Why I won't use biodiesel

[doonboggle]

http://www.thecybertruckstop.com/DS/fuelprices.html

So, if biodiesel is such a great thing why not just use pure biodiesel? Well, there are some cases in which pure biodiesel (B100) is appropriate but, at least for commercial trucks, the use of pure biodiesel can cause some problems. For example:

• Gelling Temperature: Biodiesel gels at a higher temperature (32 degrees) than standard #2 diesel (-15 degrees). This isn't a problem with biodiesel/petro-diesel blends of 20% or less (B20 - B2) but it makes the use of B100 unworkable in a commercial vehicle.
• Lower BTU Rating: A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is defined as the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water from 60° to 61°F at a constant pressure of one atmosphere. A study done by the University of North Dakota indicated that, while there are significant fluctuations, #2 diesel contains about 140,000 BTUs per gallon while B100 contains about 130,000 BTUs. (B20 contains 138,000 BTUs.)
• Higher Nitrogen Oxide Emissions: Since biodiesel contains no nitrogen, the increase in NOx emissions is probably due to the higher cetane rating and the high oxygen content of biodiesel. These two qualities are thought to cause the nitrogen contained in the air to be converted into NOx during combustion.
• Higher Solvent Properties: Because biodiesel acts as a solvent it's likely, when used in an engine that ran previously on petro-diesel, that any sediment in the fuel system might be washed into the engine's filters and fuel injectors. Rubber gaskets and hoses will also degrade at a higher rate. This means that filters will need to be changed within 1000 miles of changing to a biodiesel blend and the hoses and gaskets will eventually need to be changed to something that doesn't react to biodiesel; like Viton.

 

[Long_Range]

I've posted many times before. Running anything more than B2 is a waste.
"Bio diesel is a fuel additive."

Corn based Ethanol is a joke from Satin.

I blended in some B11 a while back. Half tank. It ran good. toped off agian with D2 at haldf tank. still runs good. I can top off again at half tank then still have over B1.

We in Illinois get B11 or B20 at the pump since State subsidies kick in at B10 and B19. Now if they would just take their subsidies and , uh, well you know.

 

[BKmetz]

The biodiesel advocates on this forum and everywhere else don't care about biodiesel's limitations and will use it anyway.

.

 

[ibanix]

So don't use it. And don't post about not using it. Problem solved.

 

[soberups]

The biodiesel advocates on this forum and everywhere else don't care about biodiesel's limitations and will use it anyway.

.

You are correct. I am well aware of biodiesels limitations, and I damn well will use it anyway.
Gelling temperature of biodiesel is not an issue to anyone with enough intelligence to properly blend to the appropriate percentage for the weather conditions.
Lower BTU's of biodiesel are not an issue since the only consequence is a slight decrease in MPG's...irrelevant on a car that already gets 40MPG and still far superior to the typical gasser hog.
NOX emissions of biodiesel are not an issue since the *slight* increase in NOX is more than offset by decreases in net CO2, sulfur and soot.
Higher solvent properties of biodiesel are not an issue for anyone with enough intelligence to change their fuel filter if needed. Degradation of fuel lines is only a concern for pre '97 cars and can be remedied (by anyone with a brain) by buying $20 worth of Viton tubing.

The biodiesel opponents on this forum and everywhere else don't care about PETROLEUM diesel's limitations and will use it anyway.

 

[Long_Range]

soberups:
not wanting to start a spat here. but really. What fuel do you use to heat your home?
How many light bulbs are burning in your house right now?
How do you feel about $4.50 gallon milk so you can save the world with your E-85?
How do you feel about Obama using a photo opp to pump E-85 into his 9 mpg Suburban. With a smile on his stupid Chicago gangster face. (note: I'm from Illinois and know what he is) (note: Our last governor was a Republican and is avoiding jail after being convicted.)
Obama went out and bought a Ford SUV hybrid and actually bragged about it after that one. I am so impressed.
Just in case you wonder why I seem so upset. The same politics that subsidize ADM to make bio fuels also subsidized big agriculture to run family farms extinct. That would be my family.
Last twenty years those same subsidies have destroyed thousands of family farms in Mexico. Resulting in a bit of an immigration issue. So we have people forced off their land replacing people forced off their land. DUH
So tell me soberups just how you and your type are saving the world.
Don't get me wrong soberups. You didn't piss me off. I've been pissed off since Jimmy Carter went to work. And I even voted for him. So I know how people can be mislead.
Hopefully we can all get along.

I think we should ban beans since we all know they make you fart out methane gas. We should replace that with meat since the cow farts are out in the pasture where we can't smell them.
Now if you don't grasp that go ahead and keep that smile.

Did I forget to mention my issues with Government bio planing?

Reference thread title.

