Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
You don't need to guess... this is a known quantity. ~300wh per mile for a large EV.

So on average ~130g of CO2 per mile vs ~2x that for a diesel that gets ~40mpg. And that 130g/mi for an EV assumes grid mix which EVs don't use 'grid mix'. They are predominantly charged off-peak when renewables are more abundant. Soon enough we should be able to aggregate EVs so that the vast majority of energy used to charge them will be surplus renewables that would have gone to waste if there wasn't a wheeled battery waiting to soak up orphaned electrons.
Oh yes... I forgot to ask - the home-based supercharger. How much current do they take? Remember my situation, too. I really don't have any room on either driveway right now for vehicles, so along the road from my gate would be where things would get charged. In fact, that's where trucks, tractors and trailers are presently stored. Also, I don't really get 40mpg unless my car is devoid of a trailer.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
That's also $60K I don't have. I think the quote I got for a 25kW system through our co-op was under $30K, but still, it's money I don't have. And I honestly wasn't wild about a loan through them, because there's still interest tacked onto it.
??? How did you arrive at a 18 year payback on a PV system that costs under $30k and saves ~$6,000 per year?
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
??? How did you arrive at a 18 year payback on a PV system that costs under $30k and saves ~$6,000 per year?
The spreadsheet the co-op presented, based on how much sun we have here in Hill Country throughout the year. The other problem too is where we would mount the panels. Both roofs aren't really the best options due to the type of home construction, that's not really pertinent to this thread. And if it wasn't 18 years, it might've been 13. I know it was over a decade away before we'd break even, and I didn't feel the cost was justified, when I had other, more important ranch expenditures that needed to be done.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
when I had other, more important ranch expenditures that needed to be done.
So why not the loan option then? Most loans are now structured where the payments are less than the savings. Wouldn't it be better to pay $400/mo to the bank than $500/mo to the utility?
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
My last utility bill was $127 and that included some level 1 car charging. It is hard to make the math work out on that.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
My last utility bill was $127 and that included some level 1 car charging. It is hard to make the math work out on that.
Is it? Wouldn't $15k and $0/mo for the next 30 years be better because numbers? OR... my favorite way since interest rates are so low is to refinance your house, that would be ~$70/mo. Which is better? $70/mo to the bank or $127/mo to the utility?

Y'all realize PV systems come in more than one size..... right?
 
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gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
First I am 61 and unlikely to live to be 91, second my south facing roof is metal and 3 miles from the Gulf of Mexico (remember Katrina?), third my only debt is my VW car note and I am not refinancing a paid off house .
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
Okay it seems that more detail is needed. My metal roof has a 40 year warranty provided I don’t void it with new penetrations. The only solar panel fastening system that would not put screws through my metal is limited to 130 mph winds. Second trees to my East in the neighbors yard shade at least half of my roof. Third why would I put a lien on a paid off house in order to save $50.00 a month?
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Okay it seems that more detail is needed. My metal roof has a 40 year warranty provided I don’t void it with new penetrations. The only solar panel fastening system that would not put screws through my metal is limited to 130 mph winds. Second trees to my East in the neighbors yard shade at least half of my roof. Third why would I put a lien on a paid off house in order to save $50.00 a month?
So.... the math actually DOES work... you just have too many trees; Wouldn’t that have been a more accurate excuse instead of spreading misinformation about how PV somehow doesn’t make sense if your electric bill is <$130/mo?
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
So why not the loan option then? Most loans are now structured where the payments are less than the savings. Wouldn't it be better to pay $400/mo to the bank than $500/mo to the utility?
Not really. Plus we get refunds back from the utility every month, since it's owned by its members. I don't remember the interest rate. It wasn't crazy high, but I seriously don't think you understand. The 25kw system wouldn't pay for 100% of my energy usage each day. I also don't think you understand that this would be for an entire (small) ranch. 2 houses, which means two sets of kitchens/appliances, 4 upright freezers, 7 refrigerators, 2 hot water heaters, a small heated pool, two HVACs, and various other ranch stuff. Plus my server rack. Now it makes me wonder what it would cost if I were charging an EV, since I'm pretty sure it's not as simple as a 20a circuit for an EV supercharger.

They also suggested some Powerwall batteries, but given how s#itty I hear Tesla's customer service is, that made me lose interest even quicker.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
Okay it seems that more detail is needed. My metal roof has a 40 year warranty provided I don’t void it with new penetrations. The only solar panel fastening system that would not put screws through my metal is limited to 130 mph winds. Second trees to my East in the neighbors yard shade at least half of my roof. Third why would I put a lien on a paid off house in order to save $50.00 a month?
Yes! Same thing. Why the hell would I put a lien on property that's otherwise paid off?

