Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

BamaB4S

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Every mining operation has environmental impacts. Nickel is no different. Aside from that, nickel free LFP batteries will probably dominate the market in the years ahead. Oil and gas exploration, refining, and use has it's own very serious impact on the environment and our health.
 

Poor King

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... Monetizing delusions of grandeur whilst ignoring the conditional errors of habitual homosapes? Thats not what we do is sell false narratives, perplexing tears of greatness which we cry.


Btw you no longer get to eat my lunch- https://electrek.co/2021/08/11/us-senate-40000-limit-price-electric-cars-ev-tax-credit/
 
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turbobrick240

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It's pretty difficult to accept that guys "math" as unbiased when he clearly expresses the opinion that the local food movement and the EV market is all about liberals virtue signaling. The dude probably has a bunker full of canned green beans he bought at Walmart. Not a credible source, imo.
 

turbobrick240

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The amendment that Deb Fischer pushed to cap EV price at $40k doesn't really mean anything yet. That would apply to the old $7500 incentive program which is about to get completely overhauled anyhow. All it really does is signal that there is interest in a EV incentive lprice cap in DC. Like the author, I think a $55-60k cap makes sense. After all, the program is intended to encourage EV ownership, not as another safety net for low income households.
 

kjclow

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However, if you can't get the low income households to switch over to electric, then you're missing the majority of the market. From the experience of my kids, they will probably buy used and pick up someone else's issues. Such as reduced battery life and therefore reduced range. They will also have to figure out how and when to charge. One just moved into a new townhome with no electric charging facalities close to them. The costs of adding to their garage would keep an electric vehicle out of contention, for now. The other is renting a small house with no garage or carport. Unless she has charging at work, electric only is a no go. (Pun inteded)
 

taleAwaggin

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I had assumed @ a constant 45mph towing a flat trailer with flat sheets of lead ballast resulting in nine feet of total frontal area for the trailer rig..

Its not that the tech level isn't there to build something that can go 500 at 14k. The problem is they would have to market it at $450k. And a fuel F450 doesn't cost 450..
 

turbobrick240

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Capping the incentive arbitrarily isn't going to help those low income households in any way, though. It would just serve to penalize the middle and upper income households that want to buy a new, high quality EV. There is plenty of safety net funding in the remainder of the $3.5T spending package.
 

Mozambiquer

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It's pretty difficult to accept that guys "math" as unbiased when he clearly expresses the opinion that the local food movement and the EV market is all about liberals virtue signaling. The dude probably has a bunker full of canned green beans he bought at Walmart. Not a credible source, imo.
Probably not unbiased, but has some good points that none of the people biased in the opposite direction are taking about. I'm biased as well, as is everyone else.
 

turbobrick240

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Probably not unbiased, but has some good points that none of the people biased in the opposite direction are taking about. I'm biased as well, as is everyone else.
Absolutely. We are all biased. Which is why we should make an effort to get our news and information from neutral sources. But in the age of Facebook it's all too easy to segregate and isolate ourselves into groups of only like minded folks. And such groups easily become fertile breeding grounds for misinformation and even insane conspiracy theories.
 

Mozambiquer

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Absolutely. We are all biased. Which is why we should make an effort to get our news and information from neutral sources. But in the age of Facebook it's all too easy to segregate and isolate ourselves into groups of only like minded folks. And such groups easily become fertile breeding grounds for misinformation and even insane conspiracy theories.
Or get into from both sides. There are no completely unbiased news sources anymore, at least that I have seen. Personally I am not against electric vehicles, but I don't think I should be legislated to own one and also don't think electric is the one size fits all answer, like many politicians and activists seem to think. I can also see that issues such as the environmental impact of the extra mining and materials needed for electric vehicles (cobalt, lithium, copper, etc) are conveniently ignored by the same people, and bringing it up can get you called out for being a conspiracy theorist or redneck, or whatever other name.
 

kjclow

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Facebook? Pretty obvious THEY have a VERY biased agenda, LOL.

Two people can take in the same information and view it two completely different ways.
Which is why we compare notes after a sales call. It makes sure that we all heard and understood the samethings and assign follow up priorities.
 

compu_85

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I do not entertain in-dash (screen) units unless it has the option of blacking out the screen while continuing its functionality. A glaring screen is most annoying indeed.
Good news is on the Tesla you can turn the brightness way down, and the screen(s) get quite dim. It also changes the colors at night so the image is less bright to begin with.

