Water pouring out around rear windshield trim

[thechoochlyman]

I know there are countless threads about water leaks, but this seems a bit unique compared to what I've read.

I had the front windshield replaced, and it doesn't leak at all. No water is coming out anywhere except at both ends of the rear windshield trim. The back seats and floorboards are wet, particularly on the passenger's side. If it's raining hard while I'm driving I can see it dripping, and if I take a hard curve there will be a solid stream pouring out.

I'm not inclined to think it's the sunroof because of lack of water elsewhere. The front is totally dry, but I want to check anyway. I have the OEM rear glass and plan to have it taken out and reinstalled. Does this sound like a good course of action for my problem?

 

[Col Sanders]

Sounds like your rear sunroof drains are plugged up. Open roof and spray water in the rear corners. Then look on ground in front of rear tires for water. This only takes a minute. You will not see the drains because roof won't open that far back. If one is plugged water goes over to the other one.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Good idea, I'll give that a try.

I might just grab some plastic sheeting and duct tape to cover the sunroof up while the monsoon is still happening.

I put some flowable silicone along the back glass some time ago. This will let me know for sure if it's the back glass again or not.

 

[tdidieselbobny]

Be careful if you do try to remove back glass-IIRC,I think the plastic trim or another piece that goes around it is NLA-another member was looking for it a month or so ago....

 

[thechoochlyman]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I don't trust myself to do it without the tools, for that matter.

EDIT: I just went outside and duct-taped around the sunroof. It's supposed to rain even more soon. This should tell me enough, and I'll take out the headboard as soon as possible.

 

[ToddA1]

Removing the HL to pull the rear glass or to check your drains?

I think you should be able to see the drain tubes, behind the side panels in the trunk. I'd try blowing them out with air, first. Don't go crazy with the pressure. IIRC, the splices are just taped, not clamped.

If the above works, the HL does not need to be pulled to pull the glass. If the glass is original, you should have pull cords, like the windshield.

-Todd

 

[thechoochlyman]

Removing the HL to check the drains... it needs to be recovered anyhow. Figured it would be a good time. I'm concerned that they're probably disconnected, too.

I drove home through a monsoon yesterday and only saw a couple drips. I'm guessing it was probably just water that hadn't leaked out from before. I also poured a 2-pound bag of rice in my back seats and floorboards, but so far it doesn't seem to have absorbed much. :/

 

[thechoochlyman]

I'm also starting to think that perhaps one of the plastic door liners in the back is damaged or removed. I'm pretty sure the rear driver's side door is missing the liner, because that's the door I had to replace, although I don't have much moisture on that side.

I do know for a fact that the rear passenger's side door isn't sealing well at the top weatherstrip. I can open the door and see water droplets running down the inside of the door frame.

 

[Steve Addy]

The liners are very important. Unfortunately they often get destroyed when someone goes in to do a PW motor repair or some other thing. Also, making sure the adhesive is good too. I've seen water come in at the lower edge because of bad liner adhesion.

Steve

 

[thechoochlyman]

Any suggestions on replacing what's there? I'm sure the plastic sheeting won't be too hard to find, but the adhesive might be difficult.

 

[Steve Addy]

Any suggestions on replacing what's there? I'm sure the plastic sheeting won't be too hard to find, but the adhesive might be difficult.

The B3 cars used clear plastic sheeting, the B4 cars used black foam, which was nice stuff except that people ripped it up a lot. Finding replacements is a problem. The foam was contoured to fit the door card (arm rest etc) so be aware of that when installing sheet plastic.

I think you can get by with plastic sheeting but it might be a tad louder than before. For adhesive you can try small rope caulk which I've found works pretty well for bonding plastic sheeting to metal. You could also try the general trim adhesive sprays, the stuff that bonds fabric to headliners etc.

The worst thing I've seen used is duct tape, it tends to come loose after a short period of time and then the water comes back.

Steve

 

[ToddA1]

I'll bet that when you pull the remnants of the foam vapor barrier, there will be enough of the butyl tape left to hold the plastic. That stuff stays sticky, forever.

