What have I gotten myself into...

[tdibeliever]

I now have a 99.5 A4 Jetta TDI to go along with my '96 GTI TDI hotrod. I traded the PO my '88 Coupe for it. It's a 5spd. Mechanically the car is rough. It takes 5-10 sec of cranking to get it to fire. The PO has been using ether to start it (probably trashed the rings) due to a weak battery and lord knows what else. There's a pronounced vibration while driving. The only spot of rust is on the trunk lid just below the plate. I'll report back with more info as I dive into it.

http://picasaweb.google.com/potter.jake/99JettaTDI#

 

[Herm TDI]

The 99.5 TDI has a well known history of "Difficault to start when warm".
To isolate this problem you can disconnect the engine temp sensor and then start the engine. The engine should start near instantly (after the glow plug (GP) duty cycle.

If your engine does start as I've discribed then your 99.5 TDI is in the same boat as many others. Your best fix is to have the car's ECU chipped.
This will eliminate the "difficault to start when warm" problem and at the same time provide up-date to the ECU mapping files. The level of performance modification is also done which is not a topic in your current question (room for another thread).

I had another 99.5 here at my place a few weeks ago with thre same problem. The owner has owned this TDI for 18 months and thought it was "just normal for a diesel".
When he drove the car after I fixrd a few other problems and had disconnected the eng. temp sensor he could not beleave it was the same car he brought to me.

There is a wealth of information on this issue here on the forums:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=134622&highlight=difficult+to+start+when+warm

I'm sure that you have checked the battery (level of charge) but if you haven't then by all means do so.

 

[tdibeliever]

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately long cranking when warm appears to be the least of my worries. I reset the timing (pump pulley was a tooth off). Mechanical timing is dead on now. The long crank to start (cold) persisted and it ran even worse than before. Large clouds of blue smoke rolled from the tailpipe, the engine was shaking badly. Once it warmed up it wouldn't visibly smoke at idle. It smokes (more blue than grey) on revving. It doesn't rev smoothly. Idle is still rough (engine shakes quite a bit). It feels as though there's a cylinder or two missing. I cracked all 4 of the injector lines while the car was running. Each line caused the engine to run eqaully poorly. Cylinders 1+4 produce more niose than 2+3 at idle. All 4 injectors have common and consistant levels of noise. The outlets on the injection pump seem to sound about the same. The cam lobes look evenly worn and I didn't see any damage to the lifters.

Once warm I checked the timing with VCDS and it still shows retarded. Waaaayyyyy retarded. Like 5-9 with a fuel temp of 149. Injector balance was between -.54 and .56 across the cylinders. Seems pretty balanced to me. No CELs until I unplugged the needle lift sensor or the MAF. IQ was around 4.5 as I remember. FWIW- unplugging the needle lift sensor didn't change the way the engine ran.

I wish I had a bore scope. I'm dying to know what the cylinders look like. I'm going borrow a compression tester and I'll report back with my findings.

 

[puter]

How can you say the mechanical timing is dead on when VCDS says it is way retarded?

 

[tdibeliever]

"Mechanical timing" is spot on. The pointer in the trans bellhousing is directly above the notch cast into the flywheel. With that mark set and the timing belt tensioner "nub" and "notch" alignment verified the pin slides into the face of the pump and the cam bar slides into the driver's side as a "snug fit", no forcing required or free play. The ECU has some control over timing as seen in VCDS.

The PO seemed to think the Needle Lift Sensor was crap. Not knowing much of the previous history or who's worked on it I'm starting with the basics and working my way up/out. The PO also told me it needs an EGR and somewhere around 90k it had a new head put on it (126k now).

 

[Ski in NC]

I wonder if someone popped off the IP pulley hub, then put it on a little bit off. Lock pin won't work if that is the case.

Might try advancing the timing using the three IP hub bolts/slots until vcds timing shows correct. Advance is rotating IP shaft cw with pulley held still, viewing from passenger side.

 

[tdibeliever]

I'll look closer at it in the next couple of days. I hadn't considered that someone may have tinkered with the hub...

 

[supton]

I'd do a compression test while you're at it. I've read (well, it was here, but seems reasonable) that ether is way hard on rings. It certainly can't be a good thing if the glow plugs are working.

 

[puter]

VCDS will tell you your mechanical timing in basic settings.

When you say VCDS is showing timing as way retarded, are you talking about the mechanical timing?

If you are then it seems like VCDS is contradicting what you are saying you see physically. The common way of correcting the mechanical timing is to adjust the IP.