-J
 

Daemon64

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Well, speaking from a household who is above the income limit, and my wife has been going back and forth between a Q4 full electric, and a golf R. Which after the credit would be in the same range of price... that puts the nail in the coffin of the Q4 if passed, and in 6 months I claim the tax credit on my PHEV, if I cannot do that, thats awful because I figured that into the price of purchasing the vehicle, and if you look at my signature... You will notice my mileage is WAY better than my TDI's 28.2, and most of that was break-in miles in auto-hybrid. Sure I could afford the BEV @55 - 60k, but if they kill the 7500 tax credit, we'll just buy the 43k gas powered vehicle thank you very much... Also if the Tax credit wasn't on the table I would never have even left my TDI.... a 6.7k lower cost can be a massive motivator for anyone. I would have just driven the diesel for 200k more miles, and not looked back at all.

And remind you for my wife we'll be replacing a car that averages 21MPG on a good day, so literally almost any vehicle would be much more environmentally friendly.
 
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turbobrick240

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And there are many thousands more potential EV buyers who would also buy another ICEV if the msrp is capped at $40k and income at $100k. Totally counterproductive. I can see a cap making it into the final incentive, but I very much doubt it will be the $40k/100k that has been proposed.
 

Poor King

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... 'nother way to look at it is: 40k cap allows lower income folks to get into a BEV with some sort of usability. Every option now are the size of golfs at best. Most manufacturers will now develop a full lineup of economical EV's under that prize range to target households of all incomes.

Imo any ICE vehicle over the 35k prize range is a luxury vehicle. This outlook should apply to EV's as well and with this cap in effect, it flattens the curve and creates a middle ground of attainable BEV's.
 

turbobrick240

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The average price of a new vehicle purchase is now ~$40k in the US. With the current constraints on battery supply, a $40k cap will promote compliance cars and hybrids over quality BEVs that give a pleasant ownership experience. For instance, many eGolf owners were so turned off by the extremely limited range of that compliance car that they went back to ICEVs. That's not what this incentive is aiming to achieve.
 

Poor King

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The eGolf is a 1st gen product. As the tech becomes more attainable and batts are homemade, that will change. There's a need for a proper BEV SUV at the 35K price-point with incentives; that's (imo) the way to get more people into converting.
 

turbobrick240

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I think the very lowest the cap should be is the avg new vehicle price($40k)+ the max amount of the incentive($12.5k), or $52.5k. The whole point of the program is to get more EVs on the road, not to create low range compliance cars that will leave a bad taste with consumers.
 

Poor King

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But the mandate suggests all (new purchase) vehicles by 2030 will be BEV/PHEV's operated. It's not what you'd like but that is what they are proposing to help the tax incentives stay where they belong.

Anyone who can afford a 50k luxury vehicle does not need an incentive-- the lower class needs the incentives to help them purchase vehicles otherwise unattainable to them; especially when they are paying taxes out of their pocket for that privilege. Those incentives are only redeemed by middle/high class consumers with the current market price of BEV's. Am I going in circles here because I thought this was covered pages ago 🙃
 

turbobrick240

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What 2030 mandate? The only US zero emission mandate I know of is in California only and for 2035. Many people buying $50k cars and trucks(trucks mostly) in my area are far from wealthy. It's not like the incentives on more expensive vehicles are taking money from the pockets of the poor. Quite the opposite actually. The funding is coming from unused covid stimulus and increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy. I suppose if you believe in the trickle down fallacy...
 

Poor King

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What 2030 mandate? The only US zero emission mandate I know of is in California only and for 2035.


I was talking about that initiative. While not a solidified mandate, it might as well be one with the insane bar set on ICE emissions standards moving forward.


Many people buying $50k cars and trucks(trucks mostly) in my area are far from wealthy. It's not like the incentives on more expensive vehicles are taking money from the pockets of the poor. Quite the opposite actually.
Another good read.




The funding is coming from unused covid stimulus and increasing taxes on corporations and the wealthy.
Can you provide citations to back this?

Nonetheless, you lost me there. I am a bit confused as to why consumers such as yourself are OK with paying 50k for a vehicle which in ICE variant would cost 30K especially when it is being forced onto us.

Pull up the stats on nationwide percentiles from rich-to-poor. The majority is poor and we need to permit ease to America's backbone in order for the EV industry to flourish. Well that is the commerce of profiting from EV's, I care more about the global aspect which everyone is surely insisting upon. I don't know where you live but it's getting hot out here...

