Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

[El Dobro]

Tax credits: Ever take the mortgage interest deduction? If so, your interest payments are being subsidized by those who can't afford to buy a house. If not, do you also hold a grudge against anyone with a mortgage who deducted their interest payments? There are lots and lots of tax credits and deductions in the federal and state tax codes (some even for fossil fuels!), so calling out just one is making it sound like you actually are anti-EV.

Fuel taxes: Happy to pay my fair share. The gas tax (which hasn't increased since 1993) should be scrapped and replaced with something based on miles driven and vehicle weight.

Heavier vehicles: You are correct in that EVs are heavier. The curb weight of my 2023 Model 3 is 4034 pounds. The average new vehicle weight in 2021 was 4289 pounds. According to the same source, the average vehicle weight in 1975 was 4060 pounds. Were we worried about parking garages collapsing in 1975? Anyway, looking at some of the graphs from that document, I see that pickup truck weights increased by about 2000 pounds between 1985 and 2015, and that wasn't because they became electric:

View attachment 142215

And here's how the percentage of large SUVs (average weight 4500 pounds) has increased over the years:

View attachment 142216

Anyway, lots of cool data and graphs in that pdf. Stuff like average number of gears in manual and automatic transmissions over the years, fuel use by vehicle type, 0-60 times over the years, etc.

High insurance costs: Your insurance company knows exactly what kind of vehicle you drive and what your driving safety record is. They should be setting your rates according to the risk that they're taking on by insuring you and your vehicle. If you feel that they're subsidizing expensive EVs and passing the extra costs onto you, then you should shop around for a different company. Personally, I've been driving since I was 16 (42 years) and have never filed an auto insurance claim (other than 1 or maybe 2 windshield replacements). Hopefully the good luck will continue.

My Bolts weigh around 3700 lbs. each, my 1973 Cadillac Eldorado weighed 5100 lbs...

 

[turbodieseldyke]

It makes even less sense to assess a flat fee to EV registrations to try to compensate for them not consuming motor fuel.

True.

Coordinates could be rounded to the just what state the vehicle is in rather than the exact latitude and longitude and the data could be summarized for the entire year, showing just how many miles the vehicle travelled in each state over the past 12 months.

You've been alive how long? and you think the govt would limit itself from hoarding and abusing everyone's personal data, just because they "could"?

You can't measure miles traveled without having the military-precision sat tracking that we currently enjoy. Here's another one to your list of "cheats" -- GPS jammers.

If you want to fairly tax EV usage, then you need to ban off-grid charging as well as generic wall-plug home charging, and install separate meters for vehicle charging -- and add road tax to those electrons. Destroying everyone's privacy, even just for EV drivers, should not be considered.

• People that live right next to a state border can buy their gas across the border if it's cheaper.
• People can travel to another state without refueling (e.g. IBW's 800+ mile range allows travel to many nearby states without refueling).

People on borders can pay cheaper sales tax too. And people can drive from New York to Michigan to cash in soda cans that they bought in a cheaper state. People should be more interested in reducing govt spending, and less interested in ensuring the govt gets the funding it thinks it's entitled to.

 

[gmenounos]

If you want to fairly tax EV usage, then you need to ban off-grid charging as well as generic wall-plug home charging, and install separate meters for vehicle charging -- and add road tax to those electrons. Destroying everyone's privacy, even just for EV drivers, should not be considered.

Nope, kWh added to a battery or gallons of fuel pumped at a gas station in a particular location does not correlate to how much road wear occurred in a particular state. If you want to do it fairly then it needs to be calculated based on location driven and vehicle weight. That's the only way. Sorry for your loss of privacy, but I think that ship sailed once everyone started using cell phones.

 

[CantWrite]

Nope, kWh added to a battery or gallons of fuel pumped at a gas station in a particular location does not correlate to how much road wear occurred in a particular state. If you want to do it fairly then it needs to be calculated based on location driven and vehicle weight. That's the only way. Sorry for your loss of privacy, but I think that ship sailed once everyone started using cell phones.

