Why You Should Not Buy A Dsg Transmission

[Diesl]

What does all that Piston Heads UK nonsense have to to with why you should not buy a dsg? Manual vs auto .........mustang in UK was not offered with a DSG. Your point is?

Indeed. I think quite a few people here simply don't 'get' the double-clutch automated manual, and prefer to stick to their worn automatic-vs-manual plus chicks-can't-drive s(h)tick...

 

[rotarykid]

Indeed. I think quite a few people here simply don't 'get' the double-clutch automated manual, and prefer to stick to their worn automatic-vs-manual plus chicks-can't-drive s(h)tick...

We who chose a diesel powered car decades ago for one reason get it better than most.......All automatics cost more as a option, are heavier and loose energy while passing the engine's energy to the wheels so use more fuel, require more service over their service life, and will have shorter service lives compared to the same vehicle with a manual trans.......

By the way I had a 06 PD which had a DSG, so I do have many miles clocked with me trying to reduce that penalty, so I have real world miles clocked showing that this DSG consumption penalty does still exists......

So no other currently available option, DSG TDI, man trans or automatic direct injection gasser, or hybrid which can come close to what you can still see today in a TDI diesel & manual trans setup......

Nothing offered today can come close to a manual trans diesel's mpgs while traveling at current legally allowed today freeway speeds in the western US.....Also the DSG's City mpg penalty while just putting it in D is much more noticeable when compared to a driver that is well trains in fuel savings techniques in a manual or DSG equipped TDI.

And on the highway today the real costs of the best of what is offered today with a automatic trans are seen a Long time before you get CLOSE to the currently allowed and legal high speed limits today. In the best hybrids or direct injection gassars they loose this race by ~10 mpgs or higher when 75 mph is passed on the clock.......

Again I have recently watched the current best of the direct injection gassers offered today loose 15+ mpgs when a steady 75-80 mph is reached and held for hours.

On a recent trip across Utah, Wyoming and Colorado just a few weeks back on I-70, I-80 & I-15 posted today @ 75-80 mph I watched a fuel sipping Hyundai sedan drop from a steady 30+ mpgs @ 60-65-70 mph maximum down to a pen & paper clocked 17-18 mpgs when 75 mph was passed to approach real world legally allowed speeds today in the low 80s.

And the drop in mpgs was unbelievably once the currently allowed today 82-84 mph constant was driven for 1,500+ miles while crossing these states. I saw the exact same drop in my DSG equipped TDI-PD Jetta, just not as much of a drop but a drop none the less............

I have observed the exact same drop in hybrids when real world allowed today speeds were approached and held......

And even the DSG, which is one of the best automatic transmissions ever conceived of or built still pays this penalty....

My 97 Passat TDI easily sustains 48-52 mpgs while traveling @ the same speeds on the same Utah highways, I have years of records while traveling 10s of thousands of miles across the high speed allowed west to back this up....

I also have a close friend with a 2012 man trans Golf TDI-CR who easily breaks the 40 mpg mark while doing similar on the same freeways @ the same speeds......

So saying we who do not want a DSG are not informed about the DSG's performance is a bunch of whooie. We who do not want them because we are well aware and not willing to pay their real costs are plenty informed in this argument.....

 

[S2000_guy]

Why would I pay $1,000 more to buy a new car with a transmission that is EPA rated for about 5% lower fuel economy and requires a service every 40k miles vs 100k miles for the manual? Without even getting into the discussion of whether it's OK to ignore the manufacturer's ratings and tow with the DSG?

 

[MichaelB]

Why would I pay $1,000 more to buy a new car with a transmission that is EPA rated for about 5% lower fuel economy and requires a service every 40k miles vs 100k miles for the manual? Without even getting into the discussion of whether it's OK to ignore the manufacturer's ratings and tow with the DSG?

I did because weighing all those factors I still want a self shift transmission instead of a two handed two legged work out when I drive my car. ain't modern technology great. I don't have to get out of my chair to change channels on my TV anymore either.

 

[S2000_guy]

You apparently made the right decision for you. I made a different decision... Neither is "right" or "wrong", just based on different criteria. There are pros and cons to be considered on both sides.

In the last 10 years, I've had to work around a right shoulder injury and a left knee injury with manual transmissions. I considered the DSG in case either recurred, but decided I didn't want to pay the price for the DSG.

One quick question: how many more dollars would you pay for the TV remote if it was an option. I'd wager it would be less than $1,000. So we may not be comparing apples to apples here...

 

[MichaelB]

One quick question: how many more dollars would you pay for the TV remote if it was an option. I'd wager it would be less than $1,000. So we may not be comparing apples to apples here...

A TV doesn't cost what a car does but if the extra cost was to the same proportion I would pay the difference and get the remote as to saving money and not having it.