I suppose if you believe in the trickle down fallacy...
The only fallacy I'd like to see come true is the one where EV adaptation begins with cruise/container ships, the airlines, commercial trucking, and all major factories -- maybe they need a grant of their own to accomplish this. Then have the tech trickle down to the mass and their public vehicles. I want to see the commercial stuff out of the way first. That is the only way I can make sense of such a vast undertaking.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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The good news (I guess) for people who don't want to spend $50K on an EV is that by 2030 there will be some used EVs around. How well they'll perform and what they'll cost to maintain are open questions, but they'll be out there.

Fact is, a lot of people who spend $50K on a car or truck shouldn't. They can't afford it, even though they think they can. But I don't suppose that's going to change.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
So long as banks will lend money.... I really don't understand the idea of borrowing a crap load of money to buy a DEpreciating asset, then pay interest for the "privilege" to do so, and doing this repeatedly until you die. But lots of people do just that. What is really crazy is when some of these new vehicle lose value so much right away, that they are upside down by in some cases tens of thousands of dollars for the first couple years.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I used to buy a new car every 5-7 years. Kept them longer than most, but would usually lease (work write-off) and then buy out the vehicle at the end of the lease term and keep it a few more years. And since buying my Wagon I've bought 3 new TDIs, two of which I sold, the third is my MK7. But even though I'm a life long car nut, my attitude towards how much I spend on cars have changed. I'd always said I wanted to own a Porsche 911 as a daily at some point, now I can't imagine it. Partly because they're now borderline supercars, but also because I think every time I drove it I'd think about what it was costing me in consumables and depreciation. That's no fun.
 

Daemon64

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So long as banks will lend money.... I really don't understand the idea of borrowing a crap load of money to buy a DEpreciating asset, then pay interest for the "privilege" to do so, and doing this repeatedly until you die. But lots of people do just that. What is really crazy is when some of these new vehicle lose value so much right away, that they are upside down by in some cases tens of thousands of dollars for the first couple years.
I've gone both routes buying used, and buying new. The problem with new is exactly what you stated. The problem with used is sometimes is difficult to know exactly what you're getting in a vehicle, and mind you I grew up work on cars wrenching on them starting at 7, with an auto-mech in the family teaching me everything through. I know you can check history, accident reports, supposed maintenance and etc... But sometimes someone says they did something on paper and it was never done... and there is a sweet spot for used cars where it makes sense and sometimes its just lunacy. So I've had great luck with "low" mileage VW/ Audi diesels -- my Q5 started at 48k, and my golf 60k... both ran well for the time that I had them. I had great luck with my 1998 Mazda B4000 w/ 232k miles on it when i purchased it in 2007, just did maintenance items, ball joints, 1 u-join, breaks tires, and the such truck was still running at 347k when we traded it in. I've had TERRIBLE luck with a 2001 civic ex w/ 223k miles put 4k in parts into that car in 1 year alone nevermind all the time to fix crap. My wife's 2011 WRX which started at 104k miles, and is currently at 156k miles has been a train wreck financially... we literally could have bought a brand new STI it would only have 50k miles on it... and we'd be AHEAD lets put it that way.

I guess what I'm saying is everyone's mileage will vary. But heres the thing to get that 2-4 year old car w/48-60k miles, someone has to take the hit on it, and now you down usable mileage.... I figure all cars as yearly cost of ownership including purchase price... My current Q5 is stupid financially, but had I bought like a Kia Forte, a Jetta, a Standard Tiguan, or etc... tons of different new cars the cost of ownership is way cheaper. Example: A friend just bought a Toyota Tacoma for 35k, he plans on selling it in 2 years and because of that vehicle it will only cost him a total of maybe 2k per year when all said and done.

Another is depending on the depreciation of the car .... So if you buy a Subaru or a Toyota Tacoma, just buy new. Buying used you save maybe 2-3k to now have 70k+ miles on the car, many other manufacturers depreciate much faster, from what I hear Tesla depreciation is similar but i don't really know....
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
I am fortunate as I get to buy LOTS of used cars from people that brought them to me for everything. I bought a 2004 Passat 4Mo 1.8t wagon from a customer just before it hit 200k miles... it is almost like I bought it new anyway, someone else just ran the numbers up in the odometer and paid for everything instead of me, LOL. Closing in on 250k now....

And I just bought a 2003 Jetta TDI sedan from another one. This one only has 132k on the clock. :D
 

turbobrick240

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Somebody has to buy new cars or there'd be no used cars. Anyhow, by 2030, EVs will be cheaper to purchase than an equivalent ICEV. I expect you'll be able to buy a ~$27k Tesla hatchback with ~300 miles of range by 2025. Along with a wide array of decent, affordable EVs from many other manufacturers.
 
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