Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

[tikal]

At least BeetleGo did say goodbye.

BeetleGo should come back and tell us how that Tesla Model Y is doing.

From time to time, I've seen old familiar user names here and wonder what they've been doing. Then, when I cursor over their name I see they've not visited the TDI Club in months and many cases for years.

Anyway, I have run the numbers on buying and owning an EV. I could not justify owning one. I have driven a Hybrid and liked it but not enough to buy one.

After I retired in '08. I built a small garage mostly with the intent of working on my farm implements, mowers, etc. I began doing maintenance on a few TDIs (mostly ALH, BEW & BRM) as the months and years unfolded.

Interestingly, an '01 Jetta that I've maintained since it had 180k miles on it is now at 475k. I did a TB job on it at 465k about a year ago. Anyway, I did some liberal estimates on the total cost of that vehicle and come up with about $77k. This number includes everything I could think of from original cost to fuel, tires, batteries, tax, insurance, etc. That translates to a little over $0.165 per mile (16.5 cents) at 465k miles. That's impressive to me.

So, I don't think EV owner's will be keeping them until they reach 450k miles. And, I don't think they'll ever be able to drive for 17 cents per mile.

Thoughts?

I still find it odd to compare a TDI to an EV. Something akin to comparing apples and coconuts in my view. TDIs are the king of the road and very well suited for North America long distances and highway system, while EVs, in their current configuration and technology maturity, are much more suitable for city, stop-and-go driving. Once we get competitively priced EVs that have a range of 300 miles, even after 100k miles on them, charge from empty to 80% in about what it takes to have a restroom break (~10 minutes) and the on-the-highway charging network is adequate, then the previously ill-forcasted exponential EV growth will have a chance to materialize.

 

[Mozambiquer]

Okay okay... I see all the alternator charging system talk and have to stop by...
The majority of modern cars use a computerized charging system, it consists of some sort of battery control module, a battery current sensor, sometimes a battery temperature sensor, and a LIN controlled alternator.
It's slightly more complicated than the older style alternators, but they do use it for a reason. One is to be able to modify when the alternator charges more or less, which helps with drag, for power or fuel economy, but the other one is for electrical needs and for battery life. It will, in most cases modify the electrical voltage and amperage depending on the age of the battery and the temperature. With the lithium or AGM batteries, that is very important for battery life, and in some cases safety.
Battery coding basically tells the car there is a new battery that has been installed, so it will charge it like a new battery. The car will run and work just fine without coding it, but the battery life will often be shorter.
The only VW TDIs that came with that are the V6 TDI Touareg, and the 2015 Golf and Sportwagen TDI.
It's actually more efficient, and is just as reliable as the old style, it's just more advanced. Like it or not, vehicle technology keeps getting more and more advanced.

 

[AndyBees]

@turbodieseldyke, I agree.

However, the new "stuff" is upon us. There's no doubt about it.

But, as I've tried to say, if engineers can design a battery management system that recognizes that a battery is old and tired that the same system should be designed to recognize a new battery without having to go to the Stealership. Period.

It is my understanding that if the "system" is not programmed (coded, whatever the term is) that the charging system will over-charge the battery, thus shorten it's life. Also, it is my understanding if the "system" is not programmed there will be some sort of annoying light come on in the cluster. Maybe those in the know can clarify if I am wrong about a light in the cluster.

LIN was developed by several different automotive manufacturers in Europe in the 1990s. The LIN protocol was later standardized by the International Organization for Standardization (ISO) as ISO 17897. (Yes, I've been researching.) My familiarity with ISO comes from conversations with my brother and research. He was a team leader with meeting ISO standards of electronic test equipment when he worked at Lucent Technologies.

Further, from my research, "LIN is primarily used in the automotive industry for communication between various electronic components within a vehicle due to its low cost and simplicity."

Below is a link to a Texas Instrument abstract about LIN (Local Interconnect Network) [definitely above my pay grade].

https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slla383a/slla383a.pdf?ts=1735807708707#:~:text=The%20LIN%20bus%20and%20LIN,go%20up%20to%2024%20V

.

 

[oilhammer]

I'd like to point out, as someone who has been in the automotive service industry for decades, that "newer" doesn't always equate to "better". Sometimes it just means "different", and often times it ends up meaning "worse", depending on how you look at it.