I agree with @turbodieseldyke but people will always find ways to cheat.

tracking distance traveled is not the only way. With todays technology and how everything is connected, as soon as someone inserts their cc, they could use cameras or some other means and tie you, and your vehicles VIN together. Based on gallons pumped, weight of vehicle, established combined fuel economy based on your VIN a fuel tax could be calculated. Will it be perfect, no, but neither is distance traveled and weight. What if I’m at max payload, what if I’m pulling a trailer, what if I run studs year round, what if I run chains to be ornery.

a separate metered load tied to your local utility through your house panel will give charge data, coupled with your VIN will give an mpgE equivalent and road tax can be applied on a separate line item in your electric bill. Perfect solution, no

but it gives a fair comparison to an EV and brings a grossly outdated fuel/road tax a little closer to actuality.

AND it keeps you from being tracked. Ah yes, newer vehicles and phones track you anyway. I can leave a phone at home, I hate phones and pay $25/mo. In college I paid 19/mo for a landline with long distance, so I find $25/mo comparable. Then I can jump in my non computer diesels or carb’d vehicles and drive away. I’d prefer to keep a tracking device out of my plates and registration tags.

 

[gmenounos]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Where fuel is dispensed does not equal where roads are used and never will (unless that magical wireless charging from the road thing ever happens). Being tracked is not one of the top 10 things keeping me awake at night. You guys must have far more interesting lives than mine.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

Where fuel is dispensed does not equal where roads are used

The instant you leave the gas station, you are using that fuel on roads where the fuel was not dispensed. Nobody is driving 800 miles out of their way to fill up with cheaper gas, or even 80. They fill up at a station on or near their usual travel routes, or even right at Costco when they go shopping.

You're imagining problems that don't exist. It all averages out, and it simply works.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

My Bolts weigh around 3700 lbs. each, my 1973 Cadillac Eldorado weighed 5100 lbs...

I think it's convenient that there are a couple posts here comparing EV weight to domestic car weights in the mid-70s. Passenger cars, especially US ones, were probably at their heaviest in the 70s. Manufacturers were still largely using body-on-frame construction, and had to add heavy bumpers and other crash protection parts, which they had yet to figure out how to make without them being heavy. Also, large displacement engines were common because manufacturers hadn't figured out how to make power and meet emissions regs. Your '73 Eldorado may well have had a 460 cubic inch V8 that made less than 200 HP.

A Better comparison would be to look at cars made in the 90s or early 2000s. For example, my '93 Mercedes 300D, a mid-size luxury car in its day, weighed about 3,600 lbs. A B4 Passat weighs about 3,400. A MKIV VW weighs right around 3,000 lbs., depending on body style and configuration.

All cars have gotten larger and heavier: A current Honda Civic is way bigger than an Accord from only a few generations ago. A new Jetta is bigger than my B4 Passat. But EVs are 'way heavier. Compare a 3,700 lb. Bolt to a MKIV or V Golf: the Bolt is 5-700 lbs heavier.

A Rivian R1S weighs about 7,000 lbs. A Toyota Grand Highlander weights 4,500 lbs. That's a big difference.

 

[oilhammer]

That seems to be why they can chew through tires so quickly. We have a couple Leaf owners here that are on their third set of tires by 50k miles. It takes about seven gallons of oil to make one tire. Not to mention the transport of, and disposal of, both. My Golf can go 80k+ miles on one set.

The Amazon Rivian vans... holy crap. Some need tires at 10k miles or sooner. Seriously, that's nuts. Now to be fair, they are hard on everything, but even their Sprinters and Promasters can almost make it 25k miles on tires (and when I give these figures, keep in mind they'll run the tires until they are BALD).