 

[frugality]

Manual diesels are good cars to learn stick shift on, because they are harder to stall than gassers (more torque at low rpms).
Back when I learned to drive, in the old country, a lot of driving schools used VW Golf diesels.

I think that my old 99.5 ALH would have been ideal for learning a stick, as well as my '04 BEW wagon.

The ALH's with their mechanical injection had a defined "injection quantity at idle." This made for a good amount of oomph right off the line. Just let out the clutch, and the car pulled away with no throttle input. Great for a beginner.

I wouldn't put a beginner in a CR TDI. With the piezo injectors and the DPF, the idle quantity is so lean that there is just no torque there. You have to feed a little fuel with the right pedal to make sure it doesn't stall. I still stall my JSW on rare occasions, usually in the summer with the A/C on. That little bit of extra power being sapped by the compressor puts you even closer to stalling. After a stall or two in early summer, I'll remember for the rest of the season.

But I wouldn't at all recommend a CR TDI for a new driver learning a manual. Too much finesse required.

 

[massivslinky]

Just my 2 cents. I have my manual monster. In addition to my 2015 DSG Jetta TDI, I have a 2005 WRX STi. I've been daily driving it for the last 10 years and decided for something a little bit more civilized for daily driving. My 05 is far from stock. I've got a stage 2 Exedy 3 Puck racing clutch. I've driven it in stop and go and can do it smoothly. KW v3 coilovers and a stage 2+ tune (303 hp 330 ft/lb at the wheels).

That said, the DSG is giving me a real world 43 mpg vs. my STi's 20 mpg. Different driving experiences by far, but the DSG does just fine and is much more fun to drive than a prius. I bought this car when I thought my engine on the 05 was toast, but just turned out to be a dirty MAF. I'd been wanting one and this was the perfect excuse. I like manuals, but DSG is the next best thing. Reliability is the real question. It's an unknown so far, but I've got 60K miles and 5 years to see how that plays out. Nice thing is I was able to buy the car outright, so no car payments. I'd say it really comes down to what a person needs. I love manuals, but already have a damn good one, so I wanted to dry something different.

Pros for manual:

More driver involvement.
When I drive my STi I need all four limbs and I concentrate on driving.
The fun of mastering shifting. I can rev-match and double clutch my downshifts. I've also learned to heal toe around turns. I can shift this car smother than an automatic.

Cons:
Brutal in bumper to bumper stop and go. My aggressive clutch does not like to be slipped.
Harder to drive with AC on. 4 cylinder turbo is more sensitive to the drag of a compressor than a v6 or higher cylinder and displacement vehicle.


DSG pros.
Easy drive in stop and go traffic.
Still get high MPG 43+mpg as long as I don't drive like an A**.
Actually, not doing to bad even when I drive like an A**.
More relaxing for a daily commute.

Cons:
More relaxing for daily commute (driver doesn't need to concentrate as much).
Not as responsive in a pinch. In the manual, it's quite easy to downshift and kick it up a notch. If in D in DSG, you have to wait for the computer to figure out you mean business.

DSG or Manual, this is a great platform. I love this car for what I got. I've already got a Track capable monster. I wanted to try something different. Otherwise, I would have got an R32. That's a nice car too, but I needed something a bit more civil.

 

[ZippyNH]

And too make it more complex, the 2015 motors have different, higher DSG gearing on the highway, thanks go the (IMO) improved TQ band of the new motor...about 2000 rpm at 72 if I recall right...
So the penalty for highway use of a DSG is not really there...the final drive ratio's are now much more similar than in prior years....

 

[gmcjetpilot]

"A direct-shift gearbox (German: Direkt-Schalt-Getriebe), commonly
abbreviated to DSG, is an electronically controlled dual-clutch multiple-
shaft manual gearbox, in a transaxle design – without a conventional clutch
pedal, and with full automatic, or semi-manual control. The first actual
dual-clutch transmissions derived from Porsche in-house development for
962 racing cars in the 1980s." Wiki

"A dual-clutch transmission, (DCT) (sometimes referred to as a twin-
clutch transmission or double-clutch transmission), is a type of
automatic transmission or automated automotive transmission. It uses two
separate clutches for odd and even gear sets. It can fundamentally be
described as two separate manual transmissions (with their respective
clutches) contained within one housing, and working as one unit. They are
usually operated in a fully automatic mode, and many also have the ability
to allow the driver to manually shift gears in semi-automatic mode, albeit
still carried out by the transmission's electro-hydraulics."

What does a VW TDI with a DSG (Dual Clutch) transmission have in
common with the following cars:

DSG, DSG, DSG, Ferrari 488, Bugatti Veyron and Nissan GT-R.... all have DSG, dual clutch trans....

So what is best? Technically the DSG hands down. Granted the DSG loses some "emotional"
connection some folks have row'ing a gearbox with da knob on a stick. Manual transmissions
are slowly fading away, but they are still lighter and cheaper. Nuff Said.