The one thing that still concerns me are how much these panels weight. Nobody seems to be able to directly tell me. Mom's house as it is is built from ICF blocks, and it has a full size basement and attic (both fairly rare here in south central Texas). That said, I don't really want to tack any more unnecessary weight onto the house than I need to. And while I think about it even more, I don't even remember if that $15K-18K estimate included labor or not. I know I'm in no position to be installing solar panels on a roof after my accident.

And I'd maybe be saving the same or so as the other guy, except during the summer, I'm seeing $450-500 bills per month. On the plus side, we talked with the co-op about panels perhaps out in the pasture, which could be shade for the goats, but honestly, I feel that delves into being an eyesore.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
When I had my panels installed an engineer came out and made sure that the building could support them. I don't know what they weigh. But the building I was installing them on is fairly new (about 6 years old at the time) and built well.

One great side benefit of the panels is the second floor of my garage is much cooler in summer than it would be without the panels.
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
Yes! Same thing. Why the hell would I put a lien on property that's otherwise paid off?

The one thing that still concerns me are how much these panels weight. Nobody seems to be able to directly tell me. Mom's house as it is is built from ICF blocks, and it has a full size basement and attic (both fairly rare here in south central Texas). That said, I don't really want to tack any more unnecessary weight onto the house than I need to. And while I think about it even more, I don't even remember if that $15K-18K estimate included labor or not. I know I'm in no position to be installing solar panels on a roof after my accident.

And I'd maybe be saving the same or so as the other guy, except during the summer, I'm seeing $450-500 bills per month. On the plus side, we talked with the co-op about panels perhaps out in the pasture, which could be shade for the goats, but honestly, I feel that delves into being an eyesore.
Okay if her house was built with concrete masonry units the walls could almost certainly hold the weight. The question becomes the roof trusses and decking. Hopefully the roof is supported by trusses on the exterior walls with no interior load bearing walls. Also that the roof decking is 5/8 inch plywood, 3/4 inch OSB, or 3/4 inch wooden boards and that there is the correct spacing on the roof trusses.
 

gulfcoastguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2012
Location
MS Gulfcoast
TDI
TDI sold, Mazda 3 purchased
Don’t put words in my mouth. First they are not my trees. Second my local utility buys extra electricity wholesale but charges retail. It also has a minimum monthly fee for line maintenance. Third you can shove calling my post miss information where the sun doesn’t shine.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Don’t put words in my mouth. First they are not my trees. Second my local utility buys extra electricity wholesale but charges retail. It also has a minimum monthly fee for line maintenance. Third you can shove calling my post miss information where the sun doesn’t shine.
You suggested PV doesn’t make sense because your electric bill is only $127. Am I misrepresenting your reasoning? That’s just silly. Solar scales. It’s a ~10 year payback. If your electric bill is ~$100/mo then a $12k system will cover it. ~$200.... then a ~$24k system. Math.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
gulfcoastguy your situation is a good example how adding solar (or another type of renewable generation) isn't for everyone. First, the up front expense is significant. Second, your homes location (weather, shade) isn't optimal. Although I'm sure that the idea of zeroing out your utility bills is appealing, it doesn't work for you where you live and at this point in your life. Seems your county of municipality needs to step up to increase renewable fuel availability where you live.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Yes! Same thing. Why the hell would I put a lien on property that's otherwise paid off?
Because allowing your money or equity to sit around doing nothing when you have a ~zero risk opportunity to put it to work is idiotic? If you can put ~$15k of equity to work saving you ~$130/mo why not put it to work saving you $130/mo?

It also gives you a double hedge against inflation. If you owe $15k and the dollar drops in value by ~2% you effectively owe less AND as electric rates rise with inflation the energy your PV system produces becomes more valuable. Win-Win-Win.

The 25kw system wouldn't pay for 100% of my energy usage each day.
??? Why does that matter? Can you explain this reasoning to me? It's never made any sense. Why is saving $500 on a $700 electric bill somehow worth less than saving $500 on a $500 electric bill. It's $500. $500 = $500 because numbers. No reason it has to be 100%.
 
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IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Some people have worked hard to pay off their primary dwelling and do not want to go back into debt. Makes sense to me.
 