Over the years, I think back on some things we thought were garbage at the time (specific components, designs in general, a specific model car, or brand, or whatever), and think today that they really were not as bad as we thought at the time.

Sure, GM automatics were always in need of attention, but a TH350 could be R&R'd in 30 minutes by a guy with at best a 6th grade education, and rebuilt by some dude named Bubba who always had eyes on his neighbor's daughter, who also happened to be his niece, and for less than $800 and maybe a case of Coors, you're battle hardened '75 Impala was back in business toting your mullet topped wallet chain wearing loser ass back to the trailer park. Today, it's a home equity loan to R&R and rebuild the 6L80E in your Silverado (which is what you HAVE to drive, because Chevy stopped putting V8s in RWD Impalas 30 years ago, and your teeny peeny ego won't let you drive a Malibu, let alone one a them "for'n" cars).

 

[gearheadgrrrl]

It's the season of hand wringing by auto execs over why not enough people love their new trucks and too few cars to buy them, as the industry is stuck at a miserable not even 16 million sales that would have been a good year 40 years ago when the U.S. market had half as many drivers. And while new ones trickle off the lots, America's 200 million odd drivers are hoarding 290 million cars... You'd think these execs and the politicians would figure out "why?" but many of them weren't chosen for their wisdom.

IBW is probably right that the A4 was probably peak H2O VW, I like my Golf 8 but it's major improvement over my Golf 4 is that it ain't rusted out yet. I've got the hots for a Golf 8R hot rod, but with 4/7th the warranty of the last Golf 7s it's a 4 year throwaway and hopefully the OEM battery makes it that long. So maybe EPA and VW did us a favor but cutting us off in 2015... But 10 years on this diesel fueled forum is busy as ever. Seems like rust is the automaker's best salesman, and a decade from now we'll be swapping TDI engines into rust free and dirt cheap Golf 8s!

 

[jmodge]

"SMART" no longer is as simple as being able to smell a fart in the dark

 

[kjclow]

Never say never. After the last two POS TDIs I owned, I figured there must be something else out there. I tried hybrids, then worked my way up to EREVs. Finally, I tried out EVs, first used, then new. I bought my last gallon of gas for a car, on Oct. 15, 2018 and never looked back.

I bought my last gallon of gasoline in March of 2018. That's when the Ram Ecodiesel came into my driveway. No more gassers for me since then. As we look at replacing the JSW, we can't justify an all electric as it will be used from time to time to tour coast to coast if we don't feel like taking the truck. We're currently looking at hybrids so we can at least keep the mpg similar to the JSW.

 

[kjclow]

TSLA's software isn't that smart, there's a video of a TSLA pickup having serious trouble getting up a trail that an F150 Lightning flew right up.

my favorite part of that video is when they pull the rear bumper off the tesla pickup trying to pull the f250 off after getting it high sided.

 

[AndyBees]

Ram Ecodiesel came into my driveway. No more gassers for me since then.

So, how is that Ecodiesel holding up? If I remember correctly, there have been problems with that engine and poor Dealership support.
Tell me if I am wrong.

 

[bigsexyTDI]

So, how is that Ecodiesel holding up? If I remember correctly, there have been problems with that engine and poor Dealership support.
Tell me if I am wrong.

I won't speak for him, but from what i have read it's basically the same as a VW... delete early and keep it as far away from the dealer as you can and then maintain it properly and it will be just fine...

 

[oilhammer]

I've heard horror stories about them. But don't have any first hand experience with them, other than we had one that needed a thermostat.

 

[dieseldonato]

I have some off hand (second) experience with one. Friend if a friend got one, first year they came out. (it was a 2014 or 2015) He drive a lot for work as a site manager, and was often required to tow/haul things they needed/forgot. Never anything super big or heavy. Like light towers, compressors, etc. It was constantly at the dealership with engine issues. Something with the cam gear first, then he had bearing issues, then the oil cooler, he was down in Texas and had the hpfp go out. He traded it with under 50k miles on it. He got at least 2 engines replaced under warranty.
Basically told me to stay the f**k away from them.

 

[AndyBees]

@dieseldonato Yes, just what you said is what I've heard as well.

