Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

[AndyBees]

I've been sitting here reading these comments while letting my gasoline generator run. I've not had it started in over a year. I had to clean the carburetor. It's now purring like a kitten. I'm letting it power a 1500 watt electric heater in the basement to not let all that energy go to waste.It is not like one of those automatic Generac propane or natural gas powered units that kicks-on once a week for a dry run. Maybe in the future, there will be economical "compact" storage batteries available to get us through when the local electric service goes down due to weather related invents or whatever.

Anyway, my point is, many of us are waiting on the technology to improve and not burden us at the same time. Consumers will venture in as we've seen with the early Prius and other hybrids. Seems those first Prius hybrids were introduced to North America about 25 years ago. Practically all of them have been rolling billboards with loads of bumper/window stickers. As EVs have made inroads, I suppose we can say they're improving. As has been stated, access to a charging station is going to be an obstacle for some time to come, especially to those apartment dwellers as has been mentioned. A couple of days ago, I noticed a charging station at the local Pilot station that I did not know existed. I suppose there is an app for locating them. I've seen two solar powered charging stations within a 75 mile radius of my home, both put up by gov'ment agencies (Tennessee Valley Authority and Tennessee State Parks). I suspect those have huge storage batteries located below ground.

As I may have stated, I've driven a Gasoline Hybrid and was impressed.

Side note: I have just recently retrofit the wiring in my house to set-up for a Generac unit to run on Natural Gas (natural gas well on the property). I'll probably install a 15kw unit. It will meet my needs, maybe even for an EV.

 

[kjclow]

So, how is that Ecodiesel holding up? If I remember correctly, there have been problems with that engine and poor Dealership support.
Tell me if I am wrong.

So far, the DPF service at 100k was the only thing out of the ordinary. The full 100k services were kind of expensive and eye opening but nothing that wasn't ram/diesel specific. It's kind of like my JSW. I know others have had issues and I keep anticipating problems but I just keep pushing forward.

Took the truck from NC to IA over New Years to move my mom into assisted living. Bucked some massive headwinds on the way there so only made about 18 mpg on the interstate. Coming back, had a 6x12 u-haul full of furniture for the kids to fight (?) over and mpg dropped to just over 16. Summer trips, I could usually keep it in the mid 20s. My biggest self-abuse issue was running into a light support in the hotel parking lot. At first, I thought it was just a few small dents but today I noticed that the left side of the front bumper is pushed in further than it's supposed to be. Oh crap!

 

[kjclow]

Remember my first Prius on a business trip...
Reminded me of a toaster, an appliance...just a tool to do a job...but no redeeming qualities.
Sure, they have gotten better with each generation but still, wasn't a driver's car.

My first prius on a business trip was in mid NY state in middle of Jan. I think the high of the day was -15F. The tanker truck that I was supposed to meet at the customer was 4 hours late because he shut his truck off overnight and did not plug in. Took him that long to find someone willing and able to get him running. As far as I know, my prius never ran off the batteries and stayed on the gas engine the whole time I had it. It was also one of the worst handling front wheel drive cars I've ever tried to drive on frozen crap.

 

[jmodge]

I've been sitting here reading these comments while letting my gasoline generator run. I've not had it started in over a year. I had to clean the carburetor. It's now purring like a kitten. I'm letting it power a 1500 watt electric heater in the basement to not let all that energy go to waste.It is not like one of those automatic Generac propane or natural gas powered units that kicks-on once a week for a dry run. Maybe in the future, there will be economical to own "compact" storage batteries available to get us through when the local electric service goes down due to weather related invents or whatever.

Anyway, my point is, many of us are waiting on the technology to improve and not burden us at the same time. Consumers will venture in as we've seen with the early Prius and other hybrids. Seems those first Prius hybrids were introduced to North America about 25 years ago. Practically all of them have been rolling billboards with loads of bumper/window stickers. As EVs have made inroads, I suppose we can say they're improving. As has been stated, access to a charging station is going to be an obstacle for some time to come, especially to those apartment dwellers as has been mentioned. A couple of days ago, I noticed a charging station at the local Pilot station that I did not know existed. I suppose there is an app for locating them. I've seen two solar powered charging stations within a 75 mile radius of my home, both put up by gov'ment agencies (Tennessee Valley Authority and Tennessee State Parks). I suspect those have huge storage batteries located below ground.

As I may have stated, I've driven a Gasoline Hybrid and was impressed.

