo 5w40 are listed on their PDS for more specific data. Mobil has a nice chart of their oils:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Without doing research I don't know about ZDDP levels for petrol engines like SL, SM, SN and GF-3, GF-4 and GF-5.

 

[Lensdude_com]

Make no mistake, your 2005 European passenger diesel engine was not designed to use CI-4 or CI-4+ truck oils.

North American petrol or diesel ZDDP levels? We won't worry about petrol engines, so for NA diesel truck engines, CI-4+ zinc levels about 1350 to 1400 ppm, phosphorus, about 1250 to 1300 ppm. For CJ-4, about 1100 to 1200 pm phosphorus, about 1200 to 1300 zinc. The exception to this is the new 5w30 and 10w30 CJ-4 oils.

ZDDP levels of TDT and Delo 5w40 are listed on their PDS for more specific data. Mobil has a nice chart of their oils:

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf

Without doing research I don't know about ZDDP levels for petrol engines like SL, SM, SN and GF-3, GF-4 and GF-5.

Thanks for the link Bob There is a heading for VW TDI engines in their FAQ section but the answers lack continuity...
Can Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 Be Used in a Volkswagen Golf TDI?I see that your Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the Volkswagen 504.00/507.00 approval. I have a 2005 Golf diesel that requires Volkswagen 505.01. Your specification sheet says that the ESP Formula can be used in applications requiring 505.01, but it says except for pump duse TDI without longlife service and DPF between 1999 and 2003. My Golf is a pump duse TDI and does not have longlife service or a DPF but wasn't built between 1999 and 2003. Can I use this oil in my 2005 TDI? Thanks-- Eugene Lynes, Sacramento, CA

Answer: You can use Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 for this application.
The this:

Question: Oil for Volkswagen TDI Diesel EnginesI have a new Volkswagen TDI diesel and the warranty says it must use only VW oil, which is synthetic (made by Castrol). I've used Mobil 1 in all my cars for 20 years and would like to stick with Mobil 1, Help.-- John Gaylord, Corvallis, OR

Answer: Unfortunately we do not currently have an oil in the United States for this particular application which requires VW 505.01.


So?

 

[Bob_Fout]

Thanks for the link Bob There is a heading for VW TDI engines in their FAQ section but the answers lack continuity...
Can Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 Be Used in a Volkswagen Golf TDI?I see that your Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 has the Volkswagen 504.00/507.00 approval. I have a 2005 Golf diesel that requires Volkswagen 505.01. Your specification sheet says that the ESP Formula can be used in applications requiring 505.01, but it says except for pump duse TDI without longlife service and DPF between 1999 and 2003. My Golf is a pump duse TDI and does not have longlife service or a DPF but wasn't built between 1999 and 2003. Can I use this oil in my 2005 TDI? Thanks-- Eugene Lynes, Sacramento, CA

Answer: You can use Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5W-30 for this application.
The this:

Question: Oil for Volkswagen TDI Diesel EnginesI have a new Volkswagen TDI diesel and the warranty says it must use only VW oil, which is synthetic (made by Castrol). I've used Mobil 1 in all my cars for 20 years and would like to stick with Mobil 1, Help.-- John Gaylord, Corvallis, OR

Answer: Unfortunately we do not currently have an oil in the United States for this particular application which requires VW 505.01.


So?

What are the dates for each of those Q&A? [M1 ESP 5w30 didn't show up here until 2006 or 2007, even then, very rare]

Mobil is correct, they have no 505.01 oil in the US. They do have a 507.00/504.00 oil, which VW says is backwards compatible for all previous specs except in specific situations.

 

[Lensdude_com]

What are the dates for each of those Q&A? [M1 ESP 5w30 didn't show up here until 2006 or 2007, even then, very rare]

Mobil is correct, they have no 505.01 oil in the US. They do have a 507.00/504.00 oil, which VW says is backwards compatible for all previous specs except in specific situations.

Fuchs Titan GT1 5w30 VW507.00 is compatible with 505.00/505.01/506.00/506.01 although Castrol SLX Professional states their 507.00 does not meet the VW505.01 spec. This shows that not all VW507.00 oils meet the VW505.01 specification. I know that VW changed their spec from 5w30 to 5w40 for a few reasons that amount to the same thing in that 5w40 offers better protection.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=244676

 

[Bob_Fout]

Fuchs Titan GT1 5w30 VW507.00 is compatible with 505.00/505.01/506.00/506.01 although Castrol SLX Professional states their 507.00 does not meet the VW505.01 spec. This shows that not all VW507.00 oils meet the VW505.01 specification. I know that VW changed their spec from 5w30 to 5w40 for a few reasons that amount to the same thing in that 5w40 offers better protection.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=244676

Just like Mobil, Castrol is correct, they have oils that are specifically 505.01, which a 507.00 oil is specifically not. VW HQ [VWOA and VW AG] have already told us in writing that 507.00 can be used where 505.01 is specified.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=1480828&postcount=1

We even have seen favorable UOAs and cam inspections with 507.00 in PDs.

Wrong direction on the visco, it went from 5w40 to 5w30 for 505.01, 0w30 for 506.00/506.01 and 5w30 for 507.00/504.00.