Most people would say when a tire gets to the wear bars, they are ready for replacement... not these guys:

They'll run that worn out tire on this Sprinter another 5-10k miles, LOL.... or until it blows, whichever comes first.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

So far it's mostly the big corporations like the automakers who have exploited vehicle generated data to try to justify denying warranty coverage- We're fortunate that only the latest TDIs had the ability to monitor our automotive exploits and "call home" to VW to rat us off. Fortunately the 3G cell transceiver they hid in our cars is no longer supported, But "upgrade" to a Golf 8 and VW will probably be able to download not just how how the failed components got for how long, but the location of the autocross and you're times too. Heck, if they were actually helpful they could probably provide some driving and tuning tips... But even VW's lawyers would never allow that!

As far as the gov'ment misusing these mountains of data, they're a couple decades behind and still trying to properly apportion big truck registration and fuel taxes. I have no doubt the current Musk administration will try, but they're more interested if ferreting out anything called "DEI" and harassing harmless groups that aren't even 1% of the population than fair taxation.

 

[kjclow]

If you really want to fairly pay for road maintenance based on vehicle use and you want to do it state-by-state then you're going to have to do it via location and vehicle weight. Coordinates could be rounded to the just what state the vehicle is in rather than the exact latitude and longitude and the data could be summarized for the entire year, showing just how many miles the vehicle travelled in each state over the past 12 months.

NC takes part of that by our annual taxes and registration. Generally, the larger the vehicle, the higher the value used to calculate the taxes. The value of my truck is staying higher longer than my JSW did, percentage wise.

 

[turbobrick240]

Passenger cars contribute very little to road wear. Most all of it comes from commercial vehicles and mother nature. Though the few guys running studded snows year round aren't doing any favors.

 

[ZippyNH]

True.


You've been alive how long? and you think the govt would limit itself from hoarding and abusing everyone's personal data, just because they "could"?

You can't measure miles traveled without having the military-precision sat tracking that we currently enjoy. Here's another one to your list of "cheats" -- GPS jammers.

If you want to fairly tax EV usage, then you need to ban off-grid charging as well as generic wall-plug home charging, and install separate meters for vehicle charging -- and add road tax to those electrons. Destroying everyone's privacy, even just for EV drivers, should not be considered.



People on borders can pay cheaper sales tax too. And people can drive from New York to Michigan to cash in soda cans that they bought in a cheaper state. People should be more interested in reducing govt spending, and less interested in ensuring the govt gets the funding it thinks it's entitled to.

I have a relative in NB Canada that drives across the border to buy gas and groceries... actually on a first name basis with customs as I have ridden with him on a trip while visiting. The fact he also works in the paper/pulp mill that is actually on BOTH sides of the border and crosses while working several times a night is something I found interesting...the pulp is made in Canada and pumped to Maine USA to be made into products.
VAT and sales tax in Canada, New Brunswick especially is crazy. Crossing political lines to save $ is a game that's very old, and helps to limit the taxing power of the people in power on a very real way.

 

[ZippyNH]

That seems to be why they can chew through tires so quickly. We have a couple Leaf owners here that are on their third set of tires by 50k miles. It takes about seven gallons of oil to make one tire. Not to mention the transport of, and disposal of, both. My Golf can go 80k+ miles on one set.

The Amazon Rivian vans... holy crap. Some need tires at 10k miles or sooner. Seriously, that's nuts. Now to be fair, they are hard on everything, but even their Sprinters and Promasters can almost make it 25k miles on tires (and when I give these figures, keep in mind they'll run the tires until they are BALD).

Most people would say when a tire gets to the wear bars, they are ready for replacement... not these guys:

They'll run that worn out tire on this Sprinter another 5-10k miles, LOL.... or until it blows, whichever comes first.