 

[ckhenshaw4]

You are correct. I am well aware of biodiesels limitations, and I damn well will use it anyway.
Gelling temperature of biodiesel is not an issue to anyone with enough intelligence to properly blend to the appropriate percentage for the weather conditions.
Lower BTU's of biodiesel are not an issue since the only consequence is a slight decrease in MPG's...irrelevant on a car that already gets 40MPG and still far superior to the typical gasser hog.
NOX emissions of biodiesel are not an issue since the *slight* increase in NOX is more than offset by decreases in net CO2, sulfur and soot.
Higher solvent properties of biodiesel are not an issue for anyone with enough intelligence to change their fuel filter if needed. Degradation of fuel lines is only a concern for pre '97 cars and can be remedied (by anyone with a brain) by buying $20 worth of Viton tubing.
Completely agree with you !!!! When we make our Biodiesel, we support more of the farmers in the USA than we do when we buy ALL of our oil from FOREIGN contries don't we ????? So if you are a farmer, you should be glad that people want to make biodiesel shouldn't you. The more soybeans that are used to make it, the more you can plant, sell, and make a profit !!!

 

[soberups]

soberups:
not wanting to start a spat here. but really. What fuel do you use to heat your home?
How many light bulbs are burning in your house right now?
How do you feel about $4.50 gallon milk so you can save the world with your E-85?
How do you feel about Obama using a photo opp to pump E-85 into his 9 mpg Suburban. With a smile on his stupid Chicago gangster face. (note: I'm from Illinois and know what he is) (note: Our last governor was a Republican and is avoiding jail after being convicted.)
Obama went out and bought a Ford SUV hybrid and actually bragged about it after that one. I am so impressed.
Just in case you wonder why I seem so upset. The same politics that subsidize ADM to make bio fuels also subsidized big agriculture to run family farms extinct. That would be my family.
Last twenty years those same subsidies have destroyed thousands of family farms in Mexico. Resulting in a bit of an immigration issue. So we have people forced off their land replacing people forced off their land. DUH
So tell me soberups just how you and your type are saving the world.
Don't get me wrong soberups. You didn't piss me off. I've been pissed off since Jimmy Carter went to work. And I even voted for him. So I know how people can be mislead.
Hopefully we can all get along.

I think we should ban beans since we all know they make you fart out methane gas. We should replace that with meat since the cow farts are out in the pasture where we can't smell them.
Now if you don't grasp that go ahead and keep that smile.

Did I forget to mention my issues with Government bio planing?

Reference thread title.

To amswer your questions; I heat my home with a woodstove and high efficiency natural gas.... I dont know how many light bulbs are burning right now in my home but I do know they are the low energy flourescent models....and I dont recall ever paying more than $2.99 a gallon for milk. As far as "saving the world with my E85" goes....I think it is idiotic to tout "flexfuel" as an option for SUV's, or to even produce it using corn. I run E85 in my van simply because I want to support the same company (Sequential Biofuels) that makes my biodiesel. Locally. From RECYCLED cooking oil. In a perfect world we wouldn't be growing corn to make ethanol at all, I agree with you on that point. As for the corn farmers who have been driven under by ADM....what if there was instead a demand for hemp oil, or switchgrass, or rapeseed? What if we made biofuel locally, from crops that could be grown by small farms on marginal land, using less water, fetilizer or pesticides? What if small, local co-ops were able to make their own fuel from these crops instead of our entire energy supply being imported?
Oh, by the way....I'm not voting for Obama, either.

 

[Murphy2000]

http://www.thecybertruckstop.com/DS/fuelprices.html

So, if biodiesel is such a great thing why not just use pure biodiesel? Well, there are some cases in which pure biodiesel (B100) is appropriate but, at least for commercial trucks, the use of pure biodiesel can cause some problems. For example:

The key word in all that is "Can cause some problems".

Regular petrol diesel can cause some problems too.. The only thing is that most folks are so accustomed to dealing with those problems that they aren't called problems anymore..

Did you know that people who run biodiesel all the time don't need to change their fuel filters as often? That's because biodiesel is a clean fuel with very little particulate matter in it. Petrol diesel on the other hand is filled with particulates. Why do you think you have to change a fuel filter on a diesel but not a gasser?
The reason is because diesel fuel is a freaking by-product of making gasoline.. Think about that.. the petrol companies are selling you their junk by-product and slapping a nice name on it...

Ok.. in all reality,
Biodiesel is no more or less a fuel than regular diesel fuel is. Anyone who has reservations about using it is probably dealing with emotional issues about putting something "new" into their fuel tank.

There are many "easy" solutions in this world (think petroleum as a whole) that make our lives easier. These same easy solutions are poisoning our planet and its ALL of our responsibility to do what we can.

