What the ****, VW? (Clutch slave cylinder ranting)

[ilcylic]

'10 JSW TDI, 6MT, 95k miles.

On the way up to Moab from Albuquerque this weekend, I went to push the clutch in around Cortez and... discovered that it was already in. Coasted over to the conveniently placed auto parts store, and after some monkeying around, discovered what was likely a blown clutch slave cylinder.

After much text messaging and monkey motion, I got the car towed back to ABQ and delivered to the service bay at the dealership. They tell me that in the 6 speed manuals, VW, IN THEIR INFINITE WISDOM has apparently integrated the clutch slave cylinder with the throwout bearing. Meaning that in order to change the clutch slave cylinder, they have to R&R the transmission, and oh by the way, when it goes it tends to soak the clutch in hydraulic fluid so you need one of those too.

That's like, early 90's Toyota levels of "retarded sadistic *******" from the engineers there. What goddamn ****tarded ****wizard thought this was a good idea? GAH!

 

[oilhammer]

You haven't worked on many cars, have you? That is quite common among other makes as well. Does seem kinda dumb, but they rarely seem to fail.

On the old (pre-GM failtrain) Saab 900, you could change the clutch without separating the engine from the transmission. Does that mean every other car on the planet that requires such an operation is stupid? No, not really.

 

[ilcylic]

Just got off the phone with the service department. Apparently the clutch for this transmission includes an $800 non-machinable dual mass flywheel as well. So, replacement of the slave + clutch + flywheel is looking like $2400. **** you, Volkswagen.

 

[ilcylic]

You haven't worked on many cars, have you?

Only a hundred or so. This is the first time I've ever seen this. The VW 5 speeds aren't like this. No Toyota car or truck I've ever worked on had one. No Plymouth or Dodge I've ever worked on has had one.

They turned a $200 operation that doesn't frag the clutch disc into a $2400 operation that does. So yes, I think it's bloody stupid.

 

[oilhammer]

Only a hundred or so. This is the first time I've ever seen this. .

Yeah, I figured that. You learned something new today then!

And I could fix that for a LOT less. You needn't buy the whole assembly. Valeo makes a nice DMF to SMF conversion kit, retail is around $800, comes with everything including the hydraulic release bearing assembly, and the labor is only 6 hours.

So at our shop, I'd have you fixed and out the door for about $1500... only about $200 more than the same thing on the 5sp cars.

FWIW, the best selling vehicle in the USA for some several decades running, when equipped with a manual gearbox, has a hydraulic release bearing assembly inside the bellhousing.

 

[kobrian85]

VW, IN THEIR INFINITE WISDOM has apparently integrated the clutch slave cylinder with the throwout bearing. Meaning that in order to change the clutch slave cylinder, they have to R&R the transmission, and oh by the way, when it goes it tends to soak the clutch in hydraulic fluid so you need one of those too.

I had a 2008 A3, found myself headed out the door one evening and went out to start the car and the 3rd pedal was "gone"... Sure as ****, it was on the floor... I went and looked under the car, and it pissed fluid all over my garage. Had it towed to my trusty mechanic to gave me the same diagnosis. Slave cylinder failed - blew hydraulic fluid all over the inners - I needed to replace the slave cylinder, the clutch needed replacement because it was saturated with fluid and ruined, and the fly wheel also has to be replaced. All in all I think I dropped about $1600 in repairs. And like you, at the time of the failure I was around 96,000 miles.

 

[Henrick]

Sounds like a storm in the glass. You even don't know for sure that the cylinder has puked the fluid onto the clutch but already panic.

Do have the trans removed and inspect, then accordingly thing what to do next.

If I were you, I would visit oilhammer. He sems to be very sincere and faithful, besides he is a real VW guru. I wish someone as good as him would be available in my area, then I wouldn't need to spend hundreds of Euros on useless diagnosis of alternator, brake system, G83 sensor and other problems I have faced....

 

[ilcylic]

Sounds like a storm in the glass. You even don't know for sure that the cylinder has puked the fluid onto the clutch but already panic.

It's less "panic" and more "rage", really. And yes, of course I'm going to have them look at it before I spend the extra cash.

If I were you, I would visit oilhammer. He sems to be very sincere and faithful, besides he is a real VW guru. I wish someone as good as him would be available in my area[.]

I wish someone as good as him would be available in my area too, since oilhammer's 1600 km away...

 

[dadster]

Wow! This thread gives a whole new perspective to the DSG vs. Manual Trans debate!

Sorry for your trouble though...

 

[Ol'Rattler]

Not really. A really stupid place to put the slave, but still a lot cheaper and straight forward fix than a DSG with internal problems.

To me, a DSG is a lot like a DMF, It's not a matter of "if" it fails, it's a matter of when. Just an opinion...............

 

[amstel78]

Wow! This thread gives a whole new perspective to the DSG vs. Manual Trans debate!

Sorry for your trouble though...

I don't know about others, but I'll still take a manual gear box over DSG; less long-term maintenance involved and less chance of failure.

