Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

IndigoBlueWagon

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Anyone who drives on the track knows weight is the enemy. It's harder on suspension, brakes, and can make the car less responsive. That's partly why Audis aren't very good track day cars, they're too fat. The Tesla, or any EV, will have the same problem.
 

Scooby24

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It ain't that heavy. It weighs a couple hundred lbs more than others its size but the center of gravity is much lower. I've driven a model S and it was extremely impressive. I've competed in auto cross and HPDEs
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

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Car & Driver says the Model 3 weighs 4,072 lbs. A BMW M2 (not a light car) weighs 3,600 lbs. Nearly 500 lbs. is a big difference. And the BMW 230i, which reviewers universally say is a better steering and handling car on the track (despite its lower power), is 3,386 lbs, or nearly 700 lbs. less than the Tesla.
 
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turbobrick240

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The bimmers still eat Model 3 performance dust around Laguna Seca. It takes a Porsche Cayman GT4 to keep up.
 

Scooby24

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Comparing RWD coupes to AWD sedans to argue weight advantage?

The RWD model 3 is 3500 lbs but then you're still not comparing apples to apples.

As I said, the model 3 is not much heavier than other comparably sized vehicles and its other advantages will give it an edge at the track.

Can you point out a comparably sized vehicle with a comparable price that will beat it?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I'm not saying it's not quick. If you look back, the track reviews I've read are negative on body control and handling, not power or overall speed. Audi S4s are quick on the track, but drivers say they're not a lot of fun because they are heavy and understeer. The model 3 feeback is similar. That's all I was saying.

A Miata is a ton of fun on a track, but no one is going to call it fast.
 

turbobrick240

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I think a lot of that is related to suspension tuning on a four door family sedan. The model 3 is no lightweight, that's undeniable. Randy Pobst has been pretty complimentary is his descriptions of how the 3 handles on the track.
 

Rob Mayercik

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Long term, voice and/or steering wheel controls will likely replace all of the touch screen nonsense but it is not possible to logically argue that a set of radio knobs that can be fully operated without a single glance isn't orders of magnitude safer than navigating hierarchical view/touch menu systems.
^ This. Absolutely this.

I've driven plenty of late-model rental cars over the past couple years, and while the touchscreens for the radio/etc. weren't hard to figure out, I certainly couldn't have manipulated them by "muscle memory" like I can the physical buttons on my 02 TDI or my 92 Jeep.

It's like this absolutely idiotic trend of replacing transmission/transfer case shifters with bloody knobs. Heck, I'm not even a fan of what I think of as the "serpentine" shifters.

While I've not actually driven (or even been inside of) a Tesla, the first thought through my mind upon seeing no instrumentation/controls except that big touchscreen was "is this a car or an XBox on wheels?".

What's next, replacing the steering wheel and pedals with a game pad?
 

jackbombay

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Remember all the grumbling when buttons disappeared from cell phones? People are hardwired to resist change. This too shall pass.
Rotary dial phones are more reliable than those new fangled phones with buttons!

Anyone who drives on the track knows weight is the enemy. It's harder on suspension, brakes, and can make the car less responsive. That's partly why Audis aren't very good track day cars, they're too fat. The Tesla, or any EV, will have the same problem.
Brakes on the tesla don't get worked nearly as hard as a normal car.


Car & Driver says the Model 3 weighs 4,072 lbs. A BMW M2 (not a light car) weighs 3,600 lbs. Nearly 500 lbs. is a big difference. And the BMW 230i,
How much smaller are those cars than a model 3? About 10" shorter than a 3, and 5" narrower than a 3 according to google. Comparing compact cars to midsized cars doesn't mean much.
 

JDSwan87

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Brakes on the tesla don't get worked nearly as hard as a normal car.
While under normal driving conditions, I would tend to agree. However, under the track conditions that IBW is referencing, I feel the Tesla braking system would show it's flaws. Just my .02 ...
 

otty

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I am saving up for most likely a Tesla. Would love a cybertruck but not sure my Passat will last that long.

Probably a model 3, maybe a Hyundai Kona electric is how it looks right now...
 

turbobrick240

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Will the ID3 get competition from a German built Tesla hatchback?

Elon Musk said in the most recent Tesla earnings call that they need to make a more affordable model. There is speculation that this may take the form of a German designed and built small hatchback "Model 2": https://hypebeast.com/2020/7/elon-musk-tesla-expensive-cheaper-hatchback-model-plans-info

If this car materializes in the next couple of years, and is built at the amazingly rapidly constructed Berlin Gigafactory, I can see VW's ID3 facing stiff competition in Europe. I think they really need to build this small hatch and sell it in the $24-27k range. Perhaps with a slightly more expensive performance edition. I know I'd buy one.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Although you probably won't buy one, because the ID-3 is not coming here. And if Tesla builds a competing car, it most likely won't, either. Americans don't buy hatchbacks. :)
 

Lightflyer1

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I will probably never buy another new car again. At retirement age now and the stop sale 2015 Beetle should last quite a while. Barring an accident it may last the rest of my driving time left. If for some reason I need another car it will be a cheap used one, if they don't have driverless taxis by then.
 

turbobrick240

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Although you probably won't buy one, because the ID-3 is not coming here. And if Tesla builds a competing car, it most likely won't, either. Americans don't buy hatchbacks. :)

This American does. :) And I think more of our compatriots would if the right one came along. I'm still not convinced that we won't get the ID3 once VW has a few years to build out capacity. They'd sell enough to make it worthwhile.
 

vandermic07

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Im with Turbobrick. Id much rather buy hatchbacks. didnt even consider a sedan when we purchased our last car. In my opinion trunks are kinda dumb. i can hull a lot more in my golf and even more in the wagon and its easier to get stuff in and out. Great for road trips.
 
