Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

Rob Mayercik

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The problem with the plug in hybrids is that most people who buy them rarely plug them in. Most of those who do plug in regularly soon discover they'd rather just have the much greater battery range of a full BEV and give up the complexities, noise, pollution, and maintenance of the hybrid system.
How is that the fault of the vehicle? Unless I'm reading your post wrong, you're saying the equivalent of the following:

The problem with screwdrivers is that most people who buy them rarely use them to pound in nails. Most of them who do pound nails regularly soon discover they'd rather just have a hammer and give up the frustration, inefficiency, and constant replacement of broken plastic screwdrivers from beating them against nails.

There's no logic in picking the wrong tool for a job and then blaming the tool.
 

turbobrick240

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How is that the fault of the vehicle? Unless I'm reading your post wrong, you're saying the equivalent of the following:

The problem with screwdrivers is that most people who buy them rarely use them to pound in nails. Most of them who do pound nails regularly soon discover they'd rather just have a hammer and give up the frustration, inefficiency, and constant replacement of broken plastic screwdrivers from beating them against nails.

There's no logic in picking the wrong tool for a job and then blaming the tool.
That's a pretty silly analogy. The fact remains that most PHEVs are not being used in an efficient manner. Blame whomever you like. BEVs are a better solution. Especially when you have access to a decent charging network.

On the other hand places like Japan and Europe will embrace EVs much faster than in North America due to the fact that they do not mind smaller cars, they have plenty of wagons to make them EVs and even have real mini vans such as the Mazda 5 and the VW Touran.
Surprisingly, EV adoption has been quite weak in Japan. Probably because they've been stupidly pursuing hydrogen vehicles rather than battery electrics. China, and now Europe are another story.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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How is that the fault of the vehicle? Unless I'm reading your post wrong, you're saying the equivalent of the following:

The problem with screwdrivers is that most people who buy them rarely use them to pound in nails. Most of them who do pound nails regularly soon discover they'd rather just have a hammer and give up the frustration, inefficiency, and constant replacement of broken plastic screwdrivers from beating them against nails.

There's no logic in picking the wrong tool for a job and then blaming the tool.
Actually I think turbobrick's point is a good one, but I wouldn't reach the same conclusion as he did. I'd venture that people should have gone for the simplicity of an ICE car if they're not taking advantage of the plug-in feature. Simpler and cheaper than a hybrid, and typically someone who's looking at a hybrid (plug in or otherwise) does so in part because they don't want the purchase expense or the limitations of an EV.

People buy the wrong car for their needs all the time. That's why we see 115 lb moms and two 60 lb kids riding around in 6,000 lb SUVs getting 10 MPG in stop and go suburban driving.
 

Poor King

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All the time like a fashion statement. Recalling the time when gas prices went up to $4 a gallon and there was not an SUV in sight; people got by when they had to.
 

Poor King

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You'll buy one when your neighbour gets one. Good thing I live in an apartment 😆
 

Rob Mayercik

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That's a pretty silly analogy. The fact remains that most PHEVs are not being used in an efficient manner. Blame whomever you like. BEVs are a better solution. Especially when you have access to a decent charging network.
I think you missed my point - the fact that most PHEVs are not being used "in an efficient manner" is NOT the fault of the vehicles, it's the fault of the owner buying the wrong tool for the job. Your statement implies that it is the fault of the PHEV that it's not being used efficiently, and that's what I objected to, because blaming an inanimate object for the poor choices of its owner/user is silly.

Overall, I tend more toward IBW's conclusion and agree that many PHEV purchases likely are due to the buyer being uncertain whether a pure EV would do everything they would need a vehicle to do.
 

turbobrick240

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I think you're probably taking an overly literal interpretation of what I said because you don't like the message. Understandable. Cutting our umbilical cord to fossil fuels isn't easy- the internal combustion engine has become culturally engrained in our society. Of course I'm not blaming an inanimate object. If someone were to say to say "the problem with cigarettes is that they kill people" I bet you'd understand the message being conveyed.

