Why Americans should fall in love with the diesel

cp

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Meanwhile, the EPA has put quite a tough set of restrictions on the automakers. AND, OUR PRESIDENT, (Congress and Senate also) IS EITHER UNWILLING OR TO STUPID TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
I voted for him twice, but agree completely with you.
 

rotarykid

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The truth hurts

debensey said:
So, why didn't people buy them? Was Reagan standing at the dealerships with a shotgun?

People turned away from diesels because gas was cheap. Temporarily.

It was the same reason that they turned away from small, efficient gasoline models. Because of $10/ barrel oil and $.95/ gallon gas. That is the simple explanation.

But, if you prefer to believe is some enormous conspiracy, nothing but reason will stop you.
I must have hit a nerve :) :) . Lack leadership during the 80s in thenWhite House to push Americans to purchase high mpg diesel alternatives back in the 80s . That the worthless leader in the White House in the 80s did push the Saudies to have less than $10 a barrel in the mid 80s did lead the US into the mess we find ourselves . The lowest fleet mpgs since the early 70s . I don't see how you can see what they did in anyother way . Sorry if the facts hurt , but this is what happened .



And there is only one excuse for diesel costing more than gas , greed !!! It cost about 1/2 as much to produce diesel as compared to producing gasoline . And twice as much diesel can produced out of the same amount of crude as compared to gasoline being made out of crude . So please tell me how this isn't political ???:D
 

rotarykid

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Diesel wide spred use in autos spells billioins lost by the oil companies

If diesels do take their place at the head of the US auto industry of cars being sold in the US the oil commpany do stand to loose billions in reduced oil use .

You do the math for every SUV or pick up truck getting 10 mpg suddenly replaced by a 45 to 50 mpg computor controlled diesel powered vehicles .

You do you the math and big oil has they see $$$$ lost . I don't thank any more explanation is required on why diesels are being regulated out of existance in the US .
 

DrStink

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tdisedanman said:
However, Large SUVs have tax incentives as do hybrids which will pollute with wasted batteries. So, you tell me who is getting it up the @ss?
Sigh. Do we need to have the hybrid-battery-recycling discussion *every* *single* friggin' week?
 

DrStink

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rotarykid said:
You do the math for every SUV or pick up truck getting 10 mpg suddenly replaced by a 45 to 50 mpg computor controlled diesel powered vehicles .

You do you the math and big oil has they see $$$$ lost . I don't thank any more explanation is required on why diesels are being regulated out of existance in the US .
If it were only that simple.

Frankly, I think the story is way more complicated.

Consumers are to blame for not continuing to buy diesels when gas was cheap.

Anti-tax/anti-government ideologues are to blame for resisting fuel taxes that would have encouraged consumers to buy diesels.

American "car" companies are to blame for spending billions on advertising to shift consumers from low profit cars to high profit SUVs.

Protectionist tariffs - like the chicken tariff - and the unions that supported them, are to blame for giving the American automakers a protected niche from Japanese competition that encouraged the shift toward SUVs.

Congress - and the prounion left and the antigovernment right lobbies that put them in office, are to blame for not insisting CAFE continue to increase after 1988. Congress is also to blame for not fixing the light truck loopholes in CAFE.

In short, there is plenty of blame to go around.

Now the question becomes whether certain individuals in the executive branch can put aside their natural impulses as oil men and actually lead this country toward the energy independence we've been promised by democratic and republican presidents since Nixon.

Personally, my hope lays with a certain northeastern governor whose name ends in a vowel. Problem is the reactionary ideologues in his own party will label him a RINO and the extremists to the left will never trust the green credentials of a republican governor. So frankly, the 80% of us in the middle will be screwed once again.

Clean air, clean water, and energy independence should not be partisan issues - they are American issues that affect every single one of us.
 

scrubber

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rotarykid said:
If diesels do take their place at the head of the US auto industry of cars being sold in the US the oil commpany do stand to loose billions in reduced oil use .

You do the math for every SUV or pick up truck getting 10 mpg suddenly replaced by a 45 to 50 mpg computor controlled diesel powered vehicles .

