Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
China literally has piles of junked EVs laying around... lots so big they can be seen from space. Don't assume they are doing anything "right".
Not what's really going on with them. This video is from someone who is there.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
oilhammer's not wrong. These are junk EVs that no one wants. And an interesting disposal problem.

One challenge with rapidly evolving technology of any kind is that earlier generations rapidly become obsolete. It's far less likely that 9 year old ICE vehicles would just end up parked in a field.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
They went from piles of bikes, to piles of ebikes, to piles of cars. It's pathetic. These are not fields of nicely "stored" cars. These are literally STACKS of cars, not all of which are EVs but many (most) are.

Just google it. Images and videos one after the other.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
...And although electricity generation sometimes does involve the potential for air quality impacts and carbon emissions too, it can matter that the generation of those pollutants is NOT from a tailpipe. Both in terms of keeping the pollutant source away from the populations that could be harmed by it, and in terms of the mechanics of addressing the pollution itself....
EPA provides health & environmental damage cost estimates (EDX) for many emission source sectors in its "BenMAP" table (https://www.epa.gov/benmap/sector-based-pm25-and-ozone-benefit-ton-estimates).

Based on the BenMAP EDX for "Internal Combustion Engines," "Electricity Generation Units" and "Refineries," and the latest version of the GREET model, EDX of the default BEV in GREET is HIGHER than the EDX of the default diesel ICEV (0.80 ¢/mi vs. 0.60 ¢/mi). That's in a projected grid mix of 34% fossil (mostly NG) and 66% non-fossil (49% RE).

Including "feedstock" of the respective "fuels" results in 0.96 ¢/mi (BEV), 0.92 ¢/mi (diesel ICEV). Feedstock would include emissions generated during well drilling, pipeline construction and fracking, and the "Oil and Natural Gas" sector in BenMAP would be the most logical set of associated damage cost factors. This would be the full well-to-wheels EDX.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
https://www.torquenews.com/1083/im-...e-i-would-have-return-car-fully-charged-and-i

Kinda sums it up...
Have had rental places offer electric cars as a upgrade...and sometimes I think... maybe a better parking spot at the hotel (IF ITS OPEN) and when done I technically have to move it...
Plus takes away the flexibility in my free time to a certain extent... gotta do advanced mental gymnastics to plan my limited miles around any mini road trips or explain to the company I can't suddenly drive 200+ miles on short notice if an emergency of some type pops up.
Plus to add...
"Let’s take a look at some other members of the group who added their thoughts under DM’s post. SC added, “Hertz once tried to give me a Bolt...I was like, that is a big no.” TM said, “I love my EV, I could not imagine ever renting one unless I had access to overnight level II charging. How is anyone ever supposed to return the car at 100%? That's not possible unless the charger is in their parking lot.” GP typed, “Renting an EV is not good. I own 2 EVs and I don't think I would rent an EV unless I could charge at the place I was staying at.”



As you can see, these are EV enthusiasts who don’t want one when they rent a vehicle while traveling. But we should balance this story by saying that many of the members in the group commented that in their personal experience, the policy for returning EVs was not 100% SOC, but 70%."


Makes you wonder what HERTZ was thinking when they bought a huge fleet...most are used as ride-sharing rentals as they are desperately trying to sell them as the values are dropping like a rock... occasionally seeing them advertised for as little as $18k...for a Tesla! Talk about loss of value. Plus they even offer a bigger discount if you are in it as a rental they buy it! Some people would jump at the offer thinking, great deal, but most people that actually buy them then seem to regret it cause reality is things are priced in the market at the value
 