 

[apples12]

so what your saying is that your slave cylinder blew with no warning at all?

really is a PITA with where it is i guess and the fact it almost takes everything with it

 

[GCBUG00]

Not sure what year the Concentric Slave Cylinder (CSC) first appeared, maybe early '80's in Jeeps. Soon Ford followed, Chevy in '96 and they show up scattered throughout many platforms. No fork, direct straight push against the clutch but much as Oilhammer pointed out almost all require trans R&R. The Saab 900 is a really unique. If the CSC failed on the 900 you needed a special substitute clutch release tool and spring retaining ring to remove the clutch. Nice.

Trivia question, any other sold in USA vehicle that also allows clutch R&R w/o trans removal or even separation of the trans from the engine like the Saab? Here's a hint. You will not see the release bearing when you remove the trans.

A major mfgr of DMF's published a shop flyer poster and stated that the DFM must be replaced with a clutch change.

Sorry to hear your issue.

Only precursor to a CSC failure might be a loss of brake fluid, topping off required or a weeping of brake fluid coming off of trans case.

 

[GCBUG00]

FWIW, the best selling vehicle in the USA for some several decades running, when equipped with a manual gearbox, has a hydraulic release bearing assembly inside the bellhousing.

F-150 and the plethora of Rangers too. Did I get it correct?

 

[Vince Waldon]

...and Mazda B4000s.

 

[Jamos]

Funny timing.
This just happened to us on Friday.
2010 Jetta Sportwagon 6sp manual. 82k on the clock.

Girlfriend started the car and drove about a mile when the pedal went to the floor.
Turned it off, stuck in traffic...
Fluid puddle on the ground.

Shop says $500 for the clutch/release bearing/slave cylinder kit, and 9 hours for labor!

Huge bummer.
Really disappointed actually...I was just starting to think about selling the car last month.
Not sure what we'll do now.

 

[oilhammer]

Man, you guys are really getting screwed.... It is 7.6 hr labor book time to R&R that transmission, which is pretty generous. The hydraulic release bearing would have to be disconnected from the hydraulics anyways and be bled, so there is no "extra" there. The only extra would be the actual swapping of the bearing itself, which takes all of 30 seconds, although book time does allow an extra .2 hr (that is POINT-TWO) for that...again quite generous.

The part can be had for about $100, maybe $150 tops. Luk makes them. And it is very doubtful you'd have damaged the clutch itself under most circumstances. But even if it did, a genuine reman clutch assembly, part number 022-141-015-SX should only cost around $400.

BTW, on the 5 speeds, if the slave fails, it also will leak into the bellhousing.

 

[ilcylic]

Oilhammer: Yeah, 7.6 hours + $150 sounds roughly about like the $950 quote they gave me to swap the CSC. Then add $400 for the clutch and pressure plate, $800 for the DMF which is apparently not resurfaceable, and is recommended to be changed when the clutch is done. I dunno how much labor is called for to do that actual clutch and flywheel swap, but that sounds pretty close to the $2400 they quoted for the whole job, once you factor in tax. That said, the shop just called and said the flywheel looks to be in pretty good shape and they think they can get by with just lightly scuffing it up. I'm going to go take a look at it over lunch, and see if I agree. So that might save $800 off the total. I dunno. I don't want to "save" $800 now and have it be $1600 later, if the DMF fails for whatever reason. :-/

 

[akjdouglass]

a DSG is a lot like a DMF, It's not a matter of "if" it fails, it's a matter of when

A slave cylinder is a lot like a DSG..... is a lot like a DMF.... is a lot like that sky is falling hysteria of lore (just hasn't happened, yet).
We could've avoided all these high-tech automotive nightmares had our ancestors stuck to the proven reliability of horse and wagon. Just an opinion...............

 

[GCBUG00]

Not sure what year the Concentric Slave Cylinder (CSC) first appeared, maybe early '80's in Jeeps. Soon Ford followed, Chevy in '96 and they show up scattered throughout many platforms. No fork, direct straight push against the clutch but much as Oilhammer pointed out almost all require trans R&R. The Saab 900 is a really unique. If the CSC failed on the 900 you needed a special substitute clutch release tool and spring retaining ring to remove the clutch. Nice.

Trivia question, any other sold in USA vehicle that also allows clutch R&R w/o trans removal or even separation of the trans from the engine like the Saab? Here's a hint. You will not see the release bearing when you remove the trans.

Nobody tried the trivia question, here's the answer to another vehicle where the transmission stays in place for clutch R&R.

1978-81 Nissan FWD like the F-10 and 310. You remove a Primary Drive Gear Assy then the clutch somehow is removable, never seen one let alone done one. The release bearing is at the opposite end of the trans and pushes on a pushrod to release button in the pressure plate, just like the Rabbit's had, sorta.