Claiming you wont run biodiesel because you need to change the way you fuel your vehicle and take a few precautions is a lazy cop-out.. An excuse to not have to do something.

Let me qualify all that by saying that if you live in Maine, then I can understand your reluctance to use a fuel that goes solid at 40 deg. But you should still use it in the summer.

 

[Lug_Nut]

Why I won't drink water:

Gelling Temperature Water solidifies at 32F. There is no gradual change with a thickening phase to inform of the impending change of state. It instantly transforms from a liquid at 32F to a solid at 32F.
Lower BTU Rating The BTU (or caloric) heat content of water is nil.
Higher Hydrogen Emissions Despite it's apparently innocuous appearance and zero heat content, water is 2/3 explosive hydrogen gas and 1/3 oxydizing oxygen.
Higher Solvent Properties Water is corrosive enough to dissolve minerals and metals.

 

[ibanix]

Fear the dihydrogen monoxide!

Gelling Temperature Water solidifies at 32F. There is no gradual change with a thickening phase to inform of the impending change of state. It instantly transforms from a liquid at 32F to a solid at 32F.
Lower BTU Rating The BTU (or caloric) heat content of water is nil.
Higher Hydrogen Emissions Despite it's apparently innocuous appearance and zero heat content, water is 2/3 explosive hydrogen gas and 1/3 oxydizing oxygen.
Higher Solvent Properties Water is corrosive enough to dissolve minerals and metals.

 

[ikendu]

How do you feel about $4.50 gallon milk ...big agriculture to run family farms extinct. That would be my family.

So... let me get this right. You are from a farming family ...and, you are upset that farmers who raise corn are finally getting a decent price for their corn?

I was raised on a small dairy farm in Ohio (98 acres). We worked pretty darn hard for the small living we got from that farm (Dad, Mom and three boys).

I don't think we can "Save the Earth" by only converting corn to ethanol. Even if every last kernal were converted, we only displace about 15% of our gasoline. On the other hand, burning ethanol in our vehicles is far less dangerous to the Earth than petroleum. Less pollution, less CO2 and fewer wars to fight because God made a mistake and put "our oil" under someone else's sand. Maybe it wasn't God that made the mistake... maybe it is us.

Although coal and natural gas are the largest fossil fuel inputs to corn ethanol, very little actual oil is consumed. The USDA says that 1 BTU of oil consumed to make ethanol gets you 13.2 BTUs of ethanol. That 13:1 ratio really helps with foreign oil dependence. I'm proud that American farmers help with foreign oil dependence. I don't begrudge them some profit for taking all the risks and hard work of farming.

My wife says that all of the anger and denial she sees around the global warming/fossil fuels discussions is the like the 5 stages of grief she learned about as a hospice volunteer (anger, denial, bargaining, depression and finally... acceptance). The anger has to come out before people can get to acceptance and get on with their lives.

Here is an excerpt from my book that discusses that...

http://www.itsgood4.us/excerpt5stages.htm

 

[slapshotjh]

So those of us that make our own B100 must be genuine numbskulls!

 

[weedeater]

To amswer your questions; I heat my home with a woodstove ...

So, I'm not the only one contributing to global warming by burning trees...

 

[Yelram]

So... let me get this right. You are from a farming family ...and, you are upset that farmers who raise corn are finally getting a decent price for their corn?

I was raised on a small dairy farm in Ohio (98 acres). We worked pretty darn hard for the small living we got from that farm (Dad, Mom and three boys).

I don't think we can "Save the Earth" by only converting corn to ethanol. Even if every last kernal were converted, we only displace about 15% of our gasoline. On the other hand, burning ethanol in our vehicles is far less dangerous to the Earth than petroleum. Less pollution, less CO2 and fewer wars to fight because God made a mistake and put "our oil" under someone else's sand. Maybe it wasn't God that made the mistake... maybe it is us.

Although coal and natural gas are the largest fossil fuel inputs to corn ethanol, very little actual oil is consumed. The USDA says that 1 BTU of oil consumed to make ethanol gets you 13.2 BTUs of ethanol. That 13:1 ratio really helps with foreign oil dependence. I'm proud that American farmers help with foreign oil dependence. I don't begrudge them some profit for taking all the risks and hard work of farming.

My wife says that all of the anger and denial she sees around the global warming/fossil fuels discussions is the like the 5 stages of grief she learned about as a hospice volunteer (anger, denial, bargaining, depression and finally... acceptance). The anger has to come out before people can get to acceptance and get on with their lives.

