Water Methanol injection on a TDI?

[mojogoes]

Quote.........dvldoc..
Water/alcohol make power through increasing ignition timing and adding O2 to the combustion process as well as pressure from the steam from the water.

Uuumm you can't have it both ways here........by adding 02 to the combustion chamber which we all agree has a cooling effect and mixed with methanol an even larger cooling effect this would not add pressure in the cylinder but in fact would lessen the pressure although the methanol would be adding (a form of fueling in addition to cooling) .Why do you think that this means you can add more boost pressure......because pressure is lost because of this cooling effect!! .......plus thermal efficiency

Remember that adding timing over that of the optimum injection window (injecting fuel long after tdc) will increase cylinder pressure because of the raised temperature the extra fuel and combustion are giving past this point and the same would apply to injecting to early btdc even more so in terms of added pressure to the cylinder which imo would happening with injecting methanol (premature ignition) and which propane as the same effect (talk about knock!!)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5718194.html

Quote...........
Issue Table of Contents | View myArticles Full Text: [ PDF (1357 KB) | HTML ]
Evaluation of Interstage Water Injection Effect on Compressor and Engine Performance
Journal of Engineering for Gas Turbines and Power -- October 2006 -- Volume 128, Issue 4, pp. 849-856

I. Roumeliotis, Research Assistant and K. Mathioudakis, Associate Professor

Laboratory of Thermal Turbomachines, National Technical University of Athens, Iroon Polytechniou 9, Athens 15773, Greece
(Received 1 October 2003; revised 1 March 2004)

The present paper examines the effect of water injection at the compressor inlet or between stages, on its operation. A wet compression model coupled with an engine performance model is used. The wet compression model produces the compressor performance map when water is present and consists of a one-dimensional stage stacking model, coupled with a droplet evaporation model. The effect of water injection on overall performance and individual stage operation is examined. The map-generation procedure is embedded in an engine performance model and a study of water injection effect on overall engine performance is undertaken. The possibility to evaluate the effect on various parameters such as power, thermal efficiency, surge margin, as well as the progression of droplets through the stages is demonstrated. The results indicate that water injection causes significant stage rematching, leading the compressor toward stall and that the performance enhancement is greater as the injection point moves towards compressor inlet.

©2006 American Society of Mechanical Engineers

doi:10.1115/1.2135823 Additional Information View ISI's Web of Science data for this article: [ Source Abstract | Related Articles ]

 

[dvldoc]

Quote.........dvldoc..
Water/alcohol make power through increasing ignition timing and adding O2 to the combustion process as well as pressure from the steam from the water.

Uuumm you can't have it both ways here........by adding 02 to the combustion chamber which we all agree has a cooling effect and mixed with methanol an even larger cooling effect this would not add pressure in the cylinder but in fact would lessen the pressure although the methanol would be adding (a form of fueling in addition to cooling) .Why do you think that this means you can add more boost pressure......because pressure is lost because of this cooling effect!! .......plus thermal efficiency

Remember that adding timing over that of the optimum injection window (injecting fuel long after tdc) will increase cylinder pressure because of the raised temperature the extra fuel and combustion are giving past this point and the same would apply to injecting to early btdc even more so in terms of added pressure to the cylinder which imo would happening with injecting methanol (premature ignition) and which propane as the same effect (talk about knock!!)

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5718194.html

Quote...........
Issue Table of Contents | View myArticles Full Text: [ PDF (1357 KB) | HTML ]
Evaluation of Interstage Water Injection Effect on Compressor and Engine Performance
Journal of Engineering for Gas Turbines and Power -- October 2006 -- Volume 128, Issue 4, pp. 849-856

I. Roumeliotis, Research Assistant and K. Mathioudakis, Associate Professor

Laboratory of Thermal Turbomachines, National Technical University of Athens, Iroon Polytechniou 9, Athens 15773, Greece
(Received 1 October 2003; revised 1 March 2004)

The present paper examines the effect of water injection at the compressor inlet or between stages, on its operation. A wet compression model coupled with an engine performance model is used. The wet compression model produces the compressor performance map when water is present and consists of a one-dimensional stage stacking model, coupled with a droplet evaporation model. The effect of water injection on overall performance and individual stage operation is examined. The map-generation procedure is embedded in an engine performance model and a study of water injection effect on overall engine performance is undertaken. The possibility to evaluate the effect on various parameters such as power, thermal efficiency, surge margin, as well as the progression of droplets through the stages is demonstrated. The results indicate that water injection causes significant stage rematching, leading the compressor toward stall and that the performance enhancement is greater as the injection point moves towards compressor inlet.

©2006 American Society of Mechanical Engineers

doi:10.1115/1.2135823 Additional Information View ISI's Web of Science data for this article: [ Source Abstract | Related Articles ]

Not to put you down but before you do copy and paste quotes you should really read them if you want to use them to prove your point. Keep it in the context it was stated in because it defeats your point.

The water adds steam and cooling and 02/ as well as the alcohol adds oxygen and cooling to the combustion process.

Water/alcohol make power through increasing ignition timing and adding O2 to the combustion process as well as pressure from the steam from the water.

A statement I stand by and based on fact.

Your also way off on the fact that adding adding steam to combustion does add power to the compression stroke and that's just a nice way to say your just plain wrong everyone knows adding water that flashes to steam adds pressure to a piston engine. Basic thermodynamics. Water expands when it turns to steam it's called thermal expansion. And for those not aware of this it is the tendency of matter to change in volume in response to a change in temperature.

Even wika has it right. And it's know for getting things wrong.