In my opinion, the best way to encourage efficient use of PHEVs is to design them with more battery range, less powerful ICE powerplants, and more powerful electric motors. Generally to make the electric mode more appealing.

 

IndigoBlueWagon

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That article makes me wonder if one reason people buy plug-in hybrids is because they can feel righteous and use them in EV mode when they feel like it, but if they forget or don't bother to plug them in there's not much of a penalty. One thing I think about is whether or not I'd forget to plug in an EV every evening. Last night I forgot to put the garage door down when I got home: my phone was ringing and after the call I didn't get back out to the garage. I could see doing the same thing and not plugging in an EV. Problem is there are significant consequences.
 

gulfcoastguy

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Or like my niece, her level 1 charger disappeared from her Prius Prime while it was the body shop. Fortunately she only lives 200 yards from work unlike when her and Voldemort bought it when they were still married.
 

Poor King

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Misjudging the underlining reality of manufacturing PHEV's which are a double whammy in regards to CO2 emissions :unsure:
 

gmenounos

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That article makes me wonder if one reason people buy plug-in hybrids is because they can feel righteous and use them in EV mode when they feel like it, but if they forget or don't bother to plug them in there's not much of a penalty. One thing I think about is whether or not I'd forget to plug in an EV every evening. Last night I forgot to put the garage door down when I got home: my phone was ringing and after the call I didn't get back out to the garage. I could see doing the same thing and not plugging in an EV. Problem is there are significant consequences.
It wouldn't be rocket science for your car to send a message to your phone reminding you that it's home, less than x% charged and not plugged in to the charger.
 

tikal

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Misjudging the underlining reality of manufacturing PHEV's which are a double whammy in regards to CO2 emissions :unsure:
Based on various graphs I have seen from wxman using the Argonne National Labs GREET model I do not think PHEVs are worse off than their non-hybrid ICE vehicle in terms of complete life cycle greenhouse emissions. I could be wrong of course.
 

Poor King

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Quite frankly, it is too early to calculate the final value with the multitude of scenarios that can be taken into account. If I were to break it down: exactly how are they calculating battery recycling emissions when most vehicles on the road are still on their first pack. Then by 2030 (9 years), there will be a TON of non-compliant diesels and classic cars which will be taken off the road in UK, permanently. Those vehicles will also contribute to the overall recycling conjecture based on all nations mandating to do so. It has been proven that a BEV starts to positively contribute to CO2 emissions once it has surpassed 50k on the odometer...

(And so taking my third to last comment above into consideration) Like bad fashion, most new car owners rid of theirs before that mark, only to purchase another new vehicle off the assembly line... even-then-so suggesting a final value that is indeterminable regardless of the technology driving the vehicle.
 

tikal

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Yes I agree with the above: properly taking care of your fuel efficient vehicle and lengthening the ownership years also contributes to a smaller environmental foot print on a per mile basis.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Three of my six cars are over 20 years old, one is 19, one is 10. Newest is a 2015. I'm pretty confident that keeping IBW running properly is greener than churning through new EVs every 3 years. Lots less expensive, too.
 

Rob Mayercik

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I think you're probably taking an overly literal interpretation of what I said because you don't like the message. Understandable. Cutting our umbilical cord to fossil fuels isn't easy- the internal combustion engine has become culturally engrained in our society. Of course I'm not blaming an inanimate object. If someone were to say to say "the problem with cigarettes is that they kill people" I bet you'd understand the message being conveyed.
Ok, I'll concede that we were not on the same wavelength regarding the initial post I replied to. Thank you for clarifying.

That said, my response had nothing to do with "not liking the message" - I don't have an issue with the notion that eventually EVs will be the majority per se, but what I do take issue with is the way it's presented in a lot of cases - it comes off to me too much like religious fervor in many cases, and there are too many that equate "an EV isn't right for what I need a vehicle for" with "Bad Person(TM)".

Thankfully, the EV enthusiasts here at TDIClub are what I think are among the most reasonable of the lot, as they seem to appreciate that their favorite tool isn't always the right one for a particular job. I've learned some interesting things about EVs from watching discussions like these, even though I'm content to stick with my ICEs for now.