 

[NYHD]

Man, you guys are really getting screwed.... It is 7.6 hr labor book time to R&R that transmission, which is pretty generous. The hydraulic release bearing would have to be disconnected from the hydraulics anyways and be bled, so there is no "extra" there. The only extra would be the actual swapping of the bearing itself, which takes all of 30 seconds, although book time does allow an extra .2 hr (that is POINT-TWO) for that...again quite generous.

The part can be had for about $100, maybe $150 tops. Luk makes them. And it is very doubtful you'd have damaged the clutch itself under most circumstances. But even if it did, a genuine reman clutch assembly, part number 022-141-015-SX should only cost around $400.

BTW, on the 5 speeds, if the slave fails, it also will leak into the bellhousing.

Oilhammer: Yeah, 7.6 hours + $150 sounds roughly about like the $950 quote they gave me to swap the CSC. Then add $400 for the clutch and pressure plate, $800 for the DMF which is apparently not resurfaceable, and is recommended to be changed when the clutch is done. I dunno how much labor is called for to do that actual clutch and flywheel swap, but that sounds pretty close to the $2400 they quoted for the whole job, once you factor in tax. That said, the shop just called and said the flywheel looks to be in pretty good shape and they think they can get by with just lightly scuffing it up. I'm going to go take a look at it over lunch, and see if I agree. So that might save $800 off the total. I dunno. I don't want to "save" $800 now and have it be $1600 later, if the DMF fails for whatever reason. :-/

My 2013 TDI Beetle just wet the bed as well - slave cylinder/ release bearing/ fluid everywhere. Do I need the DMF as well? What is the decision point with that? Can anyone share more specifics on the Valeo conversion kit and what that entails? Amy help on sorting out this mess would be appreciated!

 

[MrCypherr]

It depends. Since youre going in there, might not be a bad idea to do a clutch if you can find one for the right price. As for a DMF, again depends on the condition. I bought a DMF and clutch kit for my 2013 for $650. LuK brand may I add. Came with the slave cylinder/release bearing too.

 

[Abacus]

Yep, the slave just went on my mom’s 2012 Wagon as well. It’s at the garage now. I’ll take the external slave on my B4 any day of the week.

 

[lemoncurd]

just weighing in here, i had my DSG R/R'd couple years ago for a DMF..... $400 in labor..
with the new labor rates it probably closer to 500 or 600 now, but still not near the prices you all are saying... $2,400??? youre getting ripped off. thats the "go take it somewhere else" price to me

if youre dropping the transmission, just swap everything back there. better safe than sorry. spending an extra $400 on a DMF now is better than spending it later AND on the labor to remove the transmission AGAIN

thinking about having my rear main seal and crank position sensor swapped when i replace my DMF again. might add a clutch pack to that too. rolled over to 239k miles yesterday, original clutch pack!

 

[MrCypherr]

Lets hope 9 years ago he didnt actually pay $2400

 

[ezshift5]

At this point - - - would I be out of line - - - to ask if the VW Jetta 1.4L EA211 5M has a CDV?

 

[lemoncurd]

Lets hope 9 years ago he didnt actually pay $2400

LOL i didnt check the OP's post date!!!!
but yes... i hope he did not pay $2,400 9 years ago.

 

[mikerob97]

Yeah, I figured that. You learned something new today then!

And I could fix that for a LOT less. You needn't buy the whole assembly. Valeo makes a nice DMF to SMF conversion kit, retail is around $800, comes with everything including the hydraulic release bearing assembly, and the labor is only 6 hours.

So at our shop, I'd have you fixed and out the door for about $1500... only about $200 more than the same thing on the 5sp cars.

FWIW, the best selling vehicle in the USA for some several decades running, when equipped with a manual gearbox, has a hydraulic release bearing assembly inside the bellhousing.

Oil Hammer - I noticed that you mentioned the Valeo DMF to SMF conversion kits. Have customers been happy with this conversion? I noticed this is a post from 2015, can you comment on any long term issues that you have encountered from this conversion?

I am contemplating this conversion if / when I need a clutch (or throw out bearing) replacement.

Thanks,
Mike

 

[lemoncurd]

Oil Hammer - I noticed that you mentioned the Valeo DMF to SMF conversion kits. Have customers been happy with this conversion? I noticed this is a post from 2015, can you comment on any long term issues that you have encountered from this conversion?

I am contemplating this conversion if / when I need a clutch (or through out bearing) replacement.

Thanks,
Mike

SMF conversions on CR TDI's is NOT recommended!
do some searching on why not. the short answer is you will destroy the shift forks and synchro's in the transmission.

inb4 anecdoctal "well i have a SMF on mine for XX miles!!"
frankly don't care. hundreds upon hundreds of other people have walked this same path, and ended up needing to swap a transmission later on. and no the fluidampr isnt some magic bullet which is going to change the engine harmonics so drastically to not destroy steel synchro's / forks.

if you swap a brass 5 speed in to use with the CR and use a fluidampr you MIGHT be okay..

 

[MrCypherr]

Do NOT do a SMF on a CR 6speed. Unless you plan on doing a swap in the future. Also, if someone swaps a 5speed in just to use a SMF, they may need to get mentally checked out.