Poor King

Veteran Member
Joined
May 20, 2020
Location
NY
TDI
'91 Jetta, '91 GTI, '04 Touareg
During the last heatwave there was a citywide advisory to not draw too much power by conserving our usage of electrical products. Just being a rando, I am.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
You suggested PV doesn’t make sense because your electric bill is only $127. Am I misrepresenting your reasoning? That’s just silly. Solar scales. It’s a ~10 year payback. If your electric bill is ~$100/mo then a $12k system will cover it. ~$200.... then a ~$24k system. Math.
I'll take up the arguement that you seem to not be hearing. Based on my utility bills of $170 monthly billing average between gas and electric, the quote for solar I got had an 18 year payback after the federal tax credit that I may not be able to take full advantage of. I have trees that block part of the roof and they are not coming down. It makes no sense to remove the buffers that help keep the house cooler to add a power source to my roof.

I'm not against solar or wind power, it just has to make sense to my budget.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Some people have worked hard to pay off their primary dwelling and do not want to go back into debt. Makes sense to me.
Paying off a home early is one of the most expensive things you can do. I could payoff my mortgage tomorrow but it would be idiotic to sideline that much cash. People somehow think solar is 'bad' investment? Run the numbers on paying off a house early with interest rates at ~4% vs the historical average of the S&P. Solar is a nice middle ground, almost as good of a return with none of the volatility.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
I'll take up the arguement that you seem to not be hearing. Based on my utility bills of $170 monthly billing average between gas and electric, the quote for solar I got had an 18 year payback after the federal tax credit that I may not be able to take full advantage of. I have trees that block part of the roof and they are not coming down. It makes no sense to remove the buffers that help keep the house cooler to add a power source to my roof.

I'm not against solar or wind power, it just has to make sense to my budget.
I've never said solar is for everyone. If your house is nestled in a forest then obviously the panels won't work. But what relevance is a $170 or $127 electric bill to the fact your house is in perpetual shade? If you have sun exposure it doesn't matter how much your electric bill is. You can buy panels and it will pay for itself in ~10 years. Not 18.

If you have trees you want to keep then you have trees you want to keep.... the trees are the reason solar doesn't make sense. Why not just say that? Our electrician just bought a house with a huge shade tree SW of his house. I told him upfront it's the tree or solar but not both. Has absolutely nothing to do with how much his electric bill will be.....
 

Mozambiquer

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Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Location
Versailles Missouri
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1998 VW Jetta TDI. 1982 VW Rabbit pickup, 2001 VW Jetta TDI
Paying off a home early is one of the most expensive things you can do. I could payoff my mortgage tomorrow but it would be idiotic to sideline that much cash. People somehow think solar is 'bad' investment? Run the numbers on paying off a house early with interest rates at ~4% vs the historical average of the S&P. Solar is a nice middle ground, almost as good of a return with none of the volatility.
What??? That makes no sense to me... What's idiotic about paying your home off early? Maybe it's because I own my home free and clear, paid it off last year, and have no debt, and I want to keep it that way, but if you have the money to pay it off, why not?
 

nicklockard

Torque Dorque
Joined
Aug 15, 2004
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Touareg Tdi w/factory Tow PCKG
During the last heatwave there was a citywide advisory to not draw too much power by conserving our usage of electrical products. Just being a rando, I am.

I actually see a future in smart load shedding using programmable units. But it might take another 5 years for the technology to get there. Imagine if we could set usage priorities and have the clothes washer wait its turn until after the AC had cycled off, and only during low cost hours? We could cut our peak demand and negate the need for adding a lot of baseload capacity and swing capacity plants too.
 

Mozambiquer

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Location
Versailles Missouri
TDI
1998 VW Jetta TDI. 1982 VW Rabbit pickup, 2001 VW Jetta TDI
I actually see a future in smart load shedding using programmable units. But it might take another 5 years for the technology to get there. Imagine if we could set usage priorities and have the clothes washer wait its turn until after the AC had cycled off, and only during low cost hours? We could cut our peak demand and negate the need for adding a lot of baseload capacity and swing capacity plants too.
Just so long as we don't do South African load shedding...
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Paying off a home early is one of the most expensive things you can do.
Yeah, yeah, we all know this, but owning your primary dwelling free of debt isn't about the money, at least it isn't for me. There are a lot of things I'd to to raise cash if I needed to before borrowing against my house.
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Eunice
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
What??? That makes no sense to me... What's idiotic about paying your home off early? Maybe it's because I own my home free and clear, paid it off last year, and have no debt, and I want to keep it that way, but if you have the money to pay it off, why not?
Because there's over a dozen ways to use that cash more effectively. If I had paid off my mortgage when I had the cash to do so 8 years ago I would have a paid off house and $0 cash. Instead I left it in diversified investments and I have a ~$100k mortgage and >$500k in cash. Am I better off with $0 debt and $0 cash or $100k debt and $500k cash? If you can borrow at 4% and invest at 10% you should. Welcome to capitalism.
 
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