I have also heard with conservative driving, the Ecodiesel will get 27-28 MPGs ...... Too bad that the engine is not dependable.

I come very close buying a 2015 model at a very good price and low miles about two years ago. I discussed it with a friend who is pretty savvy when it comes to knowing the latest on many vehicles. He said almost the same thing, "stay the h*ll away from any Ram EcoDiesel. And, as I understand, it is not a Cummins Diesel engine." Seems he said it either come from Europe or was made by a European company located here in North America. I never researched anything about them. I just took his word as fact.

 

[oilhammer]

It is a VM Motori engine, which is a company owned by Fiat, and was originally designed with GM in mind as it was supposed to go under the hood of a Cadillac CTS, but GM bailed on it. This GM-Fiat deal was while ChryCo was still owned by MB. MB was going to put one of their [far superior] engines in the pickups, same as they already had with the Jeep Grand Cherokee. But it didn't happen, and when Fiat took over ChryCo, and they were losing much of the MB stuff (although the legacy Charger platform just recently finally went away), they pulled the mothballed VM V6 out and stuck it in both the Jeep and the Ram. And since it was originally intended for a luxury car brand, it was a pretty refined engine, but like so many things it likely got bean countered pretty hard, and probably the draconian regulatory burdens didn't help.

Kind of a shame, because they run great. So do the 3.0L V6 diesels MB has, so do the 3.0L V6 diesels VAG has, so does the 3.0L V6 diesel Ford has, and so does the I6 BMW has (theirs REALLY run good). But aside from the MB, and just in the big Sprinters, we cannot buy any of them here any more.

 

[pedroYUL]

To answer the original question of the thread: not me!

Not because I don't care about the environment, or I'm all drill baby drill, but because I once was forced by Avis to take a model 3...worst POS ever! It felt like driving an old NES...yes, like an entertainment system. Those cars are not for drivers at all, they were designed by overpaid computer programmers that wish the car would drive itself.

 

[Sting]

To be honest, EVs don't excite me at all. I'm sure you have seen that Jeremy Clarkson clip where he waxes on EVs and that they will never be like ICE cars, which they never will be. They are boring and killing car culture. EVs are just a conveyance, that's all. They are basically the same, in different skins.

Plus I love driving a manual transmission. I plan on keeping my VW going as long as possible.

 

[d24tdi]

Okay okay... I see all the alternator charging system talk and have to stop by...
The majority of modern cars use a computerized charging system, it consists of some sort of battery control module, a battery current sensor, sometimes a battery temperature sensor, and a LIN controlled alternator.
It's slightly more complicated than the older style alternators, but they do use it for a reason. One is to be able to modify when the alternator charges more or less, which helps with drag, for power or fuel economy, but the other one is for electrical needs and for battery life. It will, in most cases modify the electrical voltage and amperage depending on the age of the battery and the temperature. With the lithium or AGM batteries, that is very important for battery life, and in some cases safety.
Battery coding basically tells the car there is a new battery that has been installed, so it will charge it like a new battery. The car will run and work just fine without coding it, but the battery life will often be shorter.
The only VW TDIs that came with that are the V6 TDI Touareg, and the 2015 Golf and Sportwagen TDI.
It's actually more efficient, and is just as reliable as the old style, it's just more advanced. Like it or not, vehicle technology keeps getting more and more advanced.

Interesting explanation, thanks for it.

FWIW, Volvo in the mid '80s on their 740 and 760 Turbodiesel cars was already experimenting with a system like this.... There was a temperature sensor stuffed into the bottom of the battery tray that fed back to a 2-pin connector on the backside of the voltage regulator in the alternator and was supposed to influence charging voltage output based on battery temp. Obviously it had no way to account for the age of the battery but at least it was a primitive attempt to optimize for temp. Whether or not it worked when new to improve battery performance or lifespan, I don't know.... Eventually the fancy temp-controlled regulators went NLA and the move was to just replace with a standard style Bosch VR which dropped in the same way, and forget about the sensor in the battery tray. Those of us who were playing with those cars also never were sure what the failure mode would be if the sensor or its wiring went bad far from home -- would it undercharge or overcharge? Obviously there was no OBD capability in there, nor any way for the system to warn the driver in the event of a failure unless you stuck a voltmeter on the dash, which the diesels didn't come with from the factory. So for the sake of reliability we just converted them back to standard style proactively.

