Who’s going to Tesla after their current TDI?

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
We cannot compare EVs because there is no good data to compare to. There are no 20 year old ones out there to buy. But you can buy as many 20 year old $2500 beaters as you care to buy, and many of them are still capable of doing everything they did when new just the same as they did when new. I have a driveway full of them.

All the "near affordable" used EVs are suffering from decreased range, almost to the point of being completely worthless to anyone. Why would I want a car that can barely go 20 miles? The rest are still too ridiculously priced. And some are just so hideous to look at, I couldn't stomach walking up to it every day (the new ID-whatever-it-is is STUPID to look at, at least the eGolf looked like a normal Golf, but then we are back to the ever-shortening range problem).

And while I can stomach the outward look of the Tesla (aside from the one that looks like a futuristic turtle), the interior ergonomics is just too damn strange for me, sorry. I thought BMW had some crazy nonsense to start a car and make it move, but every time I have to drive a Tesla I have to rethink how to make it even move. It shouldn't be that complicated, and I don't care to drive anything with an iPad glued to the dash. Again, at least the eGolf (and the no-longer-available 500e, eSpark, and Focus Energi) for the most part not only looked "normal", but operated mostly "normal" too.

When there is a 20 year old eGolf that I can buy for $2500 and it can still go as far as it did when new, sign me up. I'll buy it. I am not holding my breath.
 

kjclow

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What numbers? Either you're getting your electricity for next to nothing or the PV system was over-priced. A DIY PV system can pay for itself in ~3 years. Turnkey is typically ~10. You can DIY a 5kW PV system for <$3k after the FTC. 5kW will produce ~9MWh/yr; @ $0.10/kWh you're saving ~$900/yr ; $3k / $900/yr = 3.3 Years. 9MWh is enough energy to drive >30,000 miles. Even if you get ~50mpg that's ~600 gallons of diesel. So $3k in solar can save ~$1800/yr in diesel if you have an EV.

I bought a used Model 3 for $37,500. I can easily go ~1000 miles with a few charging stops that add up to less than 2 hours. Taking into account breaks most people would take driving an ICE there's really not going to be much if any difference in how long a trip takes unless you're peeing in a bottle while you drive.
Solar quote for me had about an 18 year payback. I'm not going up on the roof to install it myself.
 

turbobrick240

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maine
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2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I agree with Oilhammer that the eGolf is a better looking car than the ID3. It looks like a normal Golf because it is one- just with electric drivetrain. But I don't find the ID3 objectionable- the Golf is just a particularly good design from an aesthetic point of view. And the ID4 looks like a handful of other SUVs, all of which look just fine, imo. A $2500 eGolf with like new range would still be significantly range constrained- not terrible I suppose if you have other vehicles for longer trips.
 

akjdouglass

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Jefferson City, Missouri
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2012 Jetta w/premium (sold to VW); 2014 Jetta Value Edition; 2015 Jetta SEL
My 2014 Jetta (purchased new) is almost 7 years old. Going to take a LOT more than 8+ years for me to consider it worthy of disposing and replacing with a rechargeable appliance.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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Medina, TX
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ree. Or you could park near a supercharger and just charge up for a half hour or less in the morning or before going to sleep if running low on range. Idling your ICEV overnight for AC is incredibly inefficient. I'd be surprised if 10% of the energy consumed is actually keeping you cool.
Oh, I never said it was efficient. But it's a lot cheaper than spending $80 to spend the night at a Motel 6 or equivalent hotel that still doesn't wash sheets daily, even during a pandemic. And it's even more relevant if I have valuables that I don't want to leave unattented in the trailer.

As to solar, it's expensive here in AZ and there are lots of scam companies out there pushing it. I'm not knocking solar but the more research I do (we are looking to have it installed) I do the less attractive it looks.
Same scenario here. I got my primary quote from our co-op, who isn't a scam company (since they are member owned and the sole energy provider in the county), but the ROI for a 25kW solar system was about 18 years, and that was when they had the federal tax credits. Now? Doesn't even make sense.

Which, many people will tell you, is one of the biggest economic mistakes a household can make. I like to buy new, but I tend to mitigate that by keeping my cars a long, long time. Only two of the 6 cars I currently own were bought new: one 4 years ago, one 19 years ago. The rest cost a fraction of their original MSRPs. For now, EVs have a big disadvantage compared to used ICEVs.
I think I'm done buying new. I've bought a few things here and there, but hell - even buying CPO TDIs (we have 3 here), I'm tired of car payments, and still having to fix things. I'm more in favor of buying used. I know some people who just want the thrill of new, be it that upholstery smell, new gadgets and doodads, tax credits, etc.