Tin Man

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2001
Location
Coastal Empire
TDI
Daughter's: 2004 NB TDI PD GLS DSG (gone to pasture)
From my view, Hertz should have organized their charging policy and made a possible deal with an outside charging network (Tesla, ChargePoint) for easy access and perhaps a discount. Rookie mistakes.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
Have had rental places offer electric cars as a upgrade...and sometimes I think... maybe a better parking spot at the hotel (IF ITS OPEN) and when done I technically have to move it...
Plus takes away the flexibility in my free time to a certain extent... gotta do advanced mental gymnastics to plan my limited miles around any mini road trips or explain to the company I can't suddenly drive 200+ miles on short notice if an emergency of some type pops up.
So, basically you have 0 experience renting an EV. I've rented 3 and own 1:
  • While looking for my next car, I rented an ID.4 for 4 days via Turo. It was too big for what I was looking for and not that easy to find chargers on the road.
  • Also rented a Bolt EV for 2 days via Turo. Great car (hatchback!) but would not have been so good on road trips because of the max charging speed was not that fast.
  • Bought the Model 3 a bit over 2 years and 26k miles ago. Great car. Don't regret the purchase one bit. Would buy again. Road trips are easy. Chargers are everywhere. CEO is an a$$.
  • Rented a Model 3 for a week in southern California last summer (Turo again). No issues. Chargers everywhere. No waiting.
I still own my '99 Golf and '01 Jetta wagon (TDI conversion). I'm keeping the Golf but will sell the wagon after I've fixed a few things. The TDIs have been great, but are old and I live in the Salt Belt, so they're not going to last forever.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
According to the video, it wasn't the chargers. For some reason Kia shuts off battery preconditioning when the battery levels fall below 19%, which is, of course, when you need it. So some cells were cooler than others, and that caused the car to limit the charge rate.

When I watch that kind of stuff, I can't help but wonder: Why would I need to know this?
Why would I need to know how many pound-feet to torque my camshaft bolt? Why would I think about what kind of engine oil to use or whether to install a bypass filter? Yet people here argue this kind of thing endlessly. I think you can handle it. :)
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
d24tdi you're right that an EV is not the right tool for a long distance road trip. The problem is, manufacturers are selling EVs here that are large and luxurous, with big battery packs to maximize range. And they're expensive. If I'm going to spend $80-100K for a Lucid, Tesla Model S, or Mercedes EQE, I'm going to want to take it on a road trip, dammit.

If EV makers offered small, less expensive options here that would serve well as local, short distance tools that would be largely charged at home, then it would make more sense for many people to make the transition to EVs. I thought the Chevy Bolt was a good example of that type of EV, but it was discontinued. The e-Honda is another, but not offered here. Same with the new Renault 5, which might be the best example yet.

Instead we get a Silverado EV with a 100+kW battery and a $100K price tag. What a waste.
I bet if you converted what you paid for IBW into 2023 dollars, it wouldn't be a whole lot less than I paid for my Model 3 (after tax credits).

The reason we don't have small, cheap EVs here is the same reason that we don't have wagons and hatchbacks. Consumers want to buy giant SUVs and pickup trucks.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
I've posted this before: I am a good candidate for an EV for daily driving. My daily drive is usually less than 60 miles between commuting, shopping, etc.; and I live in a house with an attached garage where I could easily install a charger. If I kept a diesel for longer drives, I'd probably never have to charge away from home.

But why would I pay the price of a new EV, be it $30K or $80K, pay the higher taxes and insurance costs for a new car, and pay to have a charger installed, when I can continue to drive one of my old TDIs at very low cost? I wouldn't.
You have at least 2 TDIs and a BMW diesel. (And a freakin' 275 gallon diesel tank in your garage!) And you own a diesel parts store and you have a friend/guru available to do any maintenance you need. So, yeah, I get why you're not jumping on a new EV.

Me, I had 2 aging TDIs and no convenient maintenance situation unless I do it myself (which I've been doing for the past 20 years), I mostly work from home, and my wife can charge at work (not free, but cheaper than at home). An EV was an easy choice for a new car and it has worked out great. We didn't even have a charger installed until after we had the car for a year.