I may be misunderstanding, please correct me if I am.

 

[bayshorecs]

I have found the pump pin never seems to slide in easy if the timing is set right. Even with everything locked down, I have had to use a wrench and VERY little pressure to turn the sprocket a fraction of a fraction of a turn for the pin to slide in.

Why don't you set the timing with VCDS and adjusting the pump using the normal procedures and then see where you are at?

If the pump hub was moved, you will have a tough time get everything right (this time and the next TB change...).

 

[tdibeliever]

I can try to adjust the timing based on the graph, but I'm struggling with why it should be needed. With all of my other TDIs the holding tools were always able to put me between the red and green lines. Why should this car be any different? That being said, if the "Basic setting -TDI timing graph" is just mechanical timing then I should be able to reindex the injection pump with some caclulations and careful measurements, true? I thought the timing shown in the graph was influenced electromechanically from within the pump by the ECU based on inputs from the crank position sensor, Needle Lift Sensor, and various temp/pressure sensors. If this isn't the case then why does the engine have to be at operating temp to have meaningful info in this graph?

I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just trying to fully understand why my "logic" may be wrong.

 

[bayshorecs]

IIRC, the "engine at operating temp" was more of an issue prior to the graph functionality in the current versions on VCDS. Before, you were reviewing the raw values not plotted with temp adjustment.

With mechanical settings, most times, it is between the lines and most times slight retarded based on MY experience. I have seen it just ont he graph as well.

Every car is different, every pump has different wear, someone may have jacked with the pump, etc.

If every car as able to be address the exact same way, gurus would be out of work.

 

[tdibeliever]

Currently VCDS reports mostly with "too retarded to graph". A few times I saw it just pop up onto the graph with numbers like 5,6,9. After the compression/leak tests I'll dial timing back into it and see where that takes me. On a positive note we shouldn't have to worry about mosquitos in the neighborhood for a while.

 

[bayshorecs]

Re-reading your description, i would say you might be in for some problems ahead. With the blue smoke, it sounds like a fueling issue though. Get the compression test done to rule that out.

PO used ether = bad.

On a side note, i had some JUNK fake "bosch" nozzles that did the exact same thing. They had bad spray patterns causing a lot of smoke on start, hard start and rough idle. The car ran good when warm, but something was "wrong". I swapped out to PP nozzles and everything went away. Granted, my timing was set perfect though which yours is not. After awhile, the valve guides started to leak down after 220k miles on the head and it could have used a rebuild due to normal wear and caused smoke on startup.

Point being, if the PO used ether, what kind of fuel did he use? Nozzles trashed? IP trashed? etc.

Get the picture?

 

[tdibeliever]

Oh yeah, I get it. I'd intended to strip it down this winter anyway as I just can't leave stuff alone. A full inspection and renewal as needed was in the plans. Before I tear it down I wanted to have a known "quantity". Get the silly stuff ironed out now so come spring (or whenever it's finished) I can start it up knowing that it came apart running well (or at least know what I need to replace and why) so it should restart running well. No sense in reinstalling a trashed pump or defective sensor. I figure at a minimum new bearings, nozzles, rings, seals, clutch/flywheel (single mass probably)

 

[tdibeliever]

Had some time to dink with the Jetta today. Here's what I found:
I don't think engine cranks at the right speed for starters. Even with no glow plugs it seems slow. I know the battery is weak and I see an aftermarket starter in it that may not be the right one for the car (doesn't much matter as sometimes it won't disengage the flywheel -so it needs to come out).
Cold-dry compression test with a battery charger
1-418psi
2-420psi
3-419psi
4-410psi all within 10%, but it seems low by TDIclub standards

Cold-wet comp test (1/3 cap of oil) w/ battery charger
1-470psi
2-500psi
3-480psi
4-455psi just at 10%, but still isn't right. Seems like new rings might be in order- thoughts? I'll try to get warm #s this weekend.

I popped the IP case relief valve out and found the collar laying in the bottom of the res. and the plunger was stuck in the valve bore. I freed up the plunger, cleaned it all up and reassembled. I decided to run the car after that and see what I was working with. The car still takes 5-10sec to fire. Still shakes like a leaf on a tree at idle. What I wasn't prepared for was the change in timing. During the warmup time it still smokes, but it seems to be less than 2 days ago. After it was warm the Basic setting-TDI timing graph was showing a timing # of 33-36. IQ was around 1.6-1.9. I blindly adjusted the timing (one try only) and it came up to 69 (very top of the graph). I hammer modded the IP and set the IQ to hover between 3.4-3.6. There is a tiny stream of bubbles in the fuel line. The PO just changed the filter and widget so I'll check the seals and hose connections later. It drives ok, power seems smooth enough, but nothing to get excited about. The vibration while driving is RPM dependent. Not sure if it's the DMF going bad (clutch feels fine), or if it's internal to the engine yet.