Car & Driver developed a cost comparison between a new ID.4 and a top-of-the-line Tiguan. The Tiguan was less expensive over 3 years, but not by much. But that was, of course, a new car to new car comparison.
A Tiguan? Ugh. That car is a such a pile of crap. Might as well have compared a low end Hyundai in that article.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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All the "near affordable" used EVs are suffering from decreased range, almost to the point of being completely worthless to anyone. Why would I want a car that can barely go 20 miles? The rest are still too ridiculously priced. And some are just so hideous to look at, I couldn't stomach walking up to it every day (the new ID-whatever-it-is is STUPID to look at, at least the eGolf looked like a normal Golf, but then we are back to the ever-shortening range problem).
Dare I even ask what replacement battery packs sell for? I know there are third party companies that rebuild packs. One of them is in So Cal and owned by a former employer, who is known for using the $hittiest Lithium Ion batteries money can buy (along with scamming businesses/individuals out of their money). So I'd be hesitant if I bought a rebuilt battery pack with say the wrong kind of Lithium Ion cells installed, or maybe a bad solder/spot weld somewhere along the way.

And while I can stomach the outward look of the Tesla (aside from the one that looks like a futuristic turtle), the interior ergonomics is just too damn strange for me, sorry. I thought BMW had some crazy nonsense to start a car and make it move, but every time I have to drive a Tesla I have to rethink how to make it even move. It shouldn't be that complicated, and I don't care to drive anything with an iPad glued to the dash.
Yes, THIS! It's too damn distracting. I wouldn't even consider a Tesla unless the screen was gone, and traditional controls were available. It's hard enough dealing with a phone mounted at eye level when driving for Uber, so I can't even imagine dealing with that giant tablet on a Tesla. The one time I rode in one, I found it very distracting and not at all appealing.

When there is a 20 year old eGolf that I can buy for $2500 and it can still go as far as it did when new, sign me up. I'll buy it. I am not holding my breath.
On that note - my other qualm is not seeing these cars in the junkyards. I like keeping a small cache of parts, like hoods or fenders for deer mishaps, or just to take things apart to learn how it comes apart (junkyard is good at that, because you can make a mistake and not kick yourself in the shin for it later). I haven't yet seen a Tesla in the junkyard, though I've seen Porsche, Maserati and AMG.


On a side note, I'm still finding it convenient and amusing that after I asked some specific questions to @nwdiver , he ditched me. I think he did the same several years ago, when he used to troll the dieselgate thread.
 

El Dobro

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If they place incentives on ICE vehicles then people would go thataway so there's no sense in comparing the two regarding sales.
I got a tax credit on my 2009 "clean diesel" when I bought it. I'm surprised they didn't ask for it back. :p
 

Poor King

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EV's are unique to their capacity to sell both hardware and software, and the EV initiative provides our government the gateway to sell their own hardware-- Minerals of course. Hence if our government actually cared for reducing C02 emissions by way of adding more EV's on the road, they would provide hard-hitting incentives for the lower class folks like many other countries do.

Lower class worker bees are en route to their first home ownership or a capable business before ever indulging upon a 30k car payment. A 20k EV purchase would seem much more plausible for that demographic. Unfortunately, that business model would suffice insignificant monetary gains for the hardware they would be stealing *cough*... I mean selling 😗

Why gamble away a 200% profit margin when middle & upper class folks already have the funds. They also have the right credit scores and their homes are perfect for EV adaptation.

Even better. Lets pickpocket the taxes off low class worker bees and nudge these well off fairies into into their bank accounts, and let them ride the "wave of the future" affordably.
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When I walk into my local Walgreens and spend $5, they hand me a coupon savings of $10 if I spend $30 the next time by.

And if I spend $20 in my first visit, they only hand me a coupon savings of $4 the next time by. That is because they already got my monies and don't bank on me returning to spend more. Just something to think about if you actually think you've got one over in a capitalistic system.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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Medina, TX
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2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
Pretty well written post and I enjoyed reading your thoughts. Touche on the Walgreens example.

That said, this makes me wonder about those in states like CA where you can't buy new ICE vehicles starting in 2035. I guess there will definitely be a lot of hoarding of gassers and hybrids from years prior, because public transportation doesn't it necessarily cut it for the worker bees, but neither will limited range EVs with a price premium.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
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Medina, TX
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2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
All the "near affordable" used EVs are suffering from decreased range, almost to the point of being completely worthless to anyone. Why would I want a car that can barely go 20 miles? The rest are still too ridiculously priced. And some are just so hideous to look at, I couldn't stomach walking up to it every day (the new ID-whatever-it-is is STUPID to look at, at least the eGolf looked like a normal Golf, but then we are back to the ever-shortening range problem).
Oh yeah, and thanks to you Brian. Actually, I think I confused your post and was thinking of the BMW i3, which I think is a FUGLY EV. Anyways, I got an image of this ugly ID-whatever car in my dreams while taking a COVID/J&J vaccine-induced nap (just got it a few hours ago). Dreamt that monstrosity was having powertrain problems and ended up rolling onto its side at an intersection!
 