People need to do their own research and buy what car works best for them. I don't feel too bad for anyone that bought a non-Tesla EV and expected road trips to be easy. It will get there eventually, but we're not there yet. If you want to get an EV that's easy for road trips, I think you'd need to hold your nose and go with a Tesla. They charge fast, have long range and the chargers are all over the place. If you want an EV for commuting and around town, pretty much anything would work. And if you don't want an EV, there are a million choices. Nobody's telling you what you have to buy.
 

CantWrite

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 8, 2021
Location
Placerville CO
TDI
2005 Passat Wagon (BHW/5-spd conv, 03T). I keep in touch with the (2) ALH's I sold.
I guess its not from cutting the fuel bill, be it gasoline or diesel from $200/$300 per month to nearly $5 per month for $0.02/KwHr at night electricity as BMW gives free level 3 charging for 2 years at VW owned Electrify America chargers. Of course mostly home-owners have this as well as the $7500 rebate currently at risk of being cancelled. Who knows what will happen.... but the EV's drive magnificently and are a threat to get speeding tickets as we have found, so the minor inconvenience of charging can be dealt with not too differently than finding proper diesel for cars not too long ago......
How do they meter the usage only to charge your car? I assume that charger must manage it and then your bill breaks down the electrical usage for charging at 2 cents/kwh. Cause that is a great price for electricity.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
gmenounos, you're right, my situation advantages me keeping my 5(!) TDIs. And I still enjoy driving them. My point about the EV6 was not learning about things like battery preconditioning, but about the vehicle telling me I can't make it to my next planned stop. That anxiety, even though I know it's wrong, is not something I would want to add to my life.

The new cost of IBW in 2002 translates to $33,500 today: Probably about what your Tesla cost. However, cars were expensive in the 90s and early 2000s. Save the recent pandemic and post-pandemic price increases, they have gotten less expensive in recent years. And I wouldn't bet on your Tesla being around in 20 years.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
... And if you don't want an EV, there are a million choices. Nobody's telling you what you have to buy.
Um, never heard of this thing called the Government then, have you? All I can say is thank goodness I don't live in California, and thank goodness some of the nonsense is going to [hopefully] change now, even if it does mean the Telsa fanboys have had to remove their gold framed picture of Elon from their mantel.