Yeah lots of turns and local miles kill tires, but honestly have seen far worse on an airline's crew vehicles that are used at some locations due to limited hotel shuttles/lack of Uber.
Too bad the sprinters haven't been around long enough to have ultra-duty tires like city buses and day cab delivery trucks typically have....
Having driven a few miles on tires with MORE THAN AN INCH OF TREAD (on HD trucks)I can say the first few months suck, but man once they get below an inch they start to wear like iron....then if they are going to be retreads they are removed at legal limits, if not they can typically be re-grouved with a hot knife tool.
Buddy with a Tesla in las Vegas was complaining he gets about 10-18k out of a set of tires depending on how he drives...hell he laughs and says he could melt them off in a day. All that rubber crumb in the environment with the micro plastic must be GREAT FOR ENVIRONMENT.

 

[ZippyNH]

So far it's mostly the big corporations like the automakers who have exploited vehicle generated data to try to justify denying warranty coverage- We're fortunate that only the latest TDIs had the ability to monitor our automotive exploits and "call home" to VW to rat us off. Fortunately the 3G cell transceiver they hid in our cars is no longer supported, But "upgrade" to a Golf 8 and VW will probably be able to download not just how how the failed components got for how long, but the location of the autocross and you're times too. Heck, if they were actually helpful they could probably provide some driving and tuning tips... But even VW's lawyers would never allow that!

As far as the gov'ment misusing these mountains of data, they're a couple decades behind and still trying to properly apportion big truck registration and fuel taxes. I have no doubt the current Musk administration will try, but they're more interested if ferreting out anything called "DEI" and harassing harmless groups that aren't even 1% of the population than fair taxation.

Remember...just like TV's (anything with the term "Smart" in it, so anything in the last decade) are really just data harvesting tools.... actually sold as loss leaders in many cases with DATA sales allowing profitable operation. It's actually why VIZIO was purchased by Walmart recently even though it already has a "house" brand, OMN...the data and selling advertising is that profitable.
Anytime you buy a product that's low cost or barely covering its production, the YOU ARE THE PRODUCT.
FREE IS ONLY FREE BECAUSE SOMEBODY ELSE IS PAYING FOR IT in many cases....be it a donation, advertising sales or data sales.

 

[kjclow]

I have a relative in NB Canada that drives across the border to buy gas and groceries... actually on a first name basis with customs as I have ridden with him on a trip while visiting. The fact he also works in the paper/pulp mill that is actually on BOTH sides of the border and crosses while working several times a night is something I found interesting...the pulp is made in Canada and pumped to Maine USA to be made into products.
VAT and sales tax in Canada, New Brunswick especially is crazy. Crossing political lines to save $ is a game that's very old, and helps to limit the taxing power of the people in power on a very real way.

One of my first car trip into BC was during the Victoria holiday. The line of cars running south across the border to get groceries was ridiculous. I was told that the price difference was over $1 for a gallon of milk.

 

[El Dobro]

Yeah lots of turns and local miles kill tires, but honestly have seen far worse on an airline's crew vehicles that are used at some locations due to limited hotel shuttles/lack of Uber.
Too bad the sprinters haven't been around long enough to have ultra-duty tires like city buses and day cab delivery trucks typically have....
Having driven a few miles on tires with MORE THAN AN INCH OF TREAD (on HD trucks)I can say the first few months suck, but man once they get below an inch they start to wear like iron....then if they are going to be retreads they are removed at legal limits, if not they can typically be re-grouved with a hot knife tool.
Buddy with a Tesla in las Vegas was complaining he gets about 10-18k out of a set of tires depending on how he drives...hell he laughs and says he could melt them off in a day. All that rubber crumb in the environment with the micro plastic must be GREAT FOR ENVIRONMENT.

I have a lot of kids around here with fart muffler laden, sheetbox Hondas, who feel if they don't peel out and also do donuts, they're not showing how manly they are. I wonder how long their tires are lasting.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Walmart built a super center in Bottineau, a town of 2000 in rural north central North Dakota just because it was only 10 miles to the Canadian border.

