When to upgrade intercooler / piping

mountain lion

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
04 Jetta TDI
Curious as to when it's beneficial or necessary to upgrade the SMIC and piping on bew PD...Is the stock config more than enough with a VNT-17 w/ 2.5'' downpipe/no cat + RC2? Or is swapping the stock IC/piping really only once you go with a 17/22 or more with bigger injectors, etc?

Not looking at long WOT runs, mostly highway with occasional hard driving. The only kits I've seen for the PD are from darkside dev, and they seem very reasonably priced. Is there any benefit at all to upgrading even with the basic vnt17 mods up top?

Thanks
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
It's always nice to have a bigger SMIC to reduce heat soak.. Also the best reason to upgrade is to get rid of the crappy clip connectors.
 

mountain lion

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Location
Florida
TDI
04 Jetta TDI
Yea, I guess the stock one gets soaked pretty quick even with the 17? Any other options for us PD owners or are the darkside development kits the go to source? Was kinda surprised to see no options stateside from the big vendors.
 

Ghastly

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2008
Location
mom's basement
TDI
2004 Jetta Sedan, 2009 Jetta Wagon
I had a 2004 BEW with a VNT17 & 2.5" downpipe. Then I installed a tacotaco SMIC with full 2" IC piping. The turbo spooled a little quicker, but the improvement wasn't as dramatic as adding the DP. The big improvement came at the top end. Previously, even with the 2.5" DP, power delivery fell flat on it's face at about 4100 RPM. Power drop-off was really abrupt. Now, with 2" IC piping, it revs freely and still makes OK power up to 4600 RPM. That extra 500 RPM is handy when you need to come up to speed fast, without wasting time changing gears.
 

pkhoury

That guy with the goats
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Location
Medina, TX
TDI
2013 JSW 02Q, 2003 Jetta Ute 02J swap, 2003 Golf 02J swap
Not sure if anyone still looks at this thread, as I started a new one, but what size pipe do y'all need for the EGR delete? Darkside has a 51mm or 57mm pipe option, but I have no clue what size I need (fixmyvw EGR delete). Otherwise, I have roughly the same setup - VNT17, Stage 4 tune with a 2.5" straight pipe. An LSD is also tempting in the future.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co....i-pd130-asz-and-us-spec-bew-pd100-engine.html
 

PGM jetta

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Dec 14, 2015
Location
Northern Alabama
TDI
05 Jetta BEW
Not sure if anyone still looks at this thread, as I started a new one, but what size pipe do y'all need for the EGR delete? Darkside has a 51mm or 57mm pipe option, but I have no clue what size I need (fixmyvw EGR delete). Otherwise, I have roughly the same setup - VNT17, Stage 4 tune with a 2.5" straight pipe. An LSD is also tempting in the future.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co....i-pd130-asz-and-us-spec-bew-pd100-engine.html
Your EGR is on the side of the intake manifold above the valve cover. I would suggest leaving your anti-shudder valve in place. Just slip the original hose over the new pipe

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

Rrusse11

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Jan 23, 2014
Location
PA Deutsch Country
TDI
2002 Golf, 5spd; 05 Jeep CRD
"An LSD is also tempting in the future" pkhourly

As someone who has done it, with ~ 2k on the car now, do it!
Transforms the way the car drives and handles, if you're a commuter,
don't bother; but if you like to drive, you'll never look back.

Cheers,
R*2
 

3L3M3NT

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Location
Sturgeon Bay, WI
TDI
04 Jetta GLS TDI, 04 RTDI
Not sure if anyone still looks at this thread, as I started a new one, but what size pipe do y'all need for the EGR delete? Darkside has a 51mm or 57mm pipe option, but I have no clue what size I need (fixmyvw EGR delete). Otherwise, I have roughly the same setup - VNT17, Stage 4 tune with a 2.5" straight pipe. An LSD is also tempting in the future.
http://www.darksidedevelopments.co....i-pd130-asz-and-us-spec-bew-pd100-engine.html
My vote would be to go with the 51mm/2" piping as that is pretty close to stock size. 57mm/2.5" is to large of piping for current setup and would add a tiny bit of lag to the car, since the turbo has to fill a larger volume.