However, you're right that a lot of our awful choices in new cars stem from what consumers have chosen, or what the manufacturers have nudged them into. But, that's why I will continue to maintain all my old stuff. It's cheaper, it's almost always better, and it's already outlasted the newer stuff.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
Please note ....I am sick of the arguments being virtue signaling..... omiting so many facts in reality.
I often read that the pro electric people are talking of the petroleum industry getting subsides...
Yet they forget all the public $$ going to build chargers...even chargers at business are often REQUIRED, so it in effect becomes a tax that ICE drivers get nothing from.
They omit the info on tax rebates or subsides on the initial purchase...money from people who can afford a 50+k car....
They then omit the fact while their cars are HEAVIER and HARDER on the roads, wearing them out faster like trucks, they DON'T PAY FUEL TAXES , so states don't get revenue from them driving to maintain the roads....so gas cars drivers are giving $$$ to people driving very $$$ cars to drive them cheaper or closer to the cost of a gas car....
Because battery cars are so heavy, simple things like parking garages are getting more $$ to be safe for the higher weights of battery cars...
Have I mentioned car insurance costs?? Going up for everyone, largely attributed to electric cars because a dent to the bottom of a Tesla, etc can total a car...yes documented and many stories.
Plus training and new equipment for fire departments...so many changes and $$$ getting spent on places people don't expect.
It's a huge $$$ and many electric car people seem to believe that all this $$$ doesn't affect the economy, inflation or anything else.
Don't think I am anti electric cars, but the typical electric car cheerleaders often omit any fact that's not convenient, using a playbook that includes omiting inconvenient facts claiming their cars are wonderful, cheaper per mile, safer, will save the world, and can I go on? It's so much virtue signaling it gets me ill at times...
The reality is it's a multi trillion dollar change that many of the people who are pushing the change are doing it because it's an opportunity for them to make $$$$ directly or indirectly.
Always follow the $$$.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
And I wouldn't bet on your Tesla being around in 20 years.
Yeah, seems unlikely, but I'm going to do my best. I'm hoping that within 6 or 7 years, I'll be retired and relocated somewhere where they don't drench the roads in salt every winter. I definitely won't be putting 500k miles on it, though. :)
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
In this video, the oil subsidies and EV subsidies are discussed, along with other government subsidies.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
Yeah, seems unlikely, but I'm going to do my best. I'm hoping that within 6 or 7 years, I'll be retired and relocated somewhere where they don't drench the roads in salt every winter. I definitely won't be putting 500k miles on it, though. :)
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
or one of those extremely retarded states who legally forced themselves to adopt Calif emissions standards.
I know DEI is supposed to be dead but can you please refrain from using that word? thanks
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Please note ....I am sick of the arguments being virtue signaling..... omiting so many facts in reality.
I often read that the pro electric people are talking of the petroleum industry getting subsides...
Yet they forget all the public $$ going to build chargers...even chargers at business are often REQUIRED, so it in effect becomes a tax that ICE drivers get nothing from.
They omit the info on tax rebates or subsides on the initial purchase...money from people who can afford a 50+k car....
They then omit the fact while their cars are HEAVIER and HARDER on the roads, wearing them out faster like trucks, they DON'T PAY FUEL TAXES , so states don't get revenue from them driving to maintain the roads....so gas cars drivers are giving $$$ to people driving very $$$ cars to drive them cheaper or closer to the cost of a gas car....
Because battery cars are so heavy, simple things like parking garages are getting more $$ to be safe for the higher weights of battery cars...
Have I mentioned car insurance costs?? Going up for everyone, largely attributed to electric cars because a dent to the bottom of a Tesla, etc can total a car...yes documented and many stories.
Plus training and new equipment for fire departments...so many changes and $$$ getting spent on places people don't expect.
It's a huge $$$ and many electric car people seem to believe that all this $$$ doesn't affect the economy, inflation or anything else.
Don't think I am anti electric cars, but the typical electric car cheerleaders often omit any fact that's not convenient, using a playbook that includes omiting inconvenient facts claiming their cars are wonderful, cheaper per mile, safer, will save the world, and can I go on? It's so much virtue signaling it gets me ill at times...
The reality is it's a multi trillion dollar change that many of the people who are pushing the change are doing it because it's an opportunity for them to make $$$$ directly or indirectly.
Always follow the $$$.
NC has a bill on the floor to charge anyone with an electric vehicle $250 with their annual registration renewal. They are seeing that the more EVs on the road, the less fuel taxes paid. It also leads back to the argument that fuel taxes do not cover the full price of road upkeep. The last numbers I remember seeing are around 40% in most states. The remaining funds come out of property tax revenue.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
Please note ....I am sick of the arguments being virtue signaling..... omiting so many facts in reality.
I often read that the pro electric people are talking of the petroleum industry getting subsides...
Yet they forget all the public $$ going to build chargers...even chargers at business are often REQUIRED, so it in effect becomes a tax that ICE drivers get nothing from.
They omit the info on tax rebates or subsides on the initial purchase...money from people who can afford a 50+k car....
They then omit the fact while their cars are HEAVIER and HARDER on the roads, wearing them out faster like trucks, they DON'T PAY FUEL TAXES , so states don't get revenue from them driving to maintain the roads....so gas cars drivers are giving $$$ to people driving very $$$ cars to drive them cheaper or closer to the cost of a gas car....
Because battery cars are so heavy, simple things like parking garages are getting more $$ to be safe for the higher weights of battery cars...
Have I mentioned car insurance costs?? Going up for everyone, largely attributed to electric cars because a dent to the bottom of a Tesla, etc can total a car...yes documented and many stories.
Plus training and new equipment for fire departments...so many changes and $$$ getting spent on places people don't expect.
It's a huge $$$ and many electric car people seem to believe that all this $$$ doesn't affect the economy, inflation or anything else.
Don't think I am anti electric cars, but the typical electric car cheerleaders often omit any fact that's not convenient, using a playbook that includes omiting inconvenient facts claiming their cars are wonderful, cheaper per mile, safer, will save the world, and can I go on? It's so much virtue signaling it gets me ill at times...
The reality is it's a multi trillion dollar change that many of the people who are pushing the change are doing it because it's an opportunity for them to make $$$$ directly or indirectly.
Always follow the $$$.
Tax credits: Ever take the mortgage interest deduction? If so, your interest payments are being subsidized by those who can't afford to buy a house. If not, do you also hold a grudge against anyone with a mortgage who deducted their interest payments? There are lots and lots of tax credits and deductions in the federal and state tax codes (some even for fossil fuels!), so calling out just one is making it sound like you actually are anti-EV.

