Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
Well you have the problem that if people won't buy EVs at today's prices, old school auto manufacturers won't produce any more than it takes to meet CARBs requirements for zero emissions vehicles. I paid $45,000.00 app for my VW ID4, a cheaper version was available for $40,000.00. Both are eligible for a $7,500.00 tax credit. It costs me about 3.1 cents per mile if I charge it at home. For the next 3 years I can charge at an Electrify American station for free, It's just not convenient for local travel. I did pay about $1,500.00 to instal a dedicated 240V charger at the house. The charger is eligible for a 30% tax credit. I can't tell you what the maintenance costs are going to be yet though I predict that they will be a fraction of the costs for my TDI. VW has promised a $35,000.00 version once they are in production in Tennessee (approximately one year from now). Obviously I didn't go to Tesla but I respect them for pushing electric cars in both favorable and unfavorable political climates.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I don't think I could bring myself to spend $60K+ on a vehicle. The most I've ever spent was on an Audi A4, and I think that was $27K. And it was a company car (my company, so I still kind of paid for it). My '15 GSW was new leftover stock and cost me $16,800 after discounts and rebates. Even if fuel and maintenance cost more than an EV like the ID.4, the EV's initial cost will make it hard to catch the GSW on TCO.
 

DPM

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 16, 2001
Location
Newtownards, N. Ireland
TDI
2019 Rav4 AWD Hybrid, Citroen C4 BlueHDI
So I went hybrid almost a year ago now. I've aimed to improve the mpgs with each car purchase, and the last car (Forester Diesel CVT) was better than the manual one before it, and pretty impressive for a sizeable AWD SUV.
The Subaru would match the Govt economy figures, and excelled driving gently on the motorway. Sadly the new E-boxer is a sluggish petrol drinker and has no space for a spare wheel. So no more Forester for me!

Fast forward to the Rav4. As it's an AWD one it's fast, the fastest car I've ever owned. It's roomy, handles pretty well, and has a spare wheel. All good.
But the economy is most impressive. It's ridiculous round town, but still trumps the Subaru on calculated whole tanks. Plus petrol is generally 5% cheaper here...

For my purposes a PHEV would be the ultimate in flexibility- esp with solar on the roof of the new house- but getting into a Rav or Across is stoopid money that you'd never see returned. I'm sure the shape of the market will be very different the next time I'm shopping tho.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
LMAO @ a Forester being a "sizeable SUV". Ah, Europe.... it is all relative I guess. I am guessing they don't sell Suburbans and Expeditions there, LOL.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
If I can get a standard range Model 3 with LFP battery for $30k after a $10k incentive anytime soon, I'll do it.

Here's a chart of global plug-in vehicle sales in July. VW is really picking up the pace with the ID4. I was a little surprised to see a Jeep Wrangler so high up on the list. Can't wait to see one of the PHEV Jeeps driving around in stealth mode.

 

Daemon64

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2019
Location
Tyngsborough, Massachusetts
TDI
2022 Polestar 2 BEV - Current, 2021 Q5 55e PHEV - Retired, 2015 Q5 3.0 TDI - Retired, 2013 Golf TDI - Retired
If I can get a standard range Model 3 with LFP battery for $30k after a $10k incentive anytime soon, I'll do it.

Here's a chart of global plug-in vehicle sales in July. VW is really picking up the pace with the ID4. I was a little surprised to see a Jeep Wrangler so high up on the list. Can't wait to see one of the PHEV Jeeps driving around in stealth mode.

I saw one of those jeeps last week. I was pulling into a parking garage to park, and was like what the heck is a jeep ICING the chargers, and then i was like... wait... what?! No they aren't they're charging... OK!
 
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wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
If I can get a standard range Model 3 with LFP battery for $30k after a $10k incentive anytime soon, I'll do it....
Don't LFP batteries have lower energy densities than NMC and NCA battery chemistries? According to a report from the European Environmental Agency, LFP batteries max out at 120 wh/kg, although that was a 2018 report.

Have battery manufacturers been able to achieve higher LFP energy densities since then?
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Don't LFP batteries have lower energy densities than NMC and NCA battery chemistries? According to a report from the European Environmental Agency, LFP batteries max out at 120 wh/kg, although that was a 2018 report.

Have battery manufacturers been able to achieve higher LFP energy densities since then?

Yes, the LFP batteries are less energy dense than the Nickel chemistries, but CATL and other battery makers have been doing a lot of tweaking and squeezing out more from LFP. Upwards of 160 Wh/kg now. One big improvement is to the form factor itself. Going directly from cells to pack without modules. LFP can be charged to 100% state of charge regularly without concern. And they generally have very high c rates- so they charge quickly. But one of the biggest advantages, imo, is the long cycle life of the iron chemistry batteries.

 
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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
It seems likely that Tesla will be receiving over $1 billion from the German govt. to build it's battery factory supplying Giga Berlin. A wise strategic move to keep China from dominating European battery supply, imo.

 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)

Very interesting read in my view. Some excerpts below that stand out to me:

"The company presented documents from the previous owner confirming the car had been in an accident. However, Tesla tried to prove the damage was not structural. If it were, the only possible repair would be to replace the entire frame. On top of that, Tesla said that it did not know anything about the fix. The company thought that this would dismiss the fraud accusation, but it didn’t. According to Tesla, cutting and welding new parts to the car made it safer than the original vehicle.