If not, I've used double sided tape, butyl tape, spray adhesive, Velcro, etc.. I never seal it 100%. My logic is, if water sits in a sealed edge, it sits until it evaporates. Water and metal aren't a great mix.

Although the vapor barrier is a line of defense, it shouldn't be used to be a water seal. If you have that much water going into your doors, you gave a larger issue.

-Todd

 

[Steve Addy]

I'll bet that when you pull the remnants of the foam vapor barrier, there will be enough of the butyl tape left to hold the plastic. That stuff stays sticky, forever.

If not, I've used double sided tape, butyl tape, spray adhesive, Velcro, etc.. I never seal it 100%. My logic is, if water sits in a sealed edge, it sits until it evaporates. Water and metal aren't a great mix.

Although the vapor barrier is a line of defense, it shouldn't be used to be a water seal. If you have that much water going into your doors, you gave a larger issue.

-Todd

It is being used as a water seal, there is no doubt about that.

If there's concern about bonding the plastic to the metal frame then put the sealant at the edge of the metal so there's no pocket behind the plastic for water to sit in.

I wouldn't want water sitting back there either, but I'm not going to invite it into the cabin as a solution to an adhesive problem.

Steve

 

[ToddA1]

I guess we have a difference of opinion there. My B4s and other VWs don't leak water, and the vapor barriers are not sealed 100%. I've used no sealant and just pushed the retaining pins through the plastic and didn't have an issue.

The plastic is referred to as a vapor barrier, not a water barrier, seal, shield, etc.

The entry points would be the window seal, the window scraper or the door handle gaskets. How is all of that water getting into the door, then making its way to (and running down) the inner door skin? I could see an occasional drip, but nothing that the OP is suggesting.

-Todd

 

[Steve Addy]

I guess we have a difference of opinion there. My B4s and other VWs don't leak water, and the vapor barriers are not sealed 100%. I've used no sealant and just pushed the retaining pins through the plastic and didn't have an issue.

The plastic is referred to as a vapor barrier, not a water barrier, seal, shield, etc.

The entry points would be the window seal, the window scraper or the door handle gaskets. How is all of that water getting into the door, then making its way to (and running down) the inner door skin? I could see an occasional drip, but nothing that the OP is suggesting.

-Todd

Hey Todd
I'm not suggesting that this is his issue, in fact I think his issue is something else based on what he's detailed in the original post.

And yes, everything I've read says that they're not technically called seals but I've seen enough VW's that leak from the lower portion of the plastic / foam covering to know that they do provide protection from water infiltration. Actually I think the parts catalog calls them a protective foil or sound absorber.

What I can say though is that there's no way to prevent water from entering at the scraper or around the lower corners of the glass, it's not possible, and I don't think it's designed to be sealed anyway, there are drain holes in the bottom of the door that allow the water to go out. But that plastic sheet (or foam) is all the keeps water inside the door from getting to the interior cabin, and I believe that's why it's sealed completely with adhesive all the way around.

Steve

 

[ToddA1]

No worries... you do what works for you and I do what works for me. This is a internet car forum. Here, we're all mechanics and subject matter experts.

I agree about the scrapers. They're more designed to keep large debris and wind noise out. I live in the NE, where rust is pretty prevalent. Any time I have a door opened up, I vacuum out the debris and hose it out, ensuring the drains are clear.

-Todd

 

[thechoochlyman]

Today's report:

I vacuumed out all the rice I had in my floorboards, but this one spot seems to be even wetter than before. Is it residual water from before I sealed up the sunroof, or something else? I may not know for a while. Looking around the bottom of my doors I can't see a spot where water has been flowing around them. The seats are no wetter, fortunately. But the cold air and continual rain is making it hard for my interior to dry out naturally.

The rear glass looks rather impenetrable with all the flowable silicone I put around it. It was probably never leaking back there anyway, just around the sunroof the whole time and I never knew it. But this is still sealed up tightly, I doubt anything is coming in here anymore.