Fuel taxes: Happy to pay my fair share. The gas tax (which hasn't increased since 1993) should be scrapped and replaced with something based on miles driven and vehicle weight.

Heavier vehicles: You are correct in that EVs are heavier. The curb weight of my 2023 Model 3 is 4034 pounds. The average new vehicle weight in 2021 was 4289 pounds. According to the same source, the average vehicle weight in 1975 was 4060 pounds. Were we worried about parking garages collapsing in 1975? Anyway, looking at some of the graphs from that document, I see that pickup truck weights increased by about 2000 pounds between 1985 and 2015, and that wasn't because they became electric:

1738853291979.png

And here's how the percentage of large SUVs (average weight 4500 pounds) has increased over the years:

1738853546313.png

Anyway, lots of cool data and graphs in that pdf. Stuff like average number of gears in manual and automatic transmissions over the years, fuel use by vehicle type, 0-60 times over the years, etc.

High insurance costs: Your insurance company knows exactly what kind of vehicle you drive and what your driving safety record is. They should be setting your rates according to the risk that they're taking on by insuring you and your vehicle. If you feel that they're subsidizing expensive EVs and passing the extra costs onto you, then you should shop around for a different company. Personally, I've been driving since I was 16 (42 years) and have never filed an auto insurance claim (other than 1 or maybe 2 windshield replacements). Hopefully the good luck will continue.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
NC has a bill on the floor to charge anyone with an electric vehicle $250 with their annual registration renewal. They are seeing that the more EVs on the road, the less fuel taxes paid. It also leads back to the argument that fuel taxes do not cover the full price of road upkeep. The last numbers I remember seeing are around 40% in most states. The remaining funds come out of property tax revenue.
Obviously one set amount of tax on a car that might travel 10 miles or 100,000 in a year in ineffective and just a stop gap action....
It unfortunately leads us to a system that's suddenly like what commercial vehicles have...a per mile system, rather than being essentially prepaid by you when you fuel vehicles as you go....
Several states have discussed similar with states like Oregon leading the way if I recall.
With cars, taxing fuel with their limited range was always considered good enough as opposed to the "apportioned" system that CMV have (,often having 1000 mile range) where they report miles traveled, and pay accordingly to each state, out of the fuel taxes they have paid....it's also why with a CMV the pump price often isn't important because if you buy fuel in a Low tax states you can have a bill at the end of the year... simple fact is the margin or mark-up is important and often higher tax states have sellers that are taking a smaller cut, resulting in lower costs...just background info on why you see trucks getting fuel what seems to be more $$$ states at times.
But it appears where we are going here is the systems proposed will use GPS to track peoples every mile to ensure the correct locations get the $$ to avoid people registering their cars in a "low tax" location then driving in a higher tax area....
So more government monitoring....more tracking..more control that could be used with the data inappropriately.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
NC has a bill on the floor to charge anyone with an electric vehicle $250 with their annual registration renewal. They are seeing that the more EVs on the road, the less fuel taxes paid. It also leads back to the argument that fuel taxes do not cover the full price of road upkeep. The last numbers I remember seeing are around 40% in most states. The remaining funds come out of property tax revenue.
For EVs, NJ charges $250 on top of the $79 registration fee and it goes up $10 more each year for the next 3 years.
 