Here is an excerpt from my book that discusses that...

http://www.itsgood4.us/excerpt5stages.htm

Hahaha Ha Ha HAHAHA. Ok this just shows how little you understand about the process of producing ethanol. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329132436.htm

Save the earth by using 6 times as much energy and causing starvation in 3rd world countries. Yeah that sounds like a perfect solution. Take away our food supplies just for some ideological pipe dream. There is plenty of oil in the US, it has been argued that with the price of oil where its at now that using shale deposits will soon be a profitable venture, which makes colorado the new middle east.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_shale
There is no such thing as human caused global warming. The fact that anyone who has a grasp on the size and massiveness of the earth, and the amount of greenhouse gases nessecary to raise the earth even a tenth of a degree would have such an inconceivable belief is quite comical. Yet even a mild variation of the suns intensity can raise the whole earths temperature significantly. I really think its quite pompous to believe that we as humans can alter the temperature of the entire earth using a process of oxidation that is at the root of every living being. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
Theres our neighbor, getting hotter, no ICE's there (pardon my word place). One day this will be in history books as a big joke, and you people who are buying into it to the degree of being an activist/advocate will be the punch line.

 

[ikendu]

Hahaha Ha Ha HAHAHA. Ok this just shows how little you understand about the process of producing ethanol. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050329132436.htm.

Ah, Patzek and Pimental, the one reinforces the other and they both work off of data that Pimental produced in the '90s. Every year you read about a "new study" that shows that ethanol take more energy to produce than it provides. Do you know that of 6 different researchers that Pimental is the only one that finds an energy loss result? Hmmm... let's see, Pimental says that the energy to grow corn should all be accounted for in the ethanol, even though after distilling, the "leftovers" (distiller's grains) contain about a third of the food value of the original corn and provide a high protein animal feed. Ever toured an ethanol factory? I have. Two of them. Ever seen the cattle eating the distiller's grains? I have. Two different times.

One of the ethanol factories I visited was E3Biofuels in Mead, Nebraska. You might find their site interesting.

http://www.e3biofuels.com/

There is no such thing as human caused global warming. The fact that anyone who has a grasp on the size and massiveness of the earth, and the amount of greenhouse gases nessecary to raise the earth even a tenth of a degree would have such an inconceivable belief is quite comical.

Well... I guess you are reinforcing my earlier post about anger and denial. To deny global warming at this point is to accept that your knowledge of climate science is stronger than the 2500 scientists of the IPCC and the other scientists that validated their results at the U.S. National Academy of Science (at the request of the Bush administration).

You might know more about it than they do. Maybe.

 

[Long_Range]

So those of us that make our own B100 must be genuine numbskulls!

Never meant to imply anything like that.
I've some biodiesel in my car now. You probably use waste oil as feedstock and receive no government subsidies. It's the governent subsidies I've a big problem with.

 

[Chasee]

Yelram, you might want to read National Geographic a bit more frequently:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/04/070404-mars-warming.html

I also cannot believe you are actually an AGW denier. By this point I thought that moon landing deniers outnumbered AGW deniers.

But you do have it right about corn kernel ethanol. Big boondoggle. Cellulosic, on the other hand, will make ethanol a much more viable alternative.

Biodiesel is just as viable as ethanol, and even works in tandem with certain methods of creating ethanol. The list of reasons that guy does not want to use BD seems a bit silly, but that's his choice. BD already can be created from a myriad of crops, as well as WVO, aniaml fat/meat industry waste, and algae bioreactors which scavenge C02 from power plants (near future).

I find the general resistance to BD to be very odd when compared to the seeming acceptance of ethanol. Simple engineering tweaks are turned into insurmountable barriers by some people here. Their agenda? Who the heck knows. They certainly are not "looking out for us" out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[Chasee]

For breaking news on why you SHOULD use BD:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/09/study-petrodies.html#more

That's also further reason why VW SHOULD design the upcoming light duty diesels to be BD compatible in higher percentages than B5.

 

[ikendu]

...corn kernel ethanol. Big boondoggle.

I've met plenty of folks that think this; even environmentalists.

Bottom line... ethanol adds 18% less CO2 to the atmosphere than gasoline (it recycles CO2 annually). You get a 30% solar gain for overall energy when you grow corn and make ethanol. Since so little actual oil is used, 1 BTU of oil gets replaced with 13.2 BTUs of ethanol.

By the way... the energy balance of petroleum? You find 1 BTU and by the time you process it and deliver it, you end up with .84 BTUs. Always a losing game. Always using up a dwindling supply. Oddly enough, even though Patzek and Pimental do these detailed analyses of ethanol, they don't bother to apply the same rigor to petroleum. I wonder why?

I know that ethanol is subsidized ...but so is petroleum (and has been for decades). Last year, we saved the import of over $4 billion dollars of imported oil with ethanol. Money that went to farmers and businesses in the Midwest instead of the Middle East. That seems like a good thing to me ...not a boondoggle.