In principle I can see why they went to the effort though. Interestingly I believe only their diesel models got this tech, don't think the gas cars ever had it in that time period. I imagine the focus was on giving the cars the best possible shot at easy cold weather starting, maybe taking into account owner usage that could involve short trips too and frequent glow/crank events so big stress on the battery.

Every time one of those 6cyl EcoDiesel Rams drives past me I think how nice that engine sounds. Same with the V6 Touaregs and Audis, and the newer MB and BMW diesels. I get tempted but unfortunately they all have enough horror stories that the safe move feels like staying away. Not sure about the V6 in the F150s and LR trucks, haven't heard as much about them but my sense is they did not sell many of them here so reasonable to fear they'll be parts orphans sooner or later. The Ram EcoDiesel trucks seem a lot more prevalent despite all their problems.

 

[d24tdi]

Adding to the original question -- like others, I just don't think EVs now (maybe ever?) make much sense for the long distance driving environment that a TDI excels at. Optimizing an EV for long range and extreme performance seems foolish to me as well since it is wasteful of scarce battery construction resources and requires longer charging times to replenish. I think the whole industry has been aiming for the wrong thing all the time.... Keep your eye on the 99.9999% use case of most drivers, which is trips of 1 to 10 miles, and build lightweight short range EV's with that use in mind, and then provide plenty of well-maintained and accessible charging locations, including in places where those who live in apartments and park on the curb can use them easily. Every parking meter and street sign and fire hydrant in a city or suburb should have an EV charging plug coming out of it if EV usage is really intended to work. Then, take all the resources that you were going to use to make the battery that's capable of pushing a Rivian or Cybertruck through the air for 300+ miles, and instead build FOUR or more normal size, lightweight 100-mile-range vehicles that cost a fraction as much and serve the real-world needs of Civic and Prius drivers in urban commutes rather than someone wanting to tow their Airstream across the country on battery power.

And then keep a reasonable option out there of liquid-fueled vehicles that are appropriate for those of us who put on the long distance miles or unusual usage scenarios. My commute is 125 miles each way, over 2 mountain passes each direction, sometimes in 110F heat, sometimes in -35F cold. Sometimes there's a wreck in the winter and you're stuck waiting in a traffic jam for 6 hours while they clear it. I will never trust an EV for this kind of use. An older TDI rules for this and probably will go down in history as the all time best solution to this problem before or since.

BUT just before Christmas our only gasoline-powered car (I do have a couple gasser pickups), a very well maintained 1999 Honda Accord that we have used for short trips in town and is the daily office commuter of my SO (1.5 miles each way), got crushed by a tree in a windstorm. So as we try to figure out how to replace it, I can see the logic of a used short range EV like a LEAF, i3, e-Golf, etc.

In other words, I envision a good role for one as one tool in an automotive toolbox for a person or family that has various transportation needs and can have multiple vehicles that are each optimized for different scenarios -- long distance vs local use.

But as a replacement for a TDI, I don't get it when people do this. The things a TDI is best at, an EV is worst at, and vice versa. As a replacement for a Prius or Civic owned by a city or suburb driver, coupled with 100 times the charging opportunities that currently exist, I do see it.

 

[d24tdi]

Another interesting note to add -- my brother works in electrical grid development and renewable energy sourcing and is a major proponent of the EV transition. He and his wife talk all the time about trading in their 2012 WRX on an EV, which would make perfect sense given their position on it. But they haven't done it yet. Why? Like many potential EV owners, they live in a city apartment and there is no easy or reasonable charging solution available to them. So even though everything about their transportation needs and uses is perfect for switching from a gas-burner to an EV, AND they have a strong philosophical interest in moving to an EV, they haven't done it and I doubt they will any time soon.