You do you the math and big oil has they see $$$$ lost . I don't thank any more explanation is required on why diesels are being regulated out of existance in the US .
Then why are hybrids being pushed down our throats?
 

rotarykid

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Hybrid sales don't even make a dent in energy consumption mo threat to oil profit non

scrubber said:
Then why are hybrids being pushed down our throats?
Because the posted mpgs on Hybrids aren't close to what is actually achieved in a hybrid . Also the extra cost of a hybrid means they will never sell enough of them to threaten oil companies profit margins . At most may 1 to 2 % of total auto sales in the US .

In short they are no threat to reduce high energy use . If diesel sales were to reach 40 % of market shares oil consumption would be cut by as much as 3/4 of what is currently used . That would cost the oil companies billions of dollars .
 

hank miller

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MrMopar said:
Where do you get the half-baked idea that bosses hand out raises as soon as the cost of consumer goods rises? I work in a machine shop for $8 per hour. A while ago I asked my shop foreman for a raise because nearly everything had gotten more expensive in the past two years, like you said in your post. He looked at me and pointed to Javier (one of my co-workers) and said "If you don't want the job, Javier probably has about 10 brothers who can come right in and do it for less pay."

And he's right - Javier himself is an illegal who gets paid cash because the social security number he bought a few months ago belongs to a deadbeat dad, so his first paycheck had child support missing for a kid that wasn't even his. We make the same amount of money, but Javier takes home 20% more by virtue of not being taxed.

Point being: Everyone looks out for their own pocketbook, no one who is your supervisor is there to care about you.
In the short run they do not give raises. In the long run they do. There is no choice - I look after myself, so when I'm not making enough money I look elsewhere.

I assume you called INS that very day? I too look after myself, and when someone else is getting more money than me because he is illegal, I will demand changes.
 

cptmox

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rotarykid said:
If diesels do take their place at the head of the US auto industry of cars being sold in the US the oil commpany do stand to loose billions in reduced oil use .

You do the math for every SUV or pick up truck getting 10 mpg suddenly replaced by a 45 to 50 mpg computor controlled diesel powered vehicles .

You do you the math and big oil has they see $$$$ lost . I don't thank any more explanation is required on why diesels are being regulated out of existance in the US .
Don't tell me to do the math, I want to see your figures. I want to know that you are putting rational thought into what you are saying. I want you to put real economic theories into use. Don't just jump on board with random conspiracy theories without good information.

What makes you feel this way? What are your sources? Where do you get your numbers? Do you have any interesting links, any tangible evidence to bring to the discussion? Or are you just rambling on and on with misinformation that is generated in your own head, spurred on by an unwavering hatred of all things Republican?

Bring some good information to the discussion, help us to understand your point of view.

I will help you get started on your research:

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_economy/the-diesel-dilemma.html

This article talks in a nice refreshingly non-partisan way about the ins and outs of diesel and gas engines, but makes points that MOST of us already understand. The beauty of this page lies in the links on the right side; there looks to be some links to many of the topics you have brought up, and they very well may support some of your statements.
 

MrMopar

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hank miller said:
In the short run they do not give raises. In the long run they do. There is no choice - I look after myself, so when I'm not making enough money I look elsewhere.

I assume you called INS that very day? I too look after myself, and when someone else is getting more money than me because he is illegal, I will demand changes.
Oh, that's a brilliant plan - a real frickin' swiss watch . . .

Illinois is an "employment at will" state. My employer can fire me for ANY reason (with exceptions for protected status such as race, sex, etc.) or he doesn't have to give any reason at all. Do I want to go about calling INS to report this guy, or do I want to keep my job for a while longer?

I'll keep the job that meagerly pays my rent and puts food on the table, simply because there isn't anything else out there. Plus, this previous employer would just blacklist me when it comes time for referrals. It's been done to me before when I tried to take the moral high ground, and that's why I work for $8 an hour.
 

tdireader

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We have hybrids due to CARB emissions standards and NOT for decent fuel economy. The mpg rating is a side efect of the whole ATPZEV thing not the aim.

Diesels are popular due to driving characteristics and fuel economy. They need emmissions technology added on after the fact.

Hybrids are popular now for their fuel economy. And, to a lesser extent so are diesels.

Consumer demand focuses more on fuel economy and less on emissions but our government is hooked on emmisions and doesn't car much about fuel efficiency.

That's why diesel is being slowly killed as an option and hybrids are being pushed.

I think the oil companies exploit the situation more than anything else.