 

[Chasee]

You need to talk to the average Mexican citizen who can no longer afford tortillas. Do they think corn kernel ethanol is a good thing? Can you project further with this initial instance and see how bad the current kernel methanol model is?

http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/index.cfm?fa=viewfeature&id=1416

 

[kcfoxie]

[*]Gelling Temperature: Biodiesel gels at a higher temperature (32 degrees) than standard #2 diesel (-15 degrees). This isn't a problem with biodiesel/petro-diesel blends of 20% or less (B20 - B2) but it makes the use of B100 unworkable in a commercial vehicle.

This isn't a problem when you remove the oxygen element from the fuel. There has been an extensive study at NC State University about making "synthetic jet fuel from plants," basically they remove the oxygen from the Biodiesel Methyl-Ester string, which condenses. It's successfully powered a few airplanes. Chemistry will solve this problem in due time.

[*]Lower BTU Rating: A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is defined as the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water from 60° to 61°F at a constant pressure of one atmosphere. A study done by the University of North Dakota indicated that, while there are significant fluctuations, #2 diesel contains about 140,000 BTUs per gallon while B100 contains about 130,000 BTUs. (B20 contains 138,000 BTUs.)

Not true if you use Ethanol and make an Ethyl-ester. This is far more common West of the Mississippi. I obtained 43.something MPG using Ethanol-base/Virgin Soybean oil biodiesel purchased in Iowa. To compare that with the Methanol base/Waste Veggie Oil B100 I get back home, I get about 41MPG. D2 gets 42 consistently. Not a big loss. There is more kapow in raw ethanol (200 proof, needed for biodiesel reaction) than in D2 or High Octane Gasoline. Again, Chemistry will solve this in due time.

[*]Higher Nitrogen Oxide Emissions: Since biodiesel contains no nitrogen, the increase in NOx emissions is probably due to the higher cetane rating and the high oxygen content of biodiesel. These two qualities are thought to cause the nitrogen contained in the air to be converted into NOx during combustion.

2007 and later Diesels are required to have particulate traps or the engine makers have already found ways to neutralize the N0x because they know the future of diesel fuel is higher percentage Biodiesel. Retrofit particulate traps are entirely possible.

[*]Higher Solvent Properties: Because biodiesel acts as a solvent it's likely, when used in an engine that ran previously on petro-diesel, that any sediment in the fuel system might be washed into the engine's filters and fuel injectors. Rubber gaskets and hoses will also degrade at a higher rate. This means that filters will need to be changed within 1000 miles of changing to a biodiesel blend and the hoses and gaskets will eventually need to be changed to something that doesn't react to biodiesel; like Viton.[/LIST]

This is a flat out lie. I've got a 2006, I have 26,000 miles. I got the car with 200 miles in Feb of 2007 (note today's date is Sept 2007). I ran B20 from 500 miles to about 6,000 miles and switched to B100. I got 18,000 out of the first filter. I put a D2 tank in on a long trip, and the filter clogged. I can run 2 tanks of B100 and 1 tank of D2 and clog a filter, not the other way around. The fuel I purchase is properly dewatered and filtered, and is beyond the ATMS specification. My tank and lines smell like oil, and they're well coated. I've read more reports on newbeetle.org (haven't been on here enough to see) about ULSD eating away at injector pump seals than Biodiesel. I'm going to prove that B100 in a PD engine is safe, because I'll have 50k miles on this car by Feb 2008 and will gladly remove my injectors and take photos.

I understand concern, but I've seen posts of PD TDI owners with over 50k who have not lost a fuel line, pump, injector or any of this hogwash.

The facts are the oil industry doesn't want Diesel to become obsolete as it is a recycled waste stream from their main product: gasoline. Biofuels as a whole can compliment, or totally replace, petroleum products. As soy and hemp plastic research starts to turn into product-based solutions, meaning biodegradable and even consumable (you can eat it) plastics, the petroleum industry is going to be hard pressed to find clients who want their product.

One day we will have vehicles that totally destroy the bad emissions, running on plant-based fuels, with virus-powered batteries and self-charge with ink-injected solar collection panels built right into their roofs.

What stops innovation is fear. What have you to lose? I'm driving a 2006, that is 10 months old from production date stamp and I say screw the VW warranty. Fuel has nothing to do with airbag lights or faulty brakes. To each their own, but eventually you're going to be forced to use B20: http://www.reuters.com/article/environmentNews/idUSSP22374220070416

ConocoPhilips and Tyson are going to sell B20 as D2 starting sometime in 08 or 09, the production of their Chicken Fat Biodiesel to blend has already started this year.

Lastly, we compost harsh chemicals by introducing cultivated bacteria into them to transform them into nonhazzardous chemicals. We're really not far off from usinig E.Coli to make Ford-engine-ready Ethanol from the Glycerol waste stream of Biodiesel production, and we're also not far off from using waste paper pulp, corn stalks and other organic matter into ethanol via microbes.

