What-will-they-think-of-next dept.: VW developing 10-speed (!) DSG, high-output TDI

[TDIMeister]

The head of Volkswagen Group, Professor Dr Martin Winterkorn, has announced that the firm is developing an ultra-efficient 10-speed DSG gearbox and a high performance modular diesel engine that develops 134bhp per litre of displacement.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/golf/63778/vw-developing-10-speed-dsg

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/volkswagen-developing-10-speed-dsg-gearbox

http://www.4-traders.com/VOLKSWAGEN...r-Symposium-The-future-firmly-in-si-16779192/

 

[bhtooefr]

And the gear count arms race continues. Seriously, this is pointless, we're not talking about bicycles here, and Toyota's made a reasonably efficient CVT with no wear items, with the patents on it expiring in 2016-2017.

134 bhp/l TDIs is interesting to see, although 3000 bar scares me, given that even 1800 bar is hard for VW to pull off. The e-booster will be handy for tiny displacement engines, too - a single-cylinder, 53.6 hp, 400 cc TDI could be done that way - more powerful than the 800 cc TDI currently in the XL1. Or, more than CBEA power out of a 1.2 3-pot. Or, what was V8 TDI power only eight years ago, out of a 2.0. Or, 554 hp out of a 4.2 V8 - deep into supercar territory.

 

[WeLikeBananas]

And the gear count arms race continues. Seriously, this is pointless, we're not talking about bicycles here

Indeed. It's gotten more ridiculous than the Gillette/Schick "blade wars" (which, come to think of it, have been quite stagnant for a while)...

 

[SAdslcar]

He added that he still believed existing internal combustion engines had lots of potential, stating, “‘Since the year 2000, we’ve reduced the fuel consumption of our TDI and TSI engines by more than 30 per cent.
​

Thats not exactly true. Maybe on the gasoline powered cars. But not the TDI.
Our 99-03 ALH cars still get much better fuel mileage than new TDI's.​

 

[TDIMeister]

He's talking about fleet average fuel consumption. He is correct on that point.

 

[bhtooefr]

Keep in mind that our ALH cars weren't replaced by the CJAA, they were replaced by the 105 hp 1.6.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Thats not exactly true. Maybe on the gasoline powered cars. But not the TDI.​

Our 99-03 ALH cars still get much better fuel mileage than new TDI's.​

I like my new quiet Passat, but I respect-love my old farm tractor rattling 2000 Beetle TDi more.

I'm still heartbroken from getting the HPFP in my Passat replaced only after two months of use last January.

ALH cars are tanks in disguise!!!

 

[03_01_TDI]

Thats not exactly true. Maybe on the gasoline powered cars. But not the TDI.
Our 1.9l 90hp 99-03 ALH cars still get much better fuel mileage than new larger. 2.0 130hp clean TDI's.​

Fixed for you.

 

[03_01_TDI]

Transmission are the key to mpg. The ICE has been milked for nearly every bit of efficient operation. The only room for improvement is transmission and chassis.

I've driven the 7 speed dsg jetta and was really impressed. IMO a smaller 1.6l tdi with 80-90hp mated to a 7 speed dsg would be a great machine for mpg.

 

[PressEnter[]]

How much do these transmissions weigh? I thought size was the limiting factor in the number of gears they could stuff in a reasonable-sized diff.

I just hope they don't monkey with the manuals. 6 is plenty for me!

 

[03_01_TDI]

Skip gears. The corvettes and Camaroes have a skip shift that requires a 1-2 shift and then skip over several gears.

I almost never use every gear in order. 1-2-4-6 is common for me. Maybe third on the acceleration ramp for fun and speed then straight to six gear.

 

[bhtooefr]

I thought the GM V8 skip-shift was actually 1-4, and was enforced at less than WOT (by a plate guiding the shifter from 1st into 4th instead of 2nd - so 1-3 could be done, too).

 

[Lug_Nut]

It was, and it was self defeating as it encouraged WOT in first to permit use of 2nd and 3rd. Another stupid GM move to play the EPA economy tests.
First it was the mid 80's 'A' bodies with fixed windows in the rear doors (saved 15 lbs per car, put it into a lighter dyno class for the EPA test), and then mandated A/C to offset the lack of interior cooling and ventilation.

 

[kjclow]

Thats not exactly true. Maybe on the gasoline powered cars. But not the TDI.​

Our 99-03 ALH cars still get much better fuel mileage than new TDI's.​

My thought was that this is true for Europe but not for the North American market where we are given basically no choices when it comes to better efficiency diesel engines. There are currently three (IIRC). The Golf platform, the Passat platform, and the Toureg platform. None of which are offered with the Blue Motion adaptations.

To TDIMaster's OP: It doesn't matter what VWAG thinks of next, we won't get it.

 

[mrvermin]

No matter what the Boffins at VAG think up, the chances that we will see any iteration of it on this side of the planet are ..... Well..... Let's be honest... NONE.......

When it comes to the Cars that they ship over to us, we North Americans are relegated to the barn where we humbly wait for the burnt pan drippings and failed leftovers that no one at the Adults Table find palatable.

Please Sir.... Can I have another??

MrVermin

 

[booty]

How much do these transmissions weigh? I thought size was the limiting factor in the number of gears they could stuff in a reasonable-sized diff.
I just hope they don't monkey with the manuals. 6 is plenty for me!

My six speed manual Mazda3 is overkill. A good wide ratio five speed such as the one in my 2000 Beetle or my 1998 Camry were ideal. I am not sure where the limit is on DSG's but 8 or 9 is near it.