Once the manufacturers and regulators figure out the mismatch here -- the fact that a large number of the most well suited owners of an EV CANNOT OWN ONE BECAUSE THEY DON'T LIVE IN A HOUSE WITH A GARAGE AND A DRIVEWAY -- the situation will start to make a lot more sense and the manufacturers will be able to market reasonably priced, reasonably sized, reasonable range EVs to folks who actually will benefit from an EV, rather than rich guys wanting the next coolest thing from Tesla or Rivian or Lucid to park in their driveway. Take all the energy being put towards increasing battery range and decreasing charging times, and instead put it towards overcoming the zoning/regulatory/property ownership/etc hurdles that stand in the way of putting abundant chargers everywhere. And create a revenue model for utilities supplying power to charging stations that's still affordable for vehicle owners but gives a financial incentive to expand charging access. Charity and government pushes and grants from the Dieselgate settlement alone won't do it.

 

[ZippyNH]

To answer the original question of the thread: not me!

Not because I don't care about the environment, or I'm all drill baby drill, but because I once was forced by Avis to take a model 3...worst POS ever! It felt like driving an old NES...yes, like an entertainment system. Those cars are not for drivers at all, they were designed by overpaid computer programmers that wish the car would drive itself.

Remember my first Prius on a business trip...
Reminded me of a toaster, an appliance...just a tool to do a job...but no redeeming qualities.
Sure, they have gotten better with each generation but still, wasn't a driver's car.

 

[gulfcoastguy]

The majority of people still live in single family homes, owned or rented. I would rather not any attention or funds be shifted from developing a reliable network of highway chargers. By the time that network is completed used EVs will be available for apartment tenants in large numbers and demand will push apartment and condo owners towards a solution. For the next several years apartment dwellers, whose traffic patterns are not suitable for diesels, would be better off with a hybrid. From a carbon or pollution standpoint it would be hard to beat a Prius no matter how soul sucking they are.

 

[ZippyNH]

Think many people on this site going to EV's are doing so not because they dislike gas/diesel but because of lifestyle changes...
Average age here for a LARGE percentage of drivers are retired plus, and they no longer do regular long drives, and modern diesels have issues with short tripping.

 

[pedroYUL]

Remember my first Prius on a business trip...
Reminded me of a toaster, an appliance...just a tool to do a job...but no redeeming qualities.
Sure, they have gotten better with each generation but still, wasn't a driver's car.

I would drive a Prius on the daily, but not a silly Tesla. Actually, I think the first and only time I've driven a Prius was in a rental. I was impressed by when the time to refill came a week or so later.

 

[oilhammer]

No Prius has ever impressed me.

 

[ZippyNH]

No Prius has ever impressed me.

Especially the gen1 that they somehow classified as a midsize even though it was smaller than Corolla to make the fuel economy look better.....
Newer ones have gotten better...but still, like many modern cars, the the use of electronics are almost a sin engineers try to use them to make up for poor engineering.
Look at modern cars failing the "moose" test, etc...only so much differential braking etc can make-up for excessive weight, poor CG and poor geometry.... ideally the car should be well tuned, optimized, THEN have these high technology added to make them better.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

I test drove a Gen 1 Prius when I bought IBW. It had difficulty holding 75 MPH with just me in the car. And it felt like a crappy economy car. I've owned a lot of Toyotas, and in general liked them, but not that one.

Driving to work this morning I was behind a Mustang Mach E for a bit. It caught my eye because the rear of the car was bobbing around like the shocks were shot, even though it looked pretty new. I guess they may have trouble controlling all that mass. But while I was looking at it I was thinking what a stupid concept it is. I drove my GSW today because IBW was nearly out of fuel and I didn't want to take the time to fill it on the way to work. But I've been 760 miles on the current tank. I can't imagine having to think about doing that every day, or worrying about whether or not I can go somewhere because I might not have enough range. It's been cold here this week and I bet something like that Mach E has about 150 miles of range if you indulge in using the cabin heat.

 

[AndyBees]

I've been sitting here reading these comments while letting my gasoline generator run. I've not had it started in over a year. I had to clean the carburetor. It's now purring like a kitten. I'm letting it power a 1500 watt electric heater in the basement to not let all that energy go to waste.It is not like one of those automatic Generac propane or natural gas powered units that kicks-on once a week for a dry run. Maybe in the future, there will be economical "compact" storage batteries available to get us through when the local electric service goes down due to weather related invents or whatever.