Side note: I have just recently retrofit the wiring in my house to set-up for a Generac unit to run on Natural Gas (natural gas well on the property). I'll probably install a 15kw unit. It will meet my needs, maybe even for an EV.

A friend of mine installed his transfer switch between the main panel and remote garage panel. Then he ran circuits from the garage panel to the furnace, fridge, and freezers. No need to disconnect power or pull permits. It safeguards his house when he's gone in the winter.

 

[dieseldonato]

Not trying to go too far off the rails, but the worst rental I've ever been in was a chevy aveo. Drove it back from up state New York when the companies van puked the transmission. (Long story, i wont get into.) Worst vehicle I've every driven. At 65mph a light breeze was enough to push it all over the road, much faster and it felt like it was going to shake itself apart. Every car thay passed pushed it all over. Only redeeming quality was it was very easy on fuel. I'd bet if I hit a bird it would have totaled that thing.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

I've been sitting here reading these comments while letting my gasoline generator run. I've not had it started in over a year. I had to clean the carburetor. It's now purring like a kitten. I'm letting it power a 1500 watt electric heater in the basement to not let all that energy go to waste.It is not like one of those automatic Generac propane or natural gas powered units that kicks-on once a week for a dry run. Maybe in the future, there will be economical "compact" storage batteries available to get us through when the local electric service goes down due to weather related invents or whatever.

Anyway, my point is, many of us are waiting on the technology to improve and not burden us at the same time. Consumers will venture in as we've seen with the early Prius and other hybrids. Seems those first Prius hybrids were introduced to North America about 25 years ago. Practically all of them have been rolling billboards with loads of bumper/window stickers. As EVs have made inroads, I suppose we can say they're improving. As has been stated, access to a charging station is going to be an obstacle for some time to come, especially to those apartment dwellers as has been mentioned. A couple of days ago, I noticed a charging station at the local Pilot station that I did not know existed. I suppose there is an app for locating them. I've seen two solar powered charging stations within a 75 mile radius of my home, both put up by gov'ment agencies

The best app for locating chargers is PlugShare. Though most EVs have a version built into their nav systems:

 

[El Dobro]

I use Plugshare and now that Tesla opened up the Superchargers, they also show up on my MyChevrolet app.

 

[d24tdi]

The majority of people still live in single family homes, owned or rented. I would rather not any attention or funds be shifted from developing a reliable network of highway chargers. By the time that network is completed used EVs will be available for apartment tenants in large numbers and demand will push apartment and condo owners towards a solution. For the next several years apartment dwellers, whose traffic patterns are not suitable for diesels, would be better off with a hybrid. From a carbon or pollution standpoint it would be hard to beat a Prius no matter how soul sucking they are.

Sorry, but we disagree there. I think folks in a group like this, owning vehicles that are optimized for long distance driving, are disproportionately likely to be in living situations that involve driving long distances... it's a skewed population and an echo chamber. As a result it may be easy to forget, or underestimate, just what a huge proportion of the working/commuting population lives in some kind of housing situation other than a modern-build single-family home that they own and fully control and that has a garage and/or driveway. Someone living in a high-rise apartment is not the only non-viable situation -- any person/family living in a duplex, or condo, or student/employee housing, or trailer court, or a rented single-family home, or even a homeowner living in an older construction house without a driveway/garage (my own house fits that example) -- would all be examples of situations that are currently locked out of EV ownership regardless of whether it might be attractive or logical for them, because they are situations where the resident doesn't have the ability to install or access EV charging on their own property. They would be dependent on public charging infrastructure, which currently exists more or less only in commercial areas and at nowhere near the needed concentration.

Keep in mind too: it may be true that a significant portion of the total population uses single-family detached housing that they are the owner of, as you argued. For those folks, an EV may or may not make sense, and for it to work out, long range (and as a result, a large battery requiring a large amount of materials to manufacture) would probably be necessary. But when you consider the pool of folks for whom an EV might actually be an overwhelmingly logical, practical choice as an alternative to an ICE vehicle (I mean instead of an ideological or luxury/performative choice), the lifestyles and usage patterns of people who live in rented or non-detached housing situations are far more likely to be logical candidates for a good fit with EV operating characteristics. Thus, IMO that is the population that should be the priority focus for optimizing EV opportunities. These are often people who spend a lot of time in traffic jams, rarely make trips of greater than a few dozen miles, rarely need to haul a large load or tow a trailer, etc. Currently they drive a 20-year-old Corolla or CR-V or whatever, or maybe a Prius. They have no interest in automotive technology whatsoever except as a transportation appliance, but they don't want to ride public transport, or can't for whatever reason. Let's say their pattern is to drive a few miles to drop a kid at daycare or school, then head to their first minimum wage job, then pick up the kid and take her to Grandma's, then head to their other minimum wage job or perhaps do a few hours of driving for Uber or DoorDash... All within a couple dozen miles' total max distance, probably in heavy stop and go traffic with lots of idle time, but no way to do it other than in a personal car.