It has become painfully obvious how far behind America is in Science after reading the Anti-Biodiesel threads. I'm convinced the only reasons we rely on Tree-based paper instead of hemp was the social reform of the 20s, and the reason Ethanol lost to Petroleum was its cold weather properties. Now the petroleum has caused us a lot of problems, and we're reluctant to go back to natural solutions. It is really a shame.

 

[ikendu]

You need to talk to the average Mexican citizen who can no longer afford tortillas. Do they think corn kernel ethanol is a good thing? Can you project further with this initial instance and see how bad the current kernel methanol model is?

http://knowledge.wpcarey.asu.edu/index.cfm?fa=viewfeature&id=1416

Well, I will absolutely agree that we don't want people to have to choose between food and fuel. And... that the future of biofuels must be with sustainable biomass practices. Corn ethanol is only a place to begin, not the end game.

It is a complex issue.

Fundamentally, the argument that Mexican families need inexpensive food has at its basis that farmers should not be allowed to charge more for corn. You notice that the article does not say there is no corn to make tortillas ...only that the price is higher. Farmers have struggled for decades to make it with the depressed price of corn. Now that corn sells for more due to ethanol demand, people protest that poor families can't afford it.

What is your solution to keeping food cheap enough for everyone?

Shall farmers simply eat the cost of higher fertilizer, land, energy and machinery costs? Not to mention that everything they buy is higher too. Should the government artificially limit the price of tortillas?

If you think that corn demand is too high, consider this: it takes 10 pounds of corn to create one pound of beef. 60% of our corn crop goes for animal feed. Should poor Mexican families suffer because people choose to consume beef thus taking 10 times the amount of corn "off the market"? This issue is not simple.

Here is an interesting article on the price of corn produced in Mexico:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JQP/is_374/ai_n8579640/pg_1

The people of corn - Maize is Mexico's lifeblood

Maize is Mexico's lifeblood ...this centuries-old relationship is now threatened by free trade. ...As a result of ...NAFTA, Mexico has been flooded with imported corn from north of the border. ...despite a huge drop in the price farmers received for their corn, consumers often ended up paying more. The price of tortillas--the country's staple food--rose nearly fivefold as the Government jettisoned domestic subsidies and giant agribusiness firms took over the market.

...Maize imports tripled under NAFTA and producer prices fell by half.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So... after Nafta, corn prices in Mexico dropped by half ...and now they have doubled (back up to what it used to cost before NAFTA).

You see in this article, how tortilla prices jumped 500% even though the corn fell by half (right after NAFTA).

I'll just say it again... this is not a simple issue.

 

[Rexking414]

Just a few thoughts on This topic. First, Diesel is not a by product of gasoline, it's actaully the other way around. When oil is pumped of the ground. Is it processed at the factory. The main part of the process on what fuels are made out of it are as follows. The oil is heated up to temperatures. At specific different temperatures is when each fuel is made. The fuel created is not the same that comes out of the pump. There is much more done to the specific fuel made like additives and purifying that is done but regardless, i don't remember the exact numbers but diesel base is made at about 500 something degrees and gasoline base is made at about 800 something degrees if i remember quickly.
Next point is about ethanol. AS stated above, yes farmers are getting a good price for their corn. But this is Cash croppers mainly. i personally do not know of a Farm the has cows, cattle, pigs etc that actually sells their corn. They make for feed. What th eproblem is that Small farmers that are trying to save money by growing they're own corn can't becase they don't have enough land to support they're livestock they have to buy the rest. Now, If cash croppers are getting more money for their corn. The opposite happens to farmers that need to buy it. They have to spend more for it. From what i remember, a large majority of the corn is wasted because the as the corn ferments what happens to the matter? It gets disposed. These high prices farmers are paying for corn, as many of you people like me from wisconsin see, Lots of abandoned barns and silo's deteriorating and falling down because farmers are forced in bankruptcy and forced to stop farming. The People that are making money off this are cash croppers. Not the farmers, granted they're may be a a few farmers out there that are but not any i've talked to. This isn't ethanol purely. This is also about soybeans as well. Cash croppers get paid good for soybeans, but what about the actual farmers with live stock that don't have enough land to plant they own beans?? They have to buy them. once again, too high prices forcing them out of business.

Yes petro diesel exhaust has been proven for many years in high amounts to ruin lungs and kill people. Even the 90's TDI's don't make hardley near enough to be lethal to lungs unless ofcourse you sit in a enclosed place but we all know better than this. all exhaust will at some point kill someone.