 

[dubStrom]

Big difference between those ultra high end vehicles and a pedestrian Jetta/Golf.

Delay? What difference does 1-20 mph delay make or lane change 20-30mph delay in acceleration performance mean for a vehicle like that... nothing.

But even if I could afford one, I'd want a clutch. Control, Control, Control.

Millionaire toy does not equal race car or daily driver, and maintenance is no big deal for anyone that can afford one of them. And a few extra miles per gallon equally insignificant. Not sure how or why those examples should convince anyone about DSG, unless they want to buy one of them!

 

[Diesl]

Big difference between those ultra high end vehicles and a pedestrian Jetta/Golf.

That's right. Our DSGs upshift in 8 milliseconds. The fastest Ferrari in this list takes 60ms.

... And a few extra miles per gallon equally insignificant.

I think there's a lot of confusion out there regarding mpg differences. It helps to think in mpg ratios, to not fall victim to the inverse relationship between mpg and fuel usage.
If you are improving from 10 mpg to 12.5 mpg, you are saving two gallons per hundred miles. Going from 20 mpg to 25 mpg, you are still saving a whole gallon. Going from 33 mpg to 40 mpg only saves you half a gallon for that distance. 38 to 42 mpg, a quart.
So, a few mpg difference when you are in the low teens is huge, but once you are in the thirties or forties it's negligible.

 

[timmyc4]

Bought my first 2014 Passat TDI Automatic.... Always had Manuals in my TDI's (owned 4 previously) Have terminal cancer and some days I Sure LOVE The Auto !

 

[whesselton]

I'm 6' 4", 230lbs and I look like Paul Bunyan on a bad day. I drive a '15 GSW w/DSG. Why? Because it's a freakin' way to get to and from work with the least amount of hassle. I don't care how often it does or doesn't break. Why? Because I get rid of cars when the lease is up so they are always fixed under the warranty and I get a loaner for free. That's right. I'm on to the new model every two or three years. To each his own. IMO, manuals are for the track and are more fun to drive (in the right car and certainly NOT a diesel!) How much fun are you having sitting in traffic using both feet at all times? Where is the WOW factor in that BS? When I'm sitting in traffic, I've got the windows rolled down, Fender sound system blasting with my foot on the break while I'm leaning back smoking my cigarette and 'facebooking' or 'Tweetin'. I don't have time to be shifting gears man. You manual purists (I use the term loosely) that are dogging the DSG and the guys/gals that drive them are just stuck in your ways. Ever heard of advancements in technology? I'll bet you all still have rotary phones at home. DSG or any automatic transmission is the supreme method of getting from point A to point B without headache. Get over it.

 

[mkane]

No traffic here in the North. But, when in traffic the car will go 3mph on it's own. No need to use the clutch. No need to follow the car in front so close that you need to constantly brake. The 6spd feels so nice.

 

[gmcjetpilot]

No traffic here in the North. But, when in traffic the car will go 3mph on it's own. No need to use the clutch. No need to follow the car in front so close that you need to constantly brake. The 6spd feels so nice.

The DSG is 6spd and feels so nice, also no clutch needed at 3mph with DSG...... so your point?

 

[SoTxBill]

You start out with most prefer a manual...

Out of all new cars sold today manual transmissions is less than 10% of all cars sold, down from 35% in 1980.

Then you say they break more.

I have had 5 now, and none have broke. I did however have one of my chipped jettas make the clutch slip on cold days and had to fix it.

You say service is higher, and yes, you finally got that one correct however it is now starting to drop in price.

You talk about performance yet the dsg shifts faster, up and down.

And now in the case of mpg,, the dsg is very close and in the small honda, the auto get better mpg with the variable tranny.

In the case of durability, the hd pickups now only ship with autos as they have worked out the bugs and the 800 lbs of torque is taking out clutches on the manuals too quickly.

About the only thing you have rationalized, is that manual transmissions are for guys with small.... well you get the gist of the old story about IQ.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

I just borrowed a manual tranny car for the weekend a couple of weeks ago, and it had a worn out clutch. It felt like a temperamental mule.

It reminded me why I abandoned manual trannies 15 years ago.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Maybe you should drive one that's working properly. It might give a better impression.

 

[pknopp]

In a pinch my wife can drive my car with a DSG.....She can if she has to drive a standard but would rather not.

Me having a car she can drive makes her happy. That makes me happy. If she is also happy she cares less about my toys she has no desire to drive. Again, I am happy.

Besides, I really don't mind the DSG. Sometimes I have to stop and actually count the shifts to make sure they are all still there.

 

[croppz]

I can buy the stuff I need to do my DSG service on my own for 140-150 bucks. Can you buy a new clutch and everything else needed for the maintenance of a manual for 150 bucks? Nope. Your argument is flawed.