Yeah, there are a TON of people who live lives like this -- a massive percentage of the total population, again even if those who live in sparsely populated areas never see it. And a LOT of the vehicle miles driven and gasoline gallons consumed in this country are patterns like this -- something I think is easy to forget for those who live lives that are easier. Folks like this often also are operating hand-to-mouth financially, will never be able to afford a detached home that they own and can park and charge in the driveway or garage of, and spend a disproportionate amount of their income buying gasoline and repairs for that 20yo Corolla. For them, an inexpensive short-range EV makes sense on every level: operating cost, ease of maintenance, simplicity, reliability. Nobody would have to incentivize them to buy one, or pay them a tax credit. It would be compelling on its own...... IF they had easy and highly dependable/predictable ability to plug it in wherever they live and wherever they travel to, at a reasonable price.

Yeah, there will be inexpensive used EVs out there. In fact there already are. You can buy an old LEAF for peanuts in most large urban areas. But it's not the acquisition cost that makes the difference here. What use is a cheap used EV to an apartment dweller who can't charge it? I don't buy it that the infrastructure will "follow" -- it will have to be the other way around, because the folks who could buy and use these EVs and replace ICE vehicles with them aren't in a position to take the leap until they can see it's safe and practical to do so, meaning the solutions are already there and ready to go, like the gas station down the street is. If we want it to be an option for folks, those who control property and rules and capital will need to make proactive decisions.

Curbside charging stations can't sell snacks and beer and cigarettes. That's the profit model for gas stations, as we all know. It's true that the existence of ICE vehicles created a demand for fueling stations that could be profitable but that organic approach won't work for EV charging, as experience proves. Until/unless there's a profit model for EV charging that draws property owners and utilities in to offer it, charging will always be the obstacle, IMO.

My overall perspective: I don't want to ever have to drive an EV. In my dream world, I could continue driving diesel and gas vehicles made roughly from the mid '90s to the mid '00s until the end of time, with access to parts and fuel to keep them going. BUT I do want as many OTHER people to drive EVs as possible, because the problems EVs are capable of helping solve are real, IF the EVs that are built and introduced are sensible and not absurd (by that I mean, more short-range cars like the old e-Golf and fewer Cybertrucks, which are at least as wasteful of resources as someone commuting in a F-250 PSD instead of a Golf TDI). I figure the more other folks who don't care about their vehicle choice can make the shift in a way that is sensible and personally benefits them, the less there will be a need to "force" it with incentives and regulations, which might improve the chances for those of us who do like to drive something interesting to be able to make our own choices.

The focus on extreme-long-range, large/heavy/luxurious EVs that are only affordable as toys for rich folks, and the optimization of highway charging access for their leisure road trips that the general driving population will never even see or use, is a path I can't see ever leading to success. Used, depreciated Cybertrucks and Model S's with huge and expensive to replace battery systems also won't be suitable for the general population in the future any more than a used ICE luxury vehicle like an S-Class Mercedes or Phaeton is versus a used Corolla today, for the average owner who is looking at total cost of ownership.

 

[ZippyNH]

Frankly I find it amazing how many EV lovers are disconnected from the economics of their choices and expectations. They buy them to show them off for social credit of sorts in their circles the come here to push their views. Why else go on a diesel forum and try to promote them?! Because they are trying to save the world
Most of the people who are pushing them in this thread must be real fun to be around

 

[gulfcoastguy]

I owned a diesel. VW had to buy it back due to emissions fraud.
As to funding charging in the East and West coast anthills, they already have claimed the lion’s share of it. As the previous poster stated apartment dwellers are less likely to be able to afford to purchase EVs or any new vehicle period. That’s like funding more buses when most of the buses are nearly empty.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

Btw there are plenty of sub forums specifically for diesels on this platform. This sub forum is specifically titled General Automotive and the thread is titled Who Is Going to a Tesla After TDI.