Why do what others will do for you?

Sometimes conspiracies are too much work.
 

rotarykid

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cptmox said:
Don't tell me to do the math, I want to see your figures. I want to know that you are putting rational thought into what you are saying. I want you to put real economic theories into use. Don't just jump on board with random conspiracy theories without good information.

What makes you feel this way? What are your sources? Where do you get your numbers? Do you have any interesting links, any tangible evidence to bring to the discussion? Or are you just rambling on and on with misinformation that is generated in your own head, spurred on by an unwavering hatred of all things Republican?

Bring some good information to the discussion, help us to understand your point of view.

I will help you get started on your research:

http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_economy/the-diesel-dilemma.html

This article talks in a nice refreshingly non-partisan way about the ins and outs of diesel and gas engines, but makes points that MOST of us already understand. The beauty of this page lies in the links on the right side; there looks to be some links to many of the topics you have brought up, and they very well may support some of your statements.
Just because you are ignoring the facts doesn't mean that the fact aren't out there . Replace a 10 mpg vehicle 50 mpg vehicle equals a car that goes 5 times further on the same gal of fuel . I/5 the fuel used per new diesel sold doese equal much money lost for the oil companies .

It is also a fact that 2 times the diesel can be made out of the same amount of crude that is currently used to make half as much gasoline . And the fact that greed is the only reason diesel cost much more than gasoline .

My facts don't need any extra info .
 

Dave_D

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MrMopar said:
Oh, that's a brilliant plan - a real frickin' swiss watch . . .

Illinois is an "employment at will" state. My employer can fire me for ANY reason (with exceptions for protected status such as race, sex, etc.) or he doesn't have to give any reason at all. Do I want to go about calling INS to report this guy, or do I want to keep my job for a while longer?

I'll keep the job that meagerly pays my rent and puts food on the table, simply because there isn't anything else out there. Plus, this previous employer would just blacklist me when it comes time for referrals. It's been done to me before when I tried to take the moral high ground, and that's why I work for $8 an hour.
I would expect you can tip off the INS anonymously in the same way you can tip off the police about drug dealers. It might not come to anything as they seem quite lax in enforcement in most areas in any case. You might do better tipping off the IRS anonymously, although that might lead them to check out everyone working for that company.
 

Carla

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I just paided 2.59 a gal for diesel at mobil ...Their price for super was 2.59
My other jetta VR6 required super and gets maybe 23 mpg... So for me it's
now a wash..
 

gbg_tdi

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$2.49 a gallon

There's an independent station selling diesel for $2.49 a gallon near where I live. He's very busy. It's interesting to see all the TDIs do business there...
 

cptmox

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Old Navy said:
Hahahahahahahaha Love reading this thread. :D

I'm supprised someone hasn't brought up the "fake lunar landings". :eek:
It is true that you cannot see any stars in the background of the pictures taken on the moon. :)

That fact must mean that somehow George Bush is behind a conspiracy to trick the world into believing we went to the moon, present some old volcanic rocks as "moon" rocks, and funnel all the funding for the space program into profits for his oil cronies. He was only in his early 20s back then, but I don't care.
 

cptmox

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rotarykid said:
Just because you are ignoring the facts doesn't mean that the fact aren't out there . Replace a 10 mpg vehicle 50 mpg vehicle equals a car that goes 5 times further on the same gal of fuel .

And the fact that greed is the only reason diesel cost much more than gasoline .

My facts don't need any extra info .
What 10mpg vehicle is going to suddenly turn into a 50mpg vehicle? I'm assuming you mean a like sized vehicle, for example a Ford Excursion (which BTW has a diesel option that can get you 18mpg). There is currently no way to suddenly change such a vehicle into a 50mpg vehicle with any sort of cost effectiveness. Nobody could afford it even if Detroit could produce it.

OR - Are you implying that folks should switch from their Excursions into TDIs? I wish. If we could get the public to do that, it would be a great wonderful thing. Will that happen? No way. As long as gas is < $6/gallon, we will be stuck with SUVs. Even old Ron Reagan couldn't pry mom out of her suburban assault vehicle.

Greed is the only thing that drives diesel prices? Greed will always be apart of everything. A very select few people will work for the lowest salary they can get by with. Companies that keep their prices below the price set by a free market economy don't stay in business. Don't confuse charging the max. price that a free market allows with greed.