As far as biodiesel goes, people that make their own Biodiesel is all fine and dandy for you people. But what about us that use Petro diesel. We pay over 50 cents in taxes per gallon up here. These taxes help keep our roads in half decent shape. So we have to pay all the pain while you home brewers can use the same roads with Biodiesel. Even with SVO or WVO, same thing applies. What if all diesel vehicle owners and Semi's did this? Any idea what the interstates, highways, and roads would look or be like?

As for the problems Biodiesel can cause in cars. You may be running your car all fine and dandy with your biodiesel, but what about when you want a new car. You sell it and give someone your headache. From a diesel mechanic standpoint.

BTW: There is probably erros in t his post i will clean up later but I'm late, I don't have time to clean up now. So i don't need any of our grammer, puncuation experts having a joy day.

 

[Chasee]

As far as biodiesel goes, people that make their own Biodiesel is all fine and dandy for you people. But what about us that use Petro diesel. We pay over 50 cents in taxes per gallon up here. These taxes help keep our roads in half decent shape. So we have to pay all the pain while you home brewers can use the same roads with Biodiesel. Even with SVO or WVO, same thing applies. What if all diesel vehicle owners and Semi's did this? Any idea what the interstates, highways, and roads would look or be like?

The road tax thing again. Well, as I have posted on several other threads here, this is the fed tax code as applies to BD and seemingly SVO/WVO:

The applicable diesel fuel tax rate is 24.4 cents per gallon. This tax is paid by submitting Form 720 Quarterly Federal Excise Tax Return. This also applies to biodiesel fuel which is considered a blended diesel fuel. The person that produces the blended diesel fuel, outside the bulk transfer / terminal system (blender), is liable for the tax which is imposed under IRC section 4081(b) upon sale or removal. Blended diesel fuel is any mixture of diesel fuel, with respect to which tax has been imposed and any other liquid (such as kerosene) which no tax has been imposed. The number of gallons of blended diesel fuel subject to the tax, is the difference between the total number of gallons of blended diesel fuel removed or sold, and the number of gallons of previously taxed diesel fuel used to produce the blended diesel fuel.

An exclusion from tax on the "blended taxable fuel" mixture is provided in Treasury Regulations section 48.4081-1(c)(1)(ii) for minor blending if: during any calendar quarter the removal or sale of the mixture in aggregate by the blender is less than 400 gallons .

Please confirm with your CPA.

 

[JoeBuck]

Well said YELRAM, you summed up the mythical man made global warming issue nicely. Everyone listen to Murphy, he knows biodiesel.

The use of biofuels will never cause people to starve. When demand for these crops goes up, the production of these crops go up. It's economics 101 - supply and demand and don't say we don't have enough land to grow them, because we have plenty of farm land now. I grew up in a farming family and I remember the days of "set aside land". A farmer was paid not to grow any crops because we had a surplus.
Also - google "algea as biofuel" or jatropha (or follow this link). Neither of these are food crops and they DO NOT take up food crop land, but they are very promising sources of oil for biodiesel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jatropha

There are so many economic and political influences in everything that goes on in our world and we as an individual have almost no influence over them. But, the one thing we can control is what you do. I like biodiesel because you can make it for $1.00 a gallon (or less). That's economic control of my own situation. I also like that it's cleaner, doesn't stink, doesn't put profits in the pockets of people I may not like or don't like me, it's better for the engine in my vehicle and it probably originated from a farmer here in the good old USA.

Oh yeah - that think about acting as a solvent and cleaning the crap out of your formally petrodiesel burning engine - thats a good thing. A fuel filter is $25.00, a new engine is many thousands of dollars.

Thanks for the opportunity.

 

[ikendu]

...yes farmers are getting a good price for their corn. ...The opposite happens to farmers that need to buy it.

Rexking414 (can I call you Rex?), I'm sitting here wondering what to say about this. From my earliest days on our dairy farm in Ohio, it seemed like farmers were always focused on the "farmer vs. farmer" aspect of life.

We had to buy hay to supplement our own and some years we had to buy corn to supplement our own. Should our dairy farm have prospered at the expense of some other crop farmer not making a decent living?

The issue isn't that the crop farmer charges you too much for corn or hay, the real issue is that you aren't getting enough for your milk or your animals. This is a tough issue and I don't know the best answer. My parents tried joining the National Farmers Organization (NFO) in a attempt to organize and get a fair price for their produce. It didn't really work. Farmers, are pretty independent, they don't like to organize. Plus, during a "milk holding action" to try to get the price up a little higher, some farmers would cheat and undercut the organizing by selling as much milk as they could.

People in the U.S. spend less now for food than at any time in human history. I'm not sure I like all of our factory farming, but it has produced very, very cheap food. This definitely is not a simple issue either.