The strategy did not pay off for Tesla. On December 4, 2020, the company was convicted in the first instance. Beijing courts said Tesla had the objective responsibility to know the true conditions of the car. Presenting it as spotless constituted fraud, regardless of intention or not. With the decision, Tesla would have to give Chao the RMB379,700 ($58,812 at the current exchange rate) plus RMB1,139,100 ($176,436) – the penalty for fraud is paying three times what you earned as a compensation – but it still had the option to appeal.


The company did that on December 6, 2020. According to Chao, Tesla brought two experts to the court, and neither of them inspected the vehicle: they only checked the pictures Tesla provided. Both missed the same letter on the vehicle’s license plate in their reports, which Chao found suspicious. The final ruling came out on September 16, 20201, and still gave Chao reason. He celebrated his victory on Weibo.

This is not the first time Tesla has been blamed for trying to deceive customers when selling used cars. In the U.S. and Norway, it has been accused of lemon laundering. The company used to name multiple warranty repairs as goodwill. That strategy would help it cheat on financial results and avoid the application of lemon laws in many states.

In financial terms, framing warranty repairs as goodwill would allow Tesla to include them as “Operating Expenses.” If they were considered warranty repairs, they would have to be listed as “Cost of Revenue,” which affects net income and gross profit calculations.

Regarding lemon laws, they require automakers to repurchase cars after a certain number of warranty repairs that do not work. If they are considered goodwill, Tesla can argue that it only performed them to please the customer, not because they were necessary. Apart from that, saying warranty repairs were goodwill exempts Tesla from reporting them to NHTSA if there are too many fixes for the same issue.


The last benefit of not classifying a car as a lemon is that you can resell it without informing the next customer about its issues because it has no lemon title. At least three Norwegian customers were affected by that Tesla strategy: Ola Spakmo, Jens Petter Lund Sommerlade, and Marius Andrè Langø. Add Han Chao to that list as a foreign customer that managed to enforce his consumer rights in a way Tesla will never forget."
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Amateurs. Nobody can pull off massive consumer fraud like VW. Seriously though, only Tesla would draw so much negative attention from a single car repair.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
It is a matter of being caught or not. Other automakers, including Tesla, do their dirty tricks too. How 'massive' I do not know.
 

kjclow

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Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-58578061.amp seems to be a few companies doing similar services
I like the idea of owning an electric conversion classic but also agree that some cars are not made for retrofitting. A Detriot muscle car will not give the same driving experience with an electric motor. If you can't feel that V8 rumble, it's just not the same.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Tesla is just overhyped now, I enjoyed the idea of their cars changing the industry back when they started but now listening to their followers is just irritating.
If you think Tesla is overhyped now, just wait 6 months. Once Berlin and Austin are churning out vehicles by the thousands, the real fun will begin. Diess didn't call his emergency meeting to tell upper management to keep up the good work.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I watched a review of the new Mazda EV last night.
What a joke.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
That Mazda is a joke. 100 miles of range is pretty pathetic for a new BEV today. Bound to be a flop.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
You mean unlike their diesel offers in the US?
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
The compnay my sil works for just transferred someone from the Atlanta area to eastern North Carolina. They had to request a trailer to tow their electric car behind the moving truck. It has a limit of about 80 miles. They're also asking the company to put in a charger at their retail store so they can charge at work.
 

jmodge

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
I like the idea of owning an electric conversion classic but also agree that some cars are not made for retrofitting. A Detriot muscle car will not give the same driving experience with an electric motor. If you can't feel that V8 rumble, it's just not the same.
Yes, it sounds like more a "fun" project that would sell to the few with excess money who enjoy oddball vehicles than something on the practical side.
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
SOLD 2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
(snipped)... A Detriot muscle car will not give the same driving experience with an electric motor. If you can't feel that V8 rumble, it's just not the same.

I agree. It would be about 1000x cooler.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
I have no problem with a quiet car or motorcycle, especially as I listen to the drag race about half a mile away! It's more the feeling of flexing that Detroit muscle.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
It's somewhat comical when you see and hear just how hard the ICE vehicles are working while the electric vehicle just pulls away from the belching racket effortlessly.
 

jmodge

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
History will repeat itself, electric is a Passing fad. The only true renewable resource is 💩
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Blue jeans may be a passing fad, too. Just very slow to pass. Buckle up for an interesting decade- EVs, AI, quantum computing, space exploration, robotics, and the renewable energy revolution are going to alter the trajectory of humanity immensely.
 

jmodge

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Location
Greenville, MI
TDI
2001 alh Jetta, RC2 w/.205's 5speed daily summer commuter and 2000 alh Jetta 5spd swap, 2" lift, hitch, stage 3 TDtuning w/.216's winter cruiser, 1996 Tacoma ALh
Blue jeans may be a passing fad, too. Just very slow to pass. Buckle up for an interesting decade- EVs, AI, quantum computing, space exploration, robotics, and the renewable energy revolution are going to alter the trajectory of humanity immensely.
Who’s Al?
 
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