Why does Nike charge $140 for a pair of Air Jordans? Because they can.
Why does Jim Carrey demand $40 million per movie? Because he can. $10 a ticket at the movies really burns me up, BUT... I still go.
Superbowl tickets are going for $3500 ea. because somebody is buying them.

Gas is a little different, because our society is so dependant on it, but most of us aren't required to drive gas guzzlers. We choose to.

Interesting reading on this point - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=121038&highlight=why+does+diesel+cost+so+much

*both sides of this argument are represented on this thread
 

TheLongshot

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gbg_tdi said:
There's an independent station selling diesel for $2.49 a gallon near where I live. He's very busy. It's interesting to see all the TDIs do business there...
And near my workplace, there is a place selling diesel at $2.45 a gallon. Granted, that is an exception, since typically in the area it is about $2.67-$2.79 right now.

Jason
 

BeetleGo

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American Should Fall In Love With The Diesel

Sheesh, would the conspiracy theorists please take a powder? This topic is about where/how/why/if Amcericans 'should' fall in love with diesels.

Take your Rydalin (sp?) and focus!

Once ULSD becomes widely available in this market it will fnially become possible for every major car company to begin offering their existing PRODUCTION turbo-powered passenger cars and light trucks here in the good ole U.S. of A. These are already being sold in Europe and while there are still some additional emissions refinements being tweaked to meet EPA regs I believe there is a very good probability that everyone will figure this out (Some like DaimlerChrysler and VW/Audi group already have), which SHOULD mean that Americans will soon have a reason to start including them on their shopping lists.

As people trade in their current, generally newer rides in the next 3-5 years I fully expect that they will not only be literally exhausted from fueling their current gluttonous beasts, but they will also be enticed by these high-torque, robust, well-equipped, sophisticated, safe, and stylish DIESEL alternatives to what they've always bought before. By then, diesels will no longer smell, make untoward noises, or indeed produce any significant difference in behavior other than greatly enhanced performance, range, and the added bragging rights for being able to run on domestically grown fuel. Unless I'm mistaken, we'll still be in Iraq <or anywhere else where we're trying to preserver access to oil> at the end of the decade and fuel will be MUCH more expensive as global demand for crude continues to escallate.

The reasons that were given at the beginning of this thread to explain why this will 'never' happen ignores the fact that the US market in the 70's used to be perceived as a place where you could neeeeeever sell a 'dangerous' small car - you know, one of them foreign jobs! The only sane choice after all was to buy a two-ton 'sensible' example of Detroit Iron. After all, buying foreign was un patriotic! Well, if that be the case, being presented with the opportunity to burn biofuels (victory fuel?) should have some influence on people's decisions in the coming years as well.

The market today is and has been well represented by Japanese and European products. They now dominate the very lucrative market segments that no one ever in a million years (well, 30) thought could be taken away from Detroit, like sayyyy the market segment that used to be owned by Cadillac and Lincoln. And when was the last time the absolute typical, mainstream family car in America WASN'T an Accord or a Camry? Of course, the Koreans will neeeever make any headway in this country. Heresy!! It'll never happen!!

Well, it did. Why WOULDN'T a major market for diesel engines be next??

My $.02,

~BeetleGo
 
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Cincy_Mike

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I believe the general public will have a low opinion on how long efficient cars take to warm up in the winter.
 

Old Navy

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Cincy_Mike said:
I believe the general public will have a low opinion on how long efficient cars take to warm up in the winter.
My Jeep Liberty CRD has a new gizmo called a viscous heater that gets the CRD warmed up just as fast as my gasser Magnum. Do a search on the internet as someone here likes to say. Our CRD strarts and runs quiter at 20*F then my '90 Nissan PU truck, that thing always sounded like it was falling apart when it was cold.
 