 

[RNDDUDE]

At some point (8 gears?...9 gears?...) it would seem you would be better off with a CVT.

 

[powerfool]

Indeed. It's gotten more ridiculous than the Gillette/Schick "blade wars" (which, come to think of it, have been quite stagnant for a while)...

Yeah, except I greatly anticipate the next extra blade. Cartridges last longer and the shave is easier. If you are shifting gears that often, it gets kind of hard to actually transfer power to the wheels.

 

[bhtooefr]

Well, it only works on the DSG. See, the DSG actually maintains continuous power to the wheels, because it can have two clutches partially engaged at once.

(Downside is, you get slippage, which means heat.)

 

[TDIMeister]

Well, it only works on the DSG. See, the DSG actually maintains continuous power to the wheels, because it can have two clutches partially engaged at once.

(Downside is, you get slippage, which means heat.)

Wait - what? The clutches are not always partially engaged at once. Only for split-seconds between shifts.

 

[powerfool]

I understand that the DSG is "better" than an automatic, and according to the VW dealership in 2009, I would never want a real manual (especially since VW wouldn't offer a real manual... until they did again). However, just by operation, you are going to have points in shifting where there is no power transfer. Sure, it may be limited, but it will exist. The double-clutch is more of a function of it being essentially two transmissions, at least that is my understanding, and that is where the speed in shifting came into play because the other transmission was already in gear waiting to be used. If that's the case, there is no way that the clutches stay partially engaged... you have to switch from one transmission to the other (which was the whole point of the double-clutch).

I could be wrong as I have researched it myself... it is just second-hand information... but it seems to make logical sense.

 

[Second Turbo]

diesel-electric, on the other hand ...

> At some point (8 gears?...9 gears?...) it would seem you would be better off with a CVT.

You are never better off with a CVT

I see it as the inverse. Once you have 8 or 9 gears, there's no material advantage to a CVT, even if the CVT was as robust, efficient and quiet.

 

[bhtooefr]

Wait - what? The clutches are not always partially engaged at once. Only for split-seconds between shifts.

Not always, but if you're shifting through TEN SPEEDS, probably more than they are now with six or seven.

(And, DCTs really don't have an interruption in power transfer, when tuned correctly, because they do, for a few milliseconds at a time, have two gears engaged to both the wheels and the engine at once, using clutch slippage to make up the difference.)

 

[03_01_TDI]

• A look at the fuel economy and driving performance data of the Golf, with and without 7-speed DSG, underscores the progress made. This much can be said right away: The new 122-PS TSI on the Golf is a masterpiece of fuel efficiency. Shifted by a manual 6-speed gearbox, the charged gasoline engine in the Golf consumes just 6.3 liters of fuel per 100 kilometers – and this is even less than that of models with lower PS output. However, when the same Golf TSI is paired with the new 7-speed DSG, average fuel consumption (95 ROZ octane Super) is reduced even further: to just 5.9 liters. Similarly, CO2 emissions are reduced from 149 g/km to 139 g/km. These are data that just a short while ago would have been considered inconceivable for a gasoline engine in this performance class. Especially for an automatic: Compared to a conventional automatic with torque converter, the new DSG even consumes up to 20 percent less fuel!


Your not shifting through 10 speeds. The trans would probably use 2nd gear to start and depending in how hard the fuel pedal is used it could down shift to first. Besides this is all done by the ecu. All you need to do is place it in D.

10 gears does sound like a lot- big rig diesels have 10-16 gears.

I test drove the jetta hybrid with seven speed dsg- It was butter smooth. Connected like a manual trans should feel but no feeling when shifting. I was impressed.

 

[bhtooefr]

However, big rig diesels have quite low power - 300-600ish hp - pulling as much as 80,000 lbs.

And, speed of acceleration isn't the name of the game there, so as long as it can get to speed and stay there, it's fine. So, a long time shifting isn't a problem.

 

[03_01_TDI]

The same applies when you use a 90hp motor to propel 3200lbs of car. Speed of acceleration is important as consumers don't buy slow cars. A "long time shifting". The 7 or even 10 speed dsg requires about .5 seconds for only one shift. You reach down and move it from p to d and drive off.

 

[bhtooefr]

The same doesn't apply precisely BECAUSE consumers don't buy slow cars in the US.

(They do in Europe, though, which is why VAG can do an 85 hp 1.2 TSI, and it sells like hotcakes.)

 

[kjclow]

My 90 hp beetle never felt that slow due to the low end torque of the diesel engine. At least it never felt that slow until I took the JSW out for its first spin. One of those days where I never looked back.

 

[bhtooefr]

Mind you, I actually think my Golf with RC3 is too fast at times - I don't have to drive it properly to maintain speed, I can just squirt some more power in. Might turn it down to RC2 just so I can get more of the slow-car-fast thing going, instead of fast-car-slow.

 

[TDI2000Zim]

My 90 hp beetle never felt that slow due to the low end torque of the diesel engine. At least it never felt that slow until I took the JSW out for its first spin. One of those days where I never looked back.

4 years of having acceleration 'issues' with my 2000 Beetle TDi, I was conditioned to cross intersections with heavy traffic with utmost timidity, so much so, that even today (4/30/'13), almost 6 months after getting my Passat SE, I still refrain from crossing the road unless there are no cars 200 feet away from the crossing.

I know, it can be an age related issue, but 58 hp extra hasn't cured me yet.