Shall we consider this little digression concluded then, and move on?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Thankfully, the EV enthusiasts here at TDIClub are what I think are among the most reasonable of the lot, as they seem to appreciate that their favorite tool isn't always the right one for a particular job.
Reasonable? You must not see some of the posts I've read. I think the most generous I can be towards EV enthusiasts here is that they're no more or less biased than the average TDI enthusiast here.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Because unlike older ICE cars, EV tech is evolving quickly and makes older EVs obsolete. I'm sure you've seen where owners of older Model S cars can't download current features because their cars don't have enough computing power, or the display is too low res. And because batteries degrade, and the cars' value declines with that.

Most objective reviewers strongly suggest that EVs should be leased, not purchased, and should be turned in at the end of the lease term. They liken them to cell phones, in that they are quickly obsolete and you don't want to be stuck with last year's features. My 2002 car is materially no different in operation than my '93 car. Benefits of a mature technology.
 

nwdiver

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Because unlike older ICE cars, EV tech is evolving quickly and makes older EVs obsolete.
Less obsolete than an older ICE car. My 2012 MS doesn't have any of the latest FSD bells and whistles but neither did my Jetta. If you 'need' all that latest stuff to the extent that you would 'churn through' an EV every 3 years then how are you getting by with a 20 y/o ICE that also lacks all those accoutrements?

The batteries also don't degrade that badly. I have 185k miles on my 8.5 y/o EV. Still does everything I need it to do.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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You miss the point. Obsolete NAV, for example, is worse than no NAV. Slower charging is frustrating when you know something better is available, especially when charging speeds affect the usefulness of the vehicle. Just one example. And "does everything I need it to do," is pretty vague. Battery degradation rates seem to vary a lot depending on owner practices.

But that aside, I was responding to a post about the total environmental impact of a vehicle, from manufacture to recycling. My point was that if I keep my existing vehicle no one's using energy and natural resources to build me another one. Or using energy and natural resources to junk mine.
 

nwdiver

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You miss the point. Obsolete NAV, for example, is worse than no NAV. Slower charging is frustrating when you know something better is available, especially when charging speeds affect the usefulness of the vehicle. Just one example.

But that aside, I was responding to a post about the total environmental impact of a vehicle, from manufacture to recycling. My point was that if I keep my existing vehicle no one's using energy and natural resources to build me another one. Or using energy and natural resources to junk mine.
The NAV isn't obsolete. I still get updates. The car is still functionally better not worse than when I got it 8 years ago aside from normal wear and tear. What Tesla could update they did. My electronics were updated to LTE with faster internet, NAV and other items.

It's not like an EV you sell after 3 years is tossed into a volcano. Someone else will buy it. Look at the resale value of 2012 Teslas vs a comparable Mercedes or BMW.

The idea that holding on to an absurdly inefficient fleet of ICE vehicles is better because you're not spending additional resources building new more efficient vehicles is only true if your time horizon stops at ~4 years.... but if you stick to that logic shouldn't we at a minimum stop building new ICE?
 
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turbobrick240

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I'm looking forward to the Plaid Model S reveal event tonight. There seems to be quite a lot of speculation that some of the specs may be better than Tesla has previously listed. Range in particular. I don't expect it has the new 4680 cells like the canceled Plaid + was going to get, but that would certainly be exciting! Crossing my fingers that a vehicle to home/grid capability gets introduced.
 

Daemon64

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PHEV Owner here weighing in ( Although not without issues and problems ofcourse ): I would be plugging in the vehicle regularly. What drew me to the PHEV over a BEV is the following: The vehicles are not there for me yet.