 

[ZippyNH]

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/republican-senators-call-1000-tax-new-ev-sales-pay-road-repairs-2025-02-12/

Sounds like we aren't the only ones talking about the effect of electric cars on tax collection, etc

 

[gulfcoastguy]

I hope that they check which plants are currently active or under construction in their districts. EVs weigh 3 times what ICE cars do? Mine weighs 4600 pounds . One third of that is 1534 pounds. Which vehicle are they comparing it to a motorcycle? They want $1000 dollars for federal road maintenance up front not divide into yearly increments. So used car buyers get a free ride? Last the federal gas or diesel tax hasn’t been increased since 1994, I ought to know since I was an engineer for my state’s DOT for 34 years. Ignorant FUD spreading.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

They want $1000 dollars for federal road maintenance up front not divide into yearly increments. So used car buyers get a free ride?

For now. When the new cars with the $1000 penalty are sold, those owners will try to pass that cost to the next sucker.

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

Put a $1K surcharge on registration and new car sales will move to other states, already happening with Montana offering no sales tax.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

The article specifies a $1000 federal tax, not state.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Put a $1K surcharge on registration and new car sales will move to other states, already happening with Montana offering no sales tax.

That only works sometimes. If I buy a car out of state I still have to pay sales tax when I register it. And if I get out of state plates insurance doesn't like it, nor does Massachusetts. They eventually track you down and make you re-register it here.

 

[turbodieseldyke]

Montana is where people reg their expensive cars under a LLC. Sounds like a huge hassle, but must be worth it for certain cars/individuals, since there's a boutique industry for it.

 

[ZippyNH]

https://www.torquenews.com/1083/im-...e-i-would-have-return-car-fully-charged-and-i

Mind boggling....Hertz Lost $2.9 Billion After EV Gamble Didn't Pay Off
And remember that's hertz, the company that was trying to claw it way out of a near total collapse and bankruptcy by embracing EV's from multiple companies...
And individual owner hope to do better....

 

[gulfcoastguy]

Yep I ran into one of those Hertz Teslas at
an Electrify America charging station. He couldn’t understand why the plug didn’t fit his Tesla. He had wanted to rent one as a test drive in preparation to buying one. They rented him one, didn’t tell him how to find the vehicle screen to find Tesla stations or provide him an adapter to use non Tesla chargers. I have no sympathy for Hertz.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Hertz's near bankruptcy came in large part from the decline in travel during the pandemic, and then the issues in replacing cars in their fleet because of increasing prices and supply shortages. EVs didn't help, but I don't think they were the most important factor. In terms of the impact on their current financial performance...that's a another story.

I have to confess I frequently return rental cars without refueling them. I tend to cut things pretty close when going to an airport, and often don't want to take the 5 min to refuel. On a recent trip to LA I didn't refuel, and as it turns out the combination of scarce shuttle buses, the traffic within the airport, and a gate/terminal change for my flight meant that if I had stopped I might have missed the plane. I can't imagine adding x amount of time to find a working charger, hope it's not occupied, and recharge an EV.

 

[Tin Man]

I have a feeling Hertz screwed up royally and without my supervision even!

My entire decision to go full EV was based on perceived benefits vs drawbacks which didn't include like or dislike of Elon Musk, what the neighbors think, etc. We just love the way the cars drive and look and having $7500 subsidies each helped. The cost for night rate electricity has been great so far....

The deal I got was similar to getting the last equivalent diesel cars we got rid of due to mechanical issues (Jaguar XE 2.0d) and age (BMW 535d). I love diesel but the deal for the EV's was cost-appropriate and gives us an out with 3 year leasing with no new diesel cars available in the USA.

Its a sure bet that things will change so its anyone's guess how costs will go.

 

[Mozambiquer]

Speaking of Tesla... I just submitted an application to be able to buy parts from them. There's no shops locally that work on them, so I thought why not! I'm taking some classes the beginning of March, and gearing up to be able to do Tesla repairs. Tesla and euro cars... Good match, maybe?

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I'll be interested to see how that goes, both your experience getting parts and what you think of repairing the cars. I suspect it's not going to be the same as working on an older VW.