Poor King

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@pkhoury not sure why I spend so much time thinking about a market I have no intentions of delving in, but it is true what they are doing. Based on income, instead of handing $7000 to folks who can afford EV's, they could double up and hand $13,000 incentives for people who actually need the help. That would be a great way to get more EV's on the road. But that is not what they are truly after now is it; seems to me that they are targeting people with money to spend. I bet anything EV incentives will be off the table once they do come down in prices.

Hopefully private companies come to create EV kits which I can slap onto my MK1/MK2's. Having to rid of a particular era of cars i've always loved is kinda sad.

P.S I do not think you're a well-off fairy lol. I'd rather you save your monies for a better deal to come along when they are desperate from low sales.
 
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turbobrick240

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That's more or less what is being proposed- a tax credit/rebate of $12,500 for EVs built in the US with union labor. Or $10,000 for those built in the US without union labor. $7500 for those built outside of the US. Hopefully it will be a rebate rather than a tax credit.
 

Poor King

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A total shift in both EV infrastructure and number of ownership if that gets approved. But you wouldn't catch me trading the tdi for a Tesla because Id find myself in a Bolt!
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
@pkhoury not sure why I spend so much time thinking about a market I have no intentions of delving in, but it is true what they are doing. Based on income, instead of handing $7000 to folks who can afford EV's, they could double up and hand $13,000 incentives for people who actually need the help. That would be a great way to get more EV's on the road. But that is not what they are truly after now is it; seems to me that they are targeting people with money to spend. I bet anything EV incentives will be off the table once they do come down in prices.

Hopefully private companies come to create EV kits which I can slap onto my MK1/MK2's. Having to rid of a particular era of cars i've always loved is kinda sad.

P.S I do not think you're a well-off fairy lol. I'd rather you save your monies for a better deal to come along when they are desperate from low sales.
I'm not a well-off fairy, though some might think so with all the parts I've been throwing at my 2002 Golf to make it just right.

I guess what's ironic is a lot of companies' founders claim to espouse philanthropy, like Bill Gates... and yet, I don't remember hearing about substantial discounts for lower income people, unless you were a student. Even buying older copies of Office used is still expensive.

I wonder if one of those tech-breakdown companies tore apart a Tesla to see what the actual value of it is, much like what they do when Apple or Samsung releases their latest flagship phone. Like, I wonder how much of a Tesla is pure profit for Tesla, since there's obviously no middle man.

Funny you mentioned an EV kit for a mk1/2. I was thinking of the same thing for my mk4 - like an electric motor with proper mounts for the flywheel and bellhousing. I don't know what the hell range would be, or how much battteries would really progress in the next two decades, but an EV with a manual transmission? That would be something that would interest me. I know the Honda Insight (the original, ugly monstrosity) paired a 3 cylinder engine/hybrid drive with a standard, but that car was also as useful as a SMART car.

That's more or less what is being proposed- a tax credit/rebate of $12,500 for EVs built in the US with union labor. Or $10,000 for those built in the US without union labor. $7500 for those built outside of the US. Hopefully it will be a rebate rather than a tax credit.
Given my feeling about unions, I'd probably go out of my way to get the $10K break, if I were in that market. UAW/unions is a sore subject for me. Rebates make more sense for the general public. Tax credits are only really useful if your income warrants said credit.
 

TurboABA

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There is no one perfect solution for everything, but there sure are a few that would work in certain areas\zones......
I'm sure that EVs will not make sense out in da stix where Bubba likes to roll coal in his 12" lift Powerstroke while pulling his farm equipment around.... and no free parking\reduced tolls\HOV lane use\free supercharging at Walmart will ever change that..... but for Annie who lives on the 24th floor in downtown metropolis and spends half her income just paying for parking\gas\tolls\maintenance on her Smart for Two, all these possible incentives would make a massive difference.

We have sufficient technology and knowledge, but there's just too much profit to be lost by the big dawgs for society to make good use of it.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
It comes down to choice, and what people want, not necessarily what they could get by with. Let's face it, if small efficient vehicles were the "norm", then the move to an EV would be possibly more of an obvious choice. But when you cannot get people out of their gas guzzlers as it is, then....
 

turbobrick240

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That's where govt. has to step in occasionally and take the helm. Like taxing the bejeezus out of packs of smokes. That has to be keeping a percentage of kids from picking up the habit.
 