Full List:
Jag - Not buying one.
Kia's - FWD No thank you.
E-Tron - Too Big too slow
Q4 / ID4 - ID4 AWD / Q4 weren't released at the time of ordering, but also too slow and too little range.
Mach-E / F150 - Neither we out when I ordered my vehicle, mach-e / F150 could be a real competitor for me if i was ordering today. Although F150 probably still too big.
Tesla - I physically don't fit properly in the M3, MS -- Have sat in them before. MX - Not a fan of the size but ultimately not a fan of the price tag or build Quality - MY - I think its ugly as hell, but to each their own. Cybertruck = vaporware right now, but don't like the look of it either.
Rivian pickup - Not out and way too freaking huge
Lordstown - Vaporware

Here are my basic requirements:

0-60 - Sub 4.8s
Range - If its the manufacturers that are generous with range numbers 330 miles, if its the manufacturers that are conservative with range numbers 280 - 300
Price Tag - Up to 65k max before taxes and all other things
Size - No bigger than a Q5 --- Only exception MIGHT be F150 --- but not sure I could bring myself to drive one.
Interior Headroom - Minimum 39.3 -- or I literally cannot fit in the car comfortably at all... its a nightmare otherwise often my head is in sunroofs.
Drive - AWD
More efficient than my Q5 TDI - Average MPG 28.2 Real world.

The thing is some of the newer vehicles look like going forward they might infact work.... but at the time of ordering what I wanted literally only existed in PHEV format with my requirements in mind. The little I have driven it I get around 26 miles of full BEV range and for like 80% of my driving that will get me 100% EV mode, and the other 20% of the time my real world highway MPG was 33.5 MPG ( all was calculated on fuelly ) -- The best I've ever seen on my TDI highway was 32.5 and that was on 19" 235/55/19, and the PHEV is 255/55/20 ... I am thinking I will drop the tires down to 19" and the less rolling res will translate into even better highway MPG... Now mind you that the CO2 output on the highway for the TDI doing that was 313.8, and for the Q5 PHEV it is 265 g/mi for that same trip, thats approx a 17% reduction for highway which most of my miles are not. But the reduction for 80% of my driving is substantial... as i got around 24/25 mpg in the city w/ the dieselwhich is around 430g co2 / mile, vs stupidly low for the PHEV battery... I was using 1 kWh / 2.5 miles..... So like you said it depends on the user, and not all of it is just virtue signaling.
 

turbobrick240

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Sorry to hear about your problems with the Q5 Daemon. I just posted a response in your thread before reading this. From what you're listing for requirements/preferences, I'd say you should test drive a Mach E. I think it meets your range spec. It's a good looking vehicle too, imo. I have yet to see one in the wild, but shouldn't be long now.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The idea that holding on to an absurdly inefficient fleet of ICE vehicles is better because you're not spending additional resources building new more efficient vehicles is only true if your time horizon stops at ~4 years.... but if you stick to that logic shouldn't we at a minimum stop building new ICE?
I don't understand what this means.

And I recognize that my non-emissions controlled diesel isn't the greenest thing going, even if it does get 50 MPG. But I'm pretty cynical about what EVs will do for the climate and how quickly people will make the transition. I believe that manufacturers will back off or parse their "no more ICE by 20XX" claims for a variety of reasons, most of them discussed here in other threads.

I've also traveled something like 4M miles by air in my lifetime, so my personal carbon footprint is already shot all to hell. :)
 

nwdiver

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I don't understand what this means.
It means, that on average, given two options; Option A: Continuing to use an existing ICE for 4 more years OR Option B: Recycling that ICE and investing energy to procure the materials to manufacture an EV then running that EV for 4 years. On average Option B requires less energy and fewer resources because of how incredibly dramatic the efficiency difference is between ICE and EV. But that's what I love about math. You can be cynical about 2 + 2 = 4.... but 2 + 2 still equals 4. Obviously if you never drive your car this won't make sense. I've always agreed that a diesel is a far cheaper car to never drive than an EV.

We need to get over this idea of holding on to something we have instead of actually looking at the numbers on whether it makes sense to keep it. We need to stop being so lazy. My sister had the same hesitance over ditching her propane water heater and replacing it with a heat pump water heater. She wanted to keep it because 'it worked' .... but the HPWH paid for itself in 18 months because of how much money she was wasting on propane and how much less energy the HPWH used. Or people that wait until their incandescent light bulbs die before replacing them with LEDs... Often the cost of continuing to use obsolete technology exceeds the cost of replacing it over a fairly short period of time.