 

[McBrew]

Gelling Temperature: Biodiesel gels at a higher temperature (32 degrees) than standard #2 diesel (-15 degrees). This isn't a problem with biodiesel/petro-diesel blends of 20% or less (B20 - B2) but it makes the use of B100 unworkable in a commercial vehicle.

Petroleum diesel gels at cold temperatures, too. Additives are used to lower the gelling temperature. The same thing is done with biodiesel. The fact that the gelling temperatures are different doesn't make biodiesel any less of a viable fuel. Winterize properly, no matter the fuel.

Lower BTU Rating: A BTU (British Thermal Unit) is defined as the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of water from 60° to 61°F at a constant pressure of one atmosphere. A study done by the University of North Dakota indicated that, while there are significant fluctuations, #2 diesel contains about 140,000 BTUs per gallon while B100 contains about 130,000 BTUs. (B20 contains 138,000 BTUs.)

Winterized petroleum diesel fuel also has a lower BTU rating... does this mean that winterized petroleum diesel is not a viable fuel?

Higher Nitrogen Oxide Emissions: Since biodiesel contains no nitrogen, the increase in NOx emissions is probably due to the higher cetane rating and the high oxygen content of biodiesel. These two qualities are thought to cause the nitrogen contained in the air to be converted into NOx during combustion.

Depending on the testing method and the feedstock for the biodiesel, the NOx emissions can be SLIGHTLY higher or SLIGHTLY lower than petroleum diesel. The difference is close to 1%. Compared to the many other compaounds that are radically reduced, this is a drop in the ocean. Nice try, picking out the one thing that is not lowered (well, sometimes it is) and ignoring the rest.

Higher Solvent Properties: Because biodiesel acts as a solvent it's likely, when used in an engine that ran previously on petro-diesel, that any sediment in the fuel system might be washed into the engine's filters and fuel injectors. Rubber gaskets and hoses will also degrade at a higher rate. This means that filters will need to be changed within 1000 miles of changing to a biodiesel blend and the hoses and gaskets will eventually need to be changed to something that doesn't react to biodiesel; like Viton.

Bull. I have switched MANY vehicles over to biodiesel and have not had filter clogging issues. Nor have I had seal problems or leaking hoses. Even on a 300,000 mile Mercedes with rubber hoses. The filter finally clogged about a year after switching that car to B100. It probably would have clogged by then, anyway, as it had not been changed in years. Geez, diesel cars and trucks have only been using biodiesel-safe fuel lines for, what, 12 years now?

Running anything more than B2 is a waste.
"Bio diesel is a fuel additive."

Don't tell my car that! It thinks B100 is a fuel!

I think we should ban beans since we all know they make you fart out methane gas.

Only about 40% of people produce methane in their bowels.

So those of us that make our own B100 must be genuine numbskulls!

Yes, we are.

There is more kapow in raw ethanol (200 proof, needed for biodiesel reaction) than in D2 or High Octane Gasoline.

Maybe this is just worded poorly... but ethanol contains MUCH less energy than gasoling, diesel, or biodiesel. Something close to half the BTUs. But ethanol (or methanol) is not in biodiesel in its free state... it is bound up in ethyl- or methyl-esters. Much like water is made up of hydrogen and oxygen, but they behave differently when bound up in water molecules.

people that make their own Biodiesel is all fine and dandy for you people. But what about us that use Petro diesel. We pay over 50 cents in taxes per gallon up here. These taxes help keep our roads in half decent shape. So we have to pay all the pain while you home brewers can use the same roads with Biodiesel.

Yes, just like how cigarette smokers must pay all that tobacco tax which finds anti-smoking campaigns, while those of us who don't smoke are not contributing to that (somewhat) worthwhile cause. Taking my tongue out of my cheek, I will say that they could make paying the taxes easier... then more people would pay them. It is not actually possible to pay the state fuel taxes without being a fuel distributor, which requires tens of thousands of dollars to be bonded, tens of thousands of gallons of storage tanks, properly zoned land, and permits up the whazoo. Essentially, it is not possible to pay these taxes on homebrewed biodiesel in most states. Take it up with your state government if you are not happy about it.

 

[weedeater]

I find the general resistance to BD to be very odd when compared to the seeming acceptance of ethanol.

Stock holders in ADM prefer the ethanol. More gas vehicles that diesels in their minds, hence more money to be made.

 

[Lug_Nut]

My biodiesel road use taxes are paid at the public access B100 pump, just as petrodiesel purchaser's taxes are at the ajoining D2 pump.
I have moral issues with homebrewers and WVO users that do not support the infrastructure. I don't preach to them against their tax avoidance, but I don't want them to believe I condone their tax evasion action either.
I have aquaintances that brew their own bio, and I willingly accept their offers to sample their work, but it goes in my lawn tractor. That's not because I don't trust their quality, but because of my opinion on this tax subject.