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USMCFieldMP

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I think what IBW is saying is that in general, hatches don't sell well in the US. I think that has changed a bit in recent years (note the shift in 2015 from Jetta to Golf), but it has generally been true.
US Jetta sales by year:
Code:
[LIST]
[*]2005	104,063
[*]2006	103,331
[*]2007	98,951
[*]2008	97,461
[*]2009	108,427
[*]2010	123,213
[*]2011	177,358
[*]2012	183,262
[*]2013	163,793
[*]2014	160,873
[*]2015	131,109
[*]2016	121,107
[*]2017	115,807
[*]2018	90,794
[*]2019	100,453
[*]2020	37,354
[/LIST]
US Golf sales per year:
Code:
[LIST]
[*]2005	15,690
[*]2006	17,089
[*]2007	16,399
[*]2008	15,338
[*]2009	8,071
[*]2010	27,674
[*]2011	34,706
[*]2012	43,638
[*]2013	30,930
[*]2014	33,675
[*]2015	65,308
[*]2016	61,687
[*]2017	68,978
[*]2018	42,271
[*]2019	37,393
[*]2020	12,295
[/LIST]
Whereas in Europe, the Golf is not only the brand's highest selling car, but it is the best selling car in Europe overall. They move about a half million Golf's a year... and about 15-20 thousand Jettas.
 
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Daemon64

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IBW,

Is right in general. I guess me and my other half are the exception not the rule. We had 13 golf tdi. Which we traded for an E-golf. But once the pandemic hit and she was driving almost we sold the e-golf to carvana... between that, the not so great range, and the charging network where we are. Her other car is a 2011 wrx Hatchback.... although sometime late next year she is considering getting the Q4 etron since the range will be enough that we can make it to long distance fast chargers up north... ( we will keep the WRX it's her project car and the goal is to turn it into a track car. Me I will be switching from my q5 TDI, to the Q5 PHEV. This should keep me electric on most of my trips and still allow me to tow the travel trailer distances like we do, and our smaller trailer for construction materials and the such.

We are very interested in the new platform...
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Note that the Golf 8 most likely won't be coming to the US other than in GTI and R trim. Why? Because no one bought the base Golfs.

The only layout I like better than a hatchback is a wagon. But most Americans, based on auto sales numbers, don't like either.

In a recent test Car & Driver referred to the Golf as "the Camry of Europe." Not far off.
 

Oberkanone

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What I want is a Golf GTD. Located excellent condition 25 year old GTD for sale in Germany with current TUV.
I can dream.....
 

PB_NB

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We have been enjoying our BMW i3 for about 2 years now as a second work vehicle for our business. It does a great job and range has never been an issue (it is a 2015 with lower electric range and has the range extender)). We usually have tons of battery left at the end of the day and simply plug it in with our L2 charger so it is ready to go again in a few hours.

We have saved a lot of dollars in fuel with this little car. It is a hatch and does very well carrying a light compliment of tools for our service work. The electric rates in BC are pretty good since we have so much. I am hoping to get at least another 3 years out of it.
 

turbobrick240

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Nice. I used to think the I3 was sort of goofy looking, but it has grown on me lately. I really like the carbon fiber construction, and the range extender makes it quite versatile despite there not being a terrific charging network for non Teslas just yet.
 

turbobrick240

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Note that the Golf 8 most likely won't be coming to the US other than in GTI and R trim. Why? Because no one bought the base Golfs.

The only layout I like better than a hatchback is a wagon. But most Americans, based on auto sales numbers, don't like either.

In a recent test Car & Driver referred to the Golf as "the Camry of Europe." Not far off.
I don't know the breakdown of Golf trim levels/models in the numbers USMCFieldMP posted, but it looks like the Mk7 did extremely well for the first three years. I think the GTI may have just grown in popularity much more than the "lesser" Golfs. The new Mk8 gti could do well too. I gave the mk7 GTI pretty serious consideration a couple of years ago, but I've moved on at this point. My 2010 golf probably has two more winters max before rust makes it unappealing to me. I just noticed the first paint bubbling a bit on the fender wheel arch today. It'll be a fancy electric next.

Here's a really good interview Rob Maurer did with Jim Cramer in regards to Tesla. Any members with a deep inner hatred of Tesla definitely shouldn't watch- it will make their blood boil. https://youtu.be/rSM89vRNq4Y
 
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Daemon64

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Turbo,

Appreciate the Tesla PSA. Just as a general thought although it may seem contrary to how I speak about them. I don't hate Tesla. I just dont believe all the hype, and like to consider all angles. They have some interesting vehicles, and have really driven that market. I considered even getting one years ago in the model s/x days. But ultimately your inability to repair your own vehicle, and the quality control issues are what drove me clear then. ( this was before I towed ). Now that I have to do some towing, and the previous mentioned items it is a non-starter. But electric vehicles are neat. I have an issue with electrics because I like some of the ICE drama when driving. But I will likely seriously consider electrics when I can tow over 250 miles on a charge, and can charge to 80% in 30 minutes or less.
 

turbobrick240

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Hey Daemon, that wasn't directed at you or anyone here really. I don't think we're a hateful bunch. It was more of a sneaky attempt at reverse psychology to get the Tesla skeptics to watch.:p You seem like a good guy. Heck, you've owned more EVs than I have (not counting the electric race car I helped build back in '96). I'm a gearhead too. I figure a gallon or two of gas in my dune buggy a few times each summer won't end the world once I make the switch over to electric.
 

gulfcoastguy

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I will probably be going to a Tesla Model Y in 2021. I want to like the VW ID 4 and I do like the instrumentation, the apps, and a nearby dealership. But....it is the fast charging network in my three state area, Tesla has an excellent one and VW not so much.
 
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