Regardless. If the argument is that new cars are wasteful when we have used cars that work fine.... then why keep building new ICE?
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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I like your example, but not for the reason you shared it. You compared an automobile to a household appliance. For me cars are much more than that. I want to enjoy driving what I own, and for me that requires an ICE, a manual transmission, and a steering and suspension design that allows me to feel the road surface and what the tires are doing. There isn't an EV that offers any of that.

As stated above by me and others, we really don't know about the total energy consumption over the life of an EV, they're too new. It's not really about math, it's about how they're actually built, how well they perform and last, and how they're, ultimately, recycled. And although I can't dispute your efficiency argument, for me cars aren't only about efficiency. I've owned appliance cars when necessary (even a Camry, for God's sake!), but my real attachment is for VW group cars, especially the diesels. That's probably not going to change.
 

Poor King

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May 20, 2020
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PHEV Owner here weighing in ( Although not without issues and problems ofcourse ): I would be plugging in the vehicle regularly. What drew me to the PHEV over a BEV is the following: The vehicles are not there for me yet.

Full List:
Jag - Not buying one.
Kia's - FWD No thank you.
E-Tron - Too Big too slow
Q4 / ID4 - ID4 AWD / Q4 weren't released at the time of ordering, but also too slow and too little range.
Mach-E / F150 - Neither we out when I ordered my vehicle, mach-e / F150 could be a real competitor for me if i was ordering today. Although F150 probably still too big.
Tesla - I physically don't fit properly in the M3, MS -- Have sat in them before. MX - Not a fan of the size but ultimately not a fan of the price tag or build Quality - MY - I think its ugly as hell, but to each their own. Cybertruck = vaporware right now, but don't like the look of it either.
Rivian pickup - Not out and way too freaking huge
Lordstown - Vaporware

Here are my basic requirements:

0-60 - Sub 4.8s
Range - If its the manufacturers that are generous with range numbers 330 miles, if its the manufacturers that are conservative with range numbers 280 - 300
Price Tag - Up to 65k max before taxes and all other things
Size - No bigger than a Q5 --- Only exception MIGHT be F150 --- but not sure I could bring myself to drive one.
Interior Headroom - Minimum 39.3 -- or I literally cannot fit in the car comfortably at all... its a nightmare otherwise often my head is in sunroofs.
Drive - AWD
More efficient than my Q5 TDI - Average MPG 28.2 Real world.

The thing is some of the newer vehicles look like going forward they might infact work.... but at the time of ordering what I wanted literally only existed in PHEV format with my requirements in mind. The little I have driven it I get around 26 miles of full BEV range and for like 80% of my driving that will get me 100% EV mode, and the other 20% of the time my real world highway MPG was 33.5 MPG ( all was calculated on fuelly ) -- The best I've ever seen on my TDI highway was 32.5 and that was on 19" 235/55/19, and the PHEV is 255/55/20 ... I am thinking I will drop the tires down to 19" and the less rolling res will translate into even better highway MPG... Now mind you that the CO2 output on the highway for the TDI doing that was 313.8, and for the Q5 PHEV it is 265 g/mi for that same trip, thats approx a 17% reduction for highway which most of my miles are not. But the reduction for 80% of my driving is substantial... as i got around 24/25 mpg in the city w/ the dieselwhich is around 430g co2 / mile, vs stupidly low for the PHEV battery... I was using 1 kWh / 2.5 miles..... So like you said it depends on the user, and not all of it is just virtue signaling.
... Ioniq 5 or 6 from Hyundai maybe.

Unless someone comes up with a manual EV I could not entertain one. Then there's the political side of things which I was asked to not debate on here.
 

turbobrick240

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So the Plaid Model S is an absolute beast. Still making ~980 hp @ 20,000 rpm/200 mph! Crazy power curve thanks in part to the new carbon overwrapped rotors. A luxurious daily driver that can smoke a Bugatti... unreal.
 
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