As mentioned you can more than likely keep your asv by slipping your current elbow that goes to the intake onto the Darkside IC piping. Or you could always upgrade to a PD150 intake a install a race pipe onto that for a free flowing intake.
Like so http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-1-9-8v-tdi-pd130-pd150-egr-delete-race-pipe-57mm.html

Or with your stock intake manifold http://www.darksidedevelopments.co.uk/products/darkside-1-9-8v-tdi-ve-90-110-and-pd100-pd115-egr-delete-race-pipe-51mm.html
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Location
MN
TDI
02 golf ALH
Not looking at long WOT runs, mostly highway with occasional hard driving.
stock IC is plenty for what you describe
even the plastic pancake pipe is flowing more than your turbo
I'm still running the stock IC and plastic upper pipe on my junk, would be running the stock pancake pipe too but it doesn't have the easily adaptable connections like the 1.8 one does.
 
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ketchupshirt88

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Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Location
waupaca, WI
TDI
1996 B4 (red death), 1997 B4V (black death)
nerdy math bits on what size piping is needed for what amount of airflow. this has been brought a hand full of times if you wanna read more

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=363037
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=358157
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=215453

basically says there's no need to go bigger than 2" piping unless you are moving more air than what a 17/22 can push


as for the intercooler, the biggest reason im ditching the SMIC for a small FMIC is that the seals keep blowing out on the side mounts... and good condition B4 intercoolers are not exactly easy to find like MK4+ stuff.
 

martin33100

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2015
Location
UK
TDI
VW T5 2.5
nerdy math bits on what size piping is needed for what amount of airflow. this has been brought a hand full of times if you wanna read more
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=363037
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=358157
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=215453
basically says there's no need to go bigger than 2" piping unless you are moving more air than what a 17/22 can push
as for the intercooler, the biggest reason im ditching the SMIC for a small FMIC is that the seals keep blowing out on the side mounts... and good condition B4 intercoolers are not exactly easy to find like MK4+ stuff.
Slightly different vehicle but my VW T5 2.5 is running 287hp/625nm on standard OE 2" and 2.25" hoses.
 

Owain@malonetuning

Associate Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Location
Vancouver
TDI
335d, 05 jetta wagon, 84 jetta td
Love this forum, so many detailed replies and maths.

You'll be fine with the stock intercooler, a lot of people run them. Have seen higher temps on some 17/22 beetles down south. I wouldn't bother with a front mount unless going with a big turbo because.

1. They can be a PITA to fit, or expensive.
2. Increase in turbo lag etc if pipe di or length increases
3. It's not an evo

I'd go for the upgraded side mount if anything, data log your intake temps on a hot day, down south you might find need for the larger side mount. Bigger nozzles will help with temps a tad since injection duration can be decreased.
 

TDikook

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 15, 2003
Location
Biloxi, Ms
TDI
'06 Golf Anthracite Blue
with a 17/22 and stock fmic, i reached 200*F+ AIT on a regular basis. any upgrade over stock will help. the climate makes a big difference too. being in the south, an upgrade is almost a necessity. in the north, not so much.
 

Fix_Until_Broke

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 8, 2004
Location
Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
TDI
03 Jetta, 03 TT TDI
with a 17/22 and stock fmic, i reached 200*F+ AIT on a regular basis. any upgrade over stock will help. the climate makes a big difference too. being in the south, an upgrade is almost a necessity. in the north, not so much.
The counter to this is that I have never hit 200F IAT with my 17/22 and am still running a stock intercooler with a 40+ PSI compound turbo setup. 99% of the time it runs 10-20F over ambient. If I'm on hard acceleration through multiple gears at 25+ psi then it will get up to 60+F over ambient but that's it. Even pulling a trailer where you're at 15psi sustained boost it rarely exceeds 30-40F over ambient.

As TDikook says though, the climate makes a big difference - it gets HOT down south!
 

\/\/0J0

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Location
Knoxville, TN
TDI
Sadly, none anymore
The counter to this is that I have never hit 200F IAT with my 17/22 and am still running a stock intercooler with a 40+ PSI compound turbo setup. 99% of the time it runs 10-20F over ambient. If I'm on hard acceleration through multiple gears at 25+ psi then it will get up to 60+F over ambient but that's it. Even pulling a trailer where you're at 15psi sustained boost it rarely exceeds 30-40F over ambient.

As TDikook says though, the climate makes a big difference - it gets HOT down south!
I can understand the compounds not heating the air too much because of their operating in the efficient region of their maps. The 17/22 I had, though, would get up around 200F, if not more. I went with the upgraded smic and it would still hit 170-190F, as much as 90° above ambient. Iirc, I was running a 28 psi tune so it may well have been outside of the most efficient range for that turbo.

Sent from my mobile look-at device
 

Digital Corpus

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Location
Ontario, California
TDI
'97 B4 w/ 236K mi body, 46K mi soul
I can hit over 300 °F with my GTB1756 during summer, if we really want to go there... FUB's point still stands as climate matters a significant deal.
 
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