After I got back from the brief road test I ran the output test in VCDS. Two things I thought odd- No clicking from the N75 and I didn't notice anything changing during the N18 test either. So, time to troubleshoot those things.

I'm inclided to get some diesel purge for the IP, change the engine oil(smells like fuel), and D/R the N18 and N75 issues. I doubt that will fix the shakes, but at least I'll be closer to a "known" starting point.

Please feel free to comment and/ or offer ideas on what I have layed out here.

Thanks,
Jake

 

[tdibeliever]

I've been sorta busy in the garage today. I didn't bother to get warm compression numbers as I was convinced I needed to open the engine anyway. So, that's what I did. I popped the head off and there was evidence everywhere that the head had been replaced. I haven't checked it out yet, but at first glance it appears to be in good shape. I turned my attention to the shortblock and found a few things. First off, the oilpan has been replaced. The prod. year stamp shows "00". There's smoething rattling around inside the clutch bellhousing (sounds light like a piece of spring wire). The cylinder bores look pretty uniform, no gaulling, and not much crosshatching left. There's a bit of a ridge at the tops of the bores. I'll measure that up later. Things started gettting interesting when I pulled the rod caps. 2 and 3 have concentrated wear on one edge of the shell half (pics to come). Anybody care to wager that the head was a result of a missed T-belt change? I'll have the rods inspected to be sure, but I'm pretty sure they're bent. I have a different set that I can put in so it's really no biggy. The pistons look pretty good upon initial inspection. No stuck or cracked rings. The top rings are pretty loose, I'll measure everyting once they're clean. Hopefully I can reuse them. I'll post more as things progress.

On another note, I've been poking around the car and found some cool things. All 4 doors are filled with MB Quart QSD216 component systems. Those things were worth a small fortune when new. They still sound great even though they're hooked to a stock headunit. The car has a Bilstein suspension kit on it. HDs all around and a matched set of springs. Yeah! It's got E-code headlights w/ fogs up front, a Euro headlight switch inside as well. There's also a bum swaybar end link on the driver's side- no extra charge! It has helper air bags in the rear springs, a trailer hitch, and trailer brake controller inside. I'll pull that stuff out as time goes on.

I'm already looking forward to driving this one soon. Perhaps around Thanksgiving.

 

[tdibeliever]

Well, As promised, there are new pics in the following album. FYI all pics are in order of cyl1-cyl4.

http://picasaweb.google.com/potter.jake/99JettaTDI#

 

[tdibeliever]

I plucked the engine and trans from the body today. When I split the two I found some of the remains of the Dual Mass Flywheel. There are new pics up in the album showing the carnage.
It took a large prybar to release the pressure plate and I think it's gonna take a cut off wheel to cut the spokes around the flywheel bolts to remove it. Oh Joy! Judging by the extreme offset of the center flywheel I'd say I've found my RPM dependent vibration. I'm going to send the rods and crank out to be inspected after seeing this. Perhaps the rods aren't bent after all. G60 flywheel and SBC here I come.

 

[tdibeliever]

Just a little update here
. I cut the center out of the flywheel the other day so I could get at the bolts. A cut-off wheel made fairly quick work of it. I stripped the rest of the parts from the block. Everything was going along just fine until I pulled the #3 Main cap. The journal is distorted and the bearing shells show some major damage. The lower shell has large sections missing from the middle of the bearing and the upper shell is beat down and mushroomed over. The shells are loose within the cap. With the setup I have I was able to measure .003" run-out on the journal in one area. My tooling wouldn't allow for an accurate measurement across the journal, so I'll have to wait until the machine shop meaures it to fully understand the extent of the damage. The other journals and bearngs show damage/wear as well, but not near as bad as #3. They however don't show any run-out.



I cleaned everything up today and I'll haul it all to the shop tomorrow.


My mind is set on an 02A 22lb flywheel and a South Bend stage 3 street clutch.


The cylinder bores are all well with factory specs so the shop will just hone 'em. I still haven't mic'ed the pistons yet, but so far I see no reason to toss them.