Anyway, my point is, many of us are waiting on the technology to improve and not burden us at the same time. Consumers will venture in as we've seen with the early Prius and other hybrids. Seems those first Prius hybrids were introduced to North America about 25 years ago. Practically all of them have been rolling billboards with loads of bumper/window stickers. As EVs have made inroads, I suppose we can say they're improving. As has been stated, access to a charging station is going to be an obstacle for some time to come, especially to those apartment dwellers as has been mentioned. A couple of days ago, I noticed a charging station at the local Pilot station that I did not know existed. I suppose there is an app for locating them. I've seen two solar powered charging stations within a 75 mile radius of my home, both put up by gov'ment agencies (Tennessee Valley Authority and Tennessee State Parks). I suspect those have huge storage batteries located below ground.

As I may have stated, I've driven a Gasoline Hybrid and was impressed.

Side note: I have just recently retrofit the wiring in my house to set-up for a Generac unit to run on Natural Gas (natural gas well on the property). I'll probably install a 15kw unit. It will meet my needs, maybe even for an EV.

 

[kjclow]

So, how is that Ecodiesel holding up? If I remember correctly, there have been problems with that engine and poor Dealership support.
Tell me if I am wrong.

So far, the DPF service at 100k was the only thing out of the ordinary. The full 100k services were kind of expensive and eye opening but nothing that wasn't ram/diesel specific. It's kind of like my JSW. I know others have had issues and I keep anticipating problems but I just keep pushing forward.

Took the truck from NC to IA over New Years to move my mom into assisted living. Bucked some massive headwinds on the way there so only made about 18 mpg on the interstate. Coming back, had a 6x12 u-haul full of furniture for the kids to fight (?) over and mpg dropped to just over 16. Summer trips, I could usually keep it in the mid 20s. My biggest self-abuse issue was running into a light support in the hotel parking lot. At first, I thought it was just a few small dents but today I noticed that the left side of the front bumper is pushed in further than it's supposed to be. Oh crap!

 

[kjclow]

Remember my first Prius on a business trip...
Reminded me of a toaster, an appliance...just a tool to do a job...but no redeeming qualities.
Sure, they have gotten better with each generation but still, wasn't a driver's car.

My first prius on a business trip was in mid NY state in middle of Jan. I think the high of the day was -15F. The tanker truck that I was supposed to meet at the customer was 4 hours late because he shut his truck off overnight and did not plug in. Took him that long to find someone willing and able to get him running. As far as I know, my prius never ran off the batteries and stayed on the gas engine the whole time I had it. It was also one of the worst handling front wheel drive cars I've ever tried to drive on frozen crap.

 

[jmodge]

I've been sitting here reading these comments while letting my gasoline generator run. I've not had it started in over a year. I had to clean the carburetor. It's now purring like a kitten. I'm letting it power a 1500 watt electric heater in the basement to not let all that energy go to waste.It is not like one of those automatic Generac propane or natural gas powered units that kicks-on once a week for a dry run. Maybe in the future, there will be economical to own "compact" storage batteries available to get us through when the local electric service goes down due to weather related invents or whatever.

Anyway, my point is, many of us are waiting on the technology to improve and not burden us at the same time. Consumers will venture in as we've seen with the early Prius and other hybrids. Seems those first Prius hybrids were introduced to North America about 25 years ago. Practically all of them have been rolling billboards with loads of bumper/window stickers. As EVs have made inroads, I suppose we can say they're improving. As has been stated, access to a charging station is going to be an obstacle for some time to come, especially to those apartment dwellers as has been mentioned. A couple of days ago, I noticed a charging station at the local Pilot station that I did not know existed. I suppose there is an app for locating them. I've seen two solar powered charging stations within a 75 mile radius of my home, both put up by gov'ment agencies (Tennessee Valley Authority and Tennessee State Parks). I suspect those have huge storage batteries located below ground.

As I may have stated, I've driven a Gasoline Hybrid and was impressed.

Side note: I have just recently retrofit the wiring in my house to set-up for a Generac unit to run on Natural Gas (natural gas well on the property). I'll probably install a 15kw unit. It will meet my needs, maybe even for an EV.

A friend of mine installed his transfer switch between the main panel and remote garage panel. Then he ran circuits from the garage panel to the furnace, fridge, and freezers. No need to disconnect power or pull permits. It safeguards his house when he's gone in the winter.