Last edited:

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
For EVs, NJ charges $250 on top of the $79 registration fee and it goes up $10 more each year for the next 3 years.
Sounds like it will make owning an EV $$$ for a low miles driver that doesn't want the hassle of mx, fuel going bad in the tank, oil changes at extremely low miles due to time, etc...that an electric car could be ideal for. Real shame they are actively driving people away from electric cars that they would be perfect for, retirees or people who want a near zero mx local car.
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
My state charges all hybrids, plug in hybrids, and EVs a yearly tag fee. It started out at $150 but is tied to the inflation rate. Currently about $190 a year.
The state gas tax was 18.5 cents per gallon ( no sales tax) and had remained there since 1987. This month they finally added a 5% sales tax. Currently that will add about 13 cents a gallon.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
Sounds like it will make owning an EV $$$ for a low miles driver that doesn't want the hassle of mx, fuel going bad in the tank, oil changes at extremely low miles due to time, etc...that an electric car could be ideal for. Real shame they are actively driving people away from electric cars that they would be perfect for, retirees or people who want a near zero mx local car.
We're used to stuff like this in NJ. We call it BOHICA, Bend Over Here It Comes Again.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
We're used to stuff like this in NJ. We call it BOHICA, Bend Over Here It Comes Again.
Typical the more progressively liberal the state, the more of that happens. Everybody figures somebody else will pay for the "good" ideas and people are happy for it for a bit till they realize money is getting taken from one pocket, and then you get 50% less back cause the middleman always has his cut.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
Typical the more progressively liberal the state, the more of that happens. Everybody figures somebody else will pay for the "good" ideas and people are happy for it for a bit till they realize money is getting taken from one pocket, and then you get 50% less back cause the middleman always has his cut.
Our governor, Comrade Murphy, thinks NJ is Kalifornia Lite.
 

gmenounos

Vendor
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Location
Watertown, MA, USA
TDI
'99.5 Golf GLS, '01 Jetta GLX Wagon (TDI conversion)
It unfortunately leads us to a system that's suddenly like what commercial vehicles have...a per mile system, rather than being essentially prepaid by you when you fuel vehicles as you go....
States have been taxing gas for almost 100 years. It was probably the most practical way to pay for road upkeep back then but there are lots of ways that it's not accurate nor fair:
  • People that live right next to a state border can buy their gas across the border if it's cheaper.
  • People can travel to another state without refueling (e.g. IBW's 800+ mile range allows travel to many nearby states without refueling).
  • Fuel usage does not exactly correlate with road wear. Underinflated tires, excessive usage of air conditioning, excessive idling, dragging brakes, larger wheels, rooftop carriers all reduce fuel economy without increasing road wear. Driving at different speeds uses more or less fuel due to wind resistance.
  • Lawn mowers, leaf blowers, generators all use fuel but do not affect roads.
  • Some people cheat by filling up with offroad fuel.
It makes even less sense to assess a flat fee to EV registrations to try to compensate for them not consuming motor fuel.

If you really want to fairly pay for road maintenance based on vehicle use and you want to do it state-by-state then you're going to have to do it via location and vehicle weight. Coordinates could be rounded to the just what state the vehicle is in rather than the exact latitude and longitude and the data could be summarized for the entire year, showing just how many miles the vehicle travelled in each state over the past 12 months.
 
Top