After seeing the #3 journal and noticing the oilpan was replaced I'm not convinced that the timing belt broke. Now I'm wondering if the engine ran out of oil when it smacked the pan. It seems to explain the observed damage better. I'll still have the rods inspected and rebuilt as needed.


I'm selling off most of my gasser parts so the toy fund is growing. I have a line on a few flywheels now and hope to be ordering rebuild parts and a clutch kit by late next week.


I like the Cat yellow on my previous engines, but I'm thinking Lime Green for this block.

There's more pics in the album.

 

[tdibeliever]

I spoke w/ the Machine shop today. It's not great, nor cheap, but it's all fixable. They'll be re-bushing the little ends of the rods, The crank will be turned to 1st under, and the block needs to be line-bored. I should be picking it up later next week. I'll start ordering parts on Monday. Perhaps we'll see smoke for Christmas.

 

[jgueld]

Love the writeup. Keep us update!

 

[tdibeliever]

1 order down 1 or 2 more to go. I spoke with the machine shop today. Turns out it's going to be next week before I get the parts back now. I guess the crank was just picked up yesterday to be straightened and ground. Sigh... I was really hoping to spend some time on it this weekend.

Yesterday I ordered the block seals, a head set, and a complete clutch package. I cheaped out and went VR6/stock weight G60. I couldn't swing the extra for the SBC just yet. I'm temped to split my GTI and swap clutches as that car has a stage 3 in it already and I'm going to pull the power adders off it anyway. My next order should consist of a T-Belt kit, head gasket, and some other service items.

I guess in the meantime I can continue detailing parts to reinstall.

 

[tdibeliever]

I got my 1st parts order in the other day. Much to my surprise GAP had shipped two clutch kits. I called them to get a calltag to return one with. For my honesty they're getting me a new oil pump. I should be ordering a timing belt kit early next week. After that I should only need to order main bearings to begin assembly (holding off 'til I get the crank back to confirm dimensions). With the shortblock assembled I'll measure up for the head gasket thickness and get that gasket coming - hopefully by the end of next week. Then I'm figuring a week or so of puttering to get it all buttoned back up. So, sometime between Christmas and New Years I should be going for a test drive.

 

[tdibeliever]

I spoke w/ the machine shop yesterday. Crank is still not back, and the rod bushings aren't right. IDs were somehwere around 21mm. I also realized that VW doesn't offer undersized main bearings for the crank yesterday. Imagine my surprise... I've ordered up a set of undersized bearings for the 1z/ahu block p/n068 198 493 and 056 105 567B. The last number may not be needed, but I didn't want to leave anything to chance so I ordered it as well. I believe it'll be fine as the standard sized bearings are the same p/n. The conrod bushings are p/n 028 105 431C. I also called tdiparts and ordered head bolts and both a 2 and 3 hole gasket. Bearings/bushings should be here Thurs. Gonna drop them off at the shop then and hope I can pick it all up on Fri. I reallllly don't want to be sitting over the holidays waiting for parts.

 

[tdibeliever]

Machine shop got word back on my crank. They went 10/10 on it so today I ordered a set of undersized rod bearings. I also picked up another set of main thrust bearings and pair of front swaybar end links (pass side was rattling during the pre-teardown test drive). The machine shop assured me again that I'd have everything for the weekend if I get in tomorrow with the bushings. I guess it's time to clean up the work bench and push the car outside to make room for paint/assembly.

It's been puzzling me as to why VW doesn't show undersized bearings for the crank and rods for this engine. The std bearings are the same as the 1z/ahu parts and there are u/s bearings available for them... Why not the ALH?

Surely I'm not the only person that's decided to rework a damaged crank. I guess I'll be a guinee pig.

 

[tdibeliever]

I uploaded a couple of pics of the block. Probably gonna put one more coat on tomorrow afternoon.

Still waiting on the u/s main bearings from the dealer. Hopefully I can pick them up tomorrow and start assembly on Sunday.

 

[Sugarkryptonite]

Looks good.

 

[tdibeliever]

Never heard back from the dealer. They said "we'll call you when they come in". I called yesterday. "Oh yeah, just came in this morning." I get there and there's only one half of one bearing shell there... ***. I called GAP- Glycol .25 u/ set will be here Wed. Sigh...

 

[tdibeliever]

Got the pistons cleaned up last night. Main bearings came in as promised yesterday. Looks like I'm all set for the build this weekend.