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bhtooefr

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I believe people will like the 1 kW electric heater that the A5 Jetta has, to make it so that it doesn't matter that diesels are so efficient ;)
 

hank miller

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cptmox said:
What 10mpg vehicle is going to suddenly turn into a 50mpg vehicle? I'm assuming you mean a like sized vehicle, for example a Ford Excursion (which BTW has a diesel option that can get you 18mpg). There is currently no way to suddenly change such a vehicle into a 50mpg vehicle with any sort of cost effectiveness. Nobody could afford it even if Detroit could produce it.
A 1960s Jaguar XJS could easily go from < 10 mpg to > 50 mpg by trading that gas drinking V12 for a modern diesel. From what I understand about those cars, owners will like the idea of going a full tank between breakdowns more than the greater range per tank that the diesel will get.
cptmox said:
Greed is the only thing that drives diesel prices? Greed will always be apart of everything. A very select few people will work for the lowest salary they can get by with. Companies that keep their prices below the price set by a free market economy don't stay in business. Don't confuse charging the max. price that a free market allows with greed.
Why does Nike charge $140 for a pair of Air Jordans? Because they can.
Why does Jim Carrey demand $40 million per movie? Because he can. $10 a ticket at the movies really burns me up, BUT... I still go.
Superbowl tickets are going for $3500 ea. because somebody is buying them.
Gas is a little different, because our society is so dependant on it, but most of us aren't required to drive gas guzzlers. We choose to.
Your ecconomic lession is a little short. Nike charges $140 for shoes because that is the maximum profit point. They could charge more, but already people are not buying. They could charge less (and in fact they have cheaper models that cost just as much to make- but they are not Air Jordans), but they have decided that the greater amount of shoes they would sell is not worth it.
If all gas stations (or oil companies) go together and decided that fuel was going to be $160/gallon, there are people who would still buy it. But I know I'm not the only one who upon seeing those prices would not go to work. So despite the much greater prices they would make less money. Gas is somewhat inelastic, in that people need it enough that they will sacrafice other spending first if gas goes up, but everything has a limit.
Gas is also compititive. I look for the best price on gas (though not at the expensive of quality), so a station that gets greedy will be undercut by the one next door. (Or across town) Sure the station next door is making less per gallon, but he is selling more, so long as there is a profit he can it up in lower prices - but only to a point. So each station wants to find the price that allows them to sell the most profit. Some stations go for volume, while others go for profit per gallon. The greedy station that charges $10.00/gallon will not last.
There is also the law. If your local gas stations are colluding on price the FBI will shut them down. (It is legal to drive around and see what the others are charging, but if they call each other to move the price at the same time that is illegal)
Supply and demand applies. As the price goes up demand goes down. Right now demand is at all time highs, while supply is tight. Thus we have high prices.
 

tdireader

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In the last week I saw 4 new A5 tdis, 5 A4 tdis, 2 Liberty CRDs, 4 MB 300ds (3 in a single day!!!), and a large number(10+) of powerstroke/cummins trucks.

This doesn't count the two within a block from my home.

I think diesel will catch on if the supply is there at a critical point. If enough people buy them during a demand spike like after Katrina, they become an accepted commodity. However, limited supplies will keep (or slow) this from happenning.

EPA requirements are another story. If supply is zero, noone gets a diesel.
 

cptmox

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tdireader said:
In the last week I saw 4 new A5 tdis, 5 A4 tdis, 2 Liberty CRDs, 4 MB 300ds (3 in a single day!!!), and a large number(10+) of powerstroke/cummins trucks.

This doesn't count the two within a block from my home.

I think diesel will catch on if the supply is there at a critical point. If enough people buy them during a demand spike like after Katrina, they become an accepted commodity. However, limited supplies will keep (or slow) this from happenning.

EPA requirements are another story. If supply is zero, noone gets a diesel.
Diesel pickups are hugely popular down in Texas, and are easily the most popular engine choice among the >1/2-ton crowd. They don't have to worry too much about cold morning starts, they cover great highway distances, and there is also the horse trailer folks (my father-in-law included).

With the knowledge of refined diesel engines already present, diesel cars will be more easily accepted.

Last year, while I was in Iraq, I lent my car to my wife's kid sister to drive while I was away. I know, I know, call me crazy, but she took good care of it. She has a 30 mile one way trip just to get to high school, and needed a fuel efficient car. Out in west Texas things are pretty spread out, and when somebody out there tells you they live out in the country, they mean it. Anyway, she said all the boys at school thought she had the coolest car in the world. On top of the fact that she was one of the very few high schoolers, male or female, who could operate a 5-speed.

Kids are supposed to think the GTI, or new Mustang are cool, not a diesel-powered four door sedan.

There is hope.
 
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