Mozambiquer

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There is no one perfect solution for everything, but there sure are a few that would work in certain areas\zones......
I'm sure that EVs will not make sense out in da stix where Bubba likes to roll coal in his 12" lift Powerstroke while pulling his farm equipment around.... and no free parking\reduced tolls\HOV lane use\free supercharging at Walmart will ever change that..... but for Annie who lives on the 24th floor in downtown metropolis and spends half her income just paying for parking\gas\tolls\maintenance on her Smart for Two, all these possible incentives would make a massive difference.

We have sufficient technology and knowledge, but there's just too much profit to be lost by the big dawgs for society to make good use of it.
Hey, that's unfair characterization... Bubba with his 12"lift powerstroke is not a farmer, and he doesn't pull anything, even though he has a 12"drop hitch on his second gen dodge Cummins. Bubba with the 12" lift is a redneck who thinks he's country, but if he was really country, he'd realize that none of that is practical for country living. The real country guys are the ones driving a diesel farm truck that may be tuned and deleted, but they're not rolling coal, they're also not lifted, and they actually work for a living, unlike bubba who has a big credit card and a lot of payments, and is on food stamps and welfare, because "he can't work" because of some disorder he has.

There is a bit of facetiousness in there, but it's very true to my area...
 

kjclow

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That's where govt. has to step in occasionally and take the helm. Like taxing the bejeezus out of packs of smokes. That has to be keeping a percentage of kids from picking up the habit.
Bad example since the number of kids (under 25) smoking is up, especially outside of the US.

I remember reading an article a few years back talking about how much it really cost the Swedish or Norweign governements to incentize thier population away from ICE cars and into hybrids. yes, if you throw enough money at the problem, it may go away but there has to be a balance point. Tax incentives are good, if you actually pay out every April. Not so go if you're used to getting a check for letting Uncle Sam use your money. I think it's a very slippery and steep slope for the government (Local, state, or federal) to start mandating what we have to buy for our basic transportation.

As an example of over reach: City of Charlotte just outlawed using plastic bags for your yard waste. Instead you have to use the large paper bags or they will fine you up to $500 per incident. To get your paper bags, you either have to but them at the local bigbox or drive to the compost site and get a total of 10 bags per trip. I'm not against outlawing the plastic bags, they just need to make it easier to acquire the paper bags. They could drop a bundle at each taxpayers address when they're already out picking up the other trash.
 

kjclow

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Hey, that's unfair characterization... Bubba with his 12"lift powerstroke is not a farmer, and he doesn't pull anything, even though he has a 12"drop hitch on his second gen dodge Cummins. Bubba with the 12" lift is a redneck who thinks he's country, but if he was really country, he'd realize that none of that is practical for country living. The real country guys are the ones driving a diesel farm truck that may be tuned and deleted, but they're not rolling coal, they're also not lifted, and they actually work for a living, unlike bubba who has a big credit card and a lot of payments, and is on food stamps and welfare, because "he can't work" because of some disorder he has.

There is a bit of facetiousness in there, but it's very true to my area...
The farmer may be rolling coal but that's only when trying to get that wagon moving. Might also be rolling coal becasue his current farm truck is held together with bailing twine and barbed wire. His bank won't loan him the $$$ for a new truck.
 

Mozambiquer

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The farmer may be rolling coal but that's only when trying to get that wagon moving. Might also be rolling coal becasue his current farm truck is held together with bailing twine and barbed wire. His bank won't loan him the $$$ for a new truck.
No, it's not that the bank won't loan him money, he could buy it cash in hand, he just doesn't want to, because his still runs... Off topic. Sorry bout that! 🤣
 

turbobrick240

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I wonder if vaping is included in those stats. Our govt. can't really influence what kids in other countries do all that much, although a lot of tobacco is grown here. And we do have an outsized influence on popular culture. There are more gentle ways to nudge folks toward EVs than mandates. Like ending subsidies for the fossil fuel industry. Or a carbon tax. Though I expect mandates will come into play at some point in the future. It looks like much of Europe is moving toward mandates banning sales of new ICEVs and hybrids by 2035. And many European cities will likely ban ICEVs well before that.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I use a lot of fossil fuels (drive a lot, heat my house with oil), but I'd welcome a carbon tax. I think the incentive to use less of the stuff would be a very positive move in many ways, not just for the migration to EVs. But it is regressive, so I doubt we'll ever get one.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
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outside St Louis (where it's safe)
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There are just too many to list....
I don't want any more taxation. We already have enough of that, and then some. They (the gov't) needs to better figure out how to properly spend what they are already taking, not just take more because they are spending far too much on far too many things for far too many people who don't want a hand up but a hand out.
 
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