 

[oilhammer]

I can buy the stuff I need to do my DSG service on my own for 140-150 bucks. Can you buy a new clutch and everything else needed for the maintenance of a manual for 150 bucks? Nope. Your argument is flawed.

Except the VAST majority of manual cars' cluches easily outlast the DSG cars' DMFs. By a wide margin.

 

[croppz]

Except the VAST majority of manual cars' cluches easily outlast the DSG cars' DMFs. By a wide margin.

I'm sure they do, however just to write off buying a DSG because you have to change the fluid and filter every 40k is idiotic. I changed the auto trans fluid and filter in my wrangler every 40k lol. It's no different, it's preventative maintenance.

 

[Grievous Angel]

I never got comfortable with the DSG. There seemed to be no "coasting." Coasting is good. If I didn't manage it just right it would downshift coming to a stop, engine braking and all. Not like a normal auto transmission.

I'm not a downshifter when driving a manual and I didn't like it when the DSG would do it--sometimes violently. I started managing it with the "manumatic" option.

I put 83k miles on it. I appreciate it for what it was. But I could never get comfortable with it. Not like I am with a MT. Or even a more conventional automatic.

 

[Grievous Angel]

I'm sure they do, however just to write off buying a DSG because you have to change the fluid and filter every 40k is idiotic. I changed the auto trans fluid and filter in my wrangler every 40k lol. It's no different, it's preventative maintenance.

Difference is price. 40k is pretty frequent, which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't a 700 dollar service.

Not everyone is equipped to do it themselves.

If you're willing to pay it, or do it yourself, bully. The DSG definitely offers benefits that might make it worth it to you.

I wish I had done more homework.

 

[makattack]

Wow... just found this thread. I'll admit it. I'm a manual transmission driver... and I probably will be until cars basically drive themselves without operator controls.

The reason goes way back to when I first learned on a MT car as a 16 y.o, and continued in the USArmy where I ended up having to learn to drive a MT 2.5 ton truck.

The control and connection I have to the vehicle I'm driving is why I often drive without music. I want to hear the motor (talk about weird when I drove my first EV auto), road noise, wind, etc to use all my senses for driving. Granted, I do listen to music on long drives, but until I got a bluetooth enabled car, didn't even answer my mobile phone while driving.

That's really the only reason keeping me in a manual tranny car -- every single car I had from ~1993 onwards have been manual (3: two subies I owned and my current VW GSW TDI lease -- yeah, I didn't trust VW so went with a lease... sheesh, that's a whole 'nuther story). I'm a bit of a control freak, and I think the US Government effectively indoctrinated/brainwashed/trained me into appreciating the "connectivity" to the machine I'm operating (be it car, bike, truck, armored vehicle, weapon, etc.)

Heck, I am one of the few people I know who owns and regularly uses a high quality tire pressure gauge before every long trip. The indirect TPMS system might make it seem silly and redundant, but I'm not familiar enough with its reliability and accuracy to trust it. I also check fluids and the tire pressure of the spare on a regular basis. Like I said, the USGov. pretty well brain washed me into an automaton for good operator preventive maintenance. This is now a huge tangent on POM.

Back on track: I've had to rent and drive other peoples auto. transmission vehicles. I've never driven a DSG. I feel bad for those vehicles, as without fail, I will usually at one point or another find myself slamming on the brakes because my clutch foot automatically sought out the clutch when coming to a complete stop. Why they make (or used to) some automatic cars with wide brake pedals never ceased to amaze me... that's also a tangent.

 

[Diesl]

Makattack, the DSG gives you (well, at least me) a direct mechanical connection from the crankshaft to the road, just as in a manual. Your pre-drive check sounds like basic sound practice, a subset of the checks you do before starting a bike.

Grievous, in order to coast you have to put the DSG into neutral, just like a manual. Not everybody thinks that is safe practice, though.

 

[oilhammer]

,... 700 dollar service.
...
I wish I had done more homework.

So does your wallet. I could do it THRICE for $700. Wow.

 

[ZippyNH]

So does your wallet. I could do it THRICE for $700. Wow.

$700!!
Asked my dealer, and they said it was $350!!
Think the guy getting charged $700 is getting bent over!!!
Think they are charging enough for most dealers to do it TWICE!!

 

[Grievous Angel]

$700!!
Asked my dealer, and they said it was $350!!
Think the guy getting charged $700 is getting bent over!!!
Think they are charging enough for most dealers to do it TWICE!!

It was the 80k service. There were other things done.

Still, more expensive than about any "preventative maintenance" I've ever had done. the 40k service was similar . .half of it is DSG.

As to "trusted mechanics." There wasn't any in my area. There's a VW shop in B'ham that wouldn't do DSG. So it was left to Royal VW (B'ham).