 

[TDIDaveNH]

taping the sunroof like that is standard winter procedure for me. I wish GLXs did not have sunroofs...

 

[thechoochlyman]

If my wife didn't like it so much I'd be tempted to take that thing out and weld up the hole with some sheet metal...
I guess for now I'll just make sure to change the tape every couple weeks.

 

[Abacus]

I'm kinda late coming to the discussion due to being sick (medication makes me unfocused, tired, and very ill tempered, so I avoid human interactions), but that area you describe as being wet is probably from the rear door than the sunroof. I have seen it before with a misaligned seal or door (front or rear). The door foam panels are not the issue or you'd see water staining on the interior door card and they'd be wet.

 

[thechoochlyman]

There is a definitely a spot at the top of the door frame where it's not sealing up very well. Any tips on how to make it better? I don't think I should adjust the striker bolt any. One thing I've done in the past is roll the window down, sit in the seat, prop my bare feet against the door and gently tug in at the top of the door frame. Although I definitely feel like it's the weatherstripping getting worn out.

And hope you get to feeling better soon! I hate to hear that you've been under the weather.

 

[Abacus]

The rear doors are adjusted at the T40 bolts holding the door to the hinges. In/out is accomplished with shims.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Ok, this is what you're referencing, right? It looks like putting a shim under the hinge would only rotate the door slightly.

But I'm assuming I can just crack the bolt loose and pull the door inward a mil or so and tighten it back.

 

[Abacus]

Yes, that is correct. You would only shim the door if it fits too tightly to the body, like if it was in an accident. Otherwise small movements are all that's needed. It's pretty easy to see which way it needs to go by the alignment with the body and front door.

 

[thechoochlyman]

Went ahead and moved it this much, I can already tell it fits more snugly. Hopefully this will help some of those leaking problems!

EDIT: To anybody reading, the door Torx bolt is actually a T45.

 

[ToddA1]

There is a definitely a spot at the top of the door frame where it's not sealing up very well. Any tips on how to make it better? I don't think I should adjust the striker bolt any. One thing I've done in the past is roll the window down, sit in the seat, prop my bare feet against the door and gently tug in at the top of the door frame.

I just saw this part....

If the rear of the door is proud of the body, slightly crack the strike pin and tap it inwards. I'll mark the position of the pin with tape. When I see the reveal open about a 1/16", I tighten the pin and check my work.

If the outer skin of the door is sitting flush with the body, but the window frame is sticking out, you may need to tweak it. Your described method may work, but I've occasionally needed to go further. On older cars with no hinge adjustability, brute force is needed.

A piece of 2x4 (or whatever is handy) can be used to keep the door from closing, then gently push on the upper frame to slightly bend it in. Go easy and go slowly. The seal should/may compress more, curing your leak.

-Todd

 

[thechoochlyman]

Update: My sunroof is definitely the culprit. When I repainted my roof I removed the duct tape, but didn't scrape off all the old before putting on new. Had the seal compromised, it was leaking again for the first time since all this began.

 

[Steve Addy]

Update: My sunroof is definitely the culprit. When I repainted my roof I removed the duct tape, but didn't scrape off all the old before putting on new. Had the seal compromised, it was leaking again for the first time since all this began.

Well that's good to know, but even if the seal around the glass is bad and water is coming in that way the roof mechanism is designed to drain everything away if all the parts are installed and functioning properly.

A closed sunroof with a stream of water over the top of it still should not be putting any water below the headliner.

Something else isn't right yet.

Steve

 

[thechoochlyman]

I'm quite certain the drains are either stopped up, disconnected, or both. I think I'm gonna wait until spring to re-fabric my headliner and fix the drains all at once.

 

[Steve Addy]

I'm quite certain the drains are either stopped up, disconnected, or both. I think I'm gonna wait until spring to re-fabric my headliner and fix the drains all at once.

I'd also consider pulling interior and carpets at that time, at the very least the rear. The pads that sit below the carpet can retain water for a long time and do a lot of damage.

Steve