In a piston engine, the initial injection of water cools the fuel-air mixture somewhat, which increases its density and hence the amount of mixture that enters the cylinder. But the greater effect comes later during combustion when the water takes in significant amounts of heat energy as it converts from liquid to gas (steam). This increases piston pressure (torque), reduces peak temperature and resultant NOx formation, and reduces the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls.

Secondly that is a turbine engine which you could really only compare that to pre-turbo injection and still not a internal combustion engine, They work totally different, Pretty bad comparison really. I have gone over the effect of pre-turbo injection as far as the effect on the compressor inlet and how
effieceint turbo. I am very familar with the facts of that stuff, If your not aware Nasa did studies on water injection for turbine engines as well.

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/RT/2005/PB/PBA-snyder.html
But really a pain due to the large amounts of water that would need to be used.

Third there is also no mention of alcohol at all in what you posted. This would have been a much better example which is in comparison to what people here are using alcohol injection for. This is closer to what we are discussing here.

If your going to use patent info these would have been more inline with what we are discussing here.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5718194.html

the in-cylinder water injection during compression stroke significantly lowers compression temperatures through the latent heat of vaporization of the liquid water to the gaseous form. The lower temperature of compression permits increased compression ratios while avoiding pre-ignition. As well, the low-temperature water injected air/fuel or enriched O2 /air/fuel mass demands less work in the compression stroke thereby increasing overall engine efficiency. The low-temperature water injection promotes increased mass flow through the engine for increased power output and efficiency. The low-temperature water injection also lowers temperature of combustion thereby lowering the formation of nitrogen oxide emissions. The optional enriched oxygen air supply can promote ignitibility and combustion flame stability in the presence of the high diluent water concentration and/or low or so called ultra lean fuel/air ratios, The process can be used on a two or four cycle engine, ignited by spark or plasma or any injection process.

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5937799/description.html

Various fluids such as water and water in solution with other substances
such as alcohol have been commonly injected into hydrocarbon fueled
engines to provide improved engine operation. During the compression
stroke, the water droplets vaporize and absorb heat energy produced within
the combustion chamber to prevent pre-ignition. The vaporized water is
subsequently heated by the burning fuel mixture during the power stroke
and expands, increasing the mechanical efficiency of the combustion
process. Beneficial side effects may include prevention of carbon buildup
on the cylinder walls of the engine. As a result of the beneficial effects
of the water injection, the engine is able to run more smoothly and
efficiently on a leaner fuel mixture. Additionally, the reduction in peak
combustion temperature reduces the formation of oxides of nitrogen and
minimizes thermal stresses on the engine components.

Various types of devices have been developed to introduce fluids into the
intake air of the internal combustion engine. These devices have included
emulsion injection systems and intake air humidifiers in which air is
passed through a volume of water before being introduced into the engine.
Direct injection of the fluid into the intake air has been limited by the
inability of mechanical systems to precisely meter a relatively small
volume of water to obtain an optimum volumetric ratio of water in the
final fuel/air charge. Humidified or direct water injected systems are
impractical as the majority of the heat absorption capacity of the water
lies in the phase transformation from liquid to [COLOR=#F26522 ! important][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][COLOR=#F26522 ! important][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]gas[/FONT][/FONT][/color][/color].

Related art systems have not been entirely successful responses in engine
requirements, largely due to the inability of purely mechanical devices to
respond over a wide range in conditions. A method of supplying two
different fluids to a common combustion chamber is described in U.S. Pat.
No. 4,031,864 to W. T. Crothers. Water is used to achieve phase separation
when methanol and gasoline are stored in a common tank, but are pumped
from different levels within that tank. The primary purpose of that
invention is to allow the use of different fuels.

A method of supplying water during peak power demand periods in an internal combustion engine is described in U.S. Pat. No. 4,351,289 to V. A. Renda. Water injection is carried out with water from a reservoir pressurized by an injection pump which is energized only above predetermined torque levels, under control of a vacuum switch sensing intake manifold vacuum.

A method of supplying water to an internal combustion engine for the
purpose of allowing operation with leaner fuel mixtures is described by
U.S. Pat. No. 4,461,245 to M. Vinokur. Intake manifold pressure is used to
control the output of a water pump, thereby making the water injection
rate responsive to engine load.

A method of providing water to the cylinders of turbocharged engines is
described by U.S. Pat. No. 4,558,665 assigned to L. Sandbery. This system
injects water into each manifold runner before each intake valve and is
operated independently of the fuel system.

A system for water injection into internal combustion engines used to power
generators is described by U.S. Pat. No. 4,960,080 to J. O'Neill, E.
Schisler, and P. Kubo. The system is activated when the output of the
generator reaches a predetermined level which is associated with the onset
of NOx emissions by the drive motor.

Fourth, O2 does not add to the cooling effect of the combustion chamber it adds in the burning of the fuel, which also increases the compression ratio as well, There is a reason you have to pull timing when adding N20 to a vehicle. If 02 alone could cool the chamber try this experiment get a medical 02 tank and plumb it in your intake and see if your EGT's drop even if you have it on full flow. I can assure you they will not.

Remember it's the change over from liquid to vapor which is causing the cooling that applies to the water and the alcohol, Just like the human body when you sweat and it evaporates it cools you pretty basic concept.

Let the Mythbusting continue

 

[LumberJack5500]

The Snow Performance (SP) kit seems to be way more expensive than DevilsOwn (DO), why?

It looks like the only thing you get extra with the SP kit is a reservoir and digital controller. Why go with SP over DO, or DO over SP?

 

[dvldoc]

The Snow Performance (SP) kit seems to be way more expensive than DevilsOwn (DO), why?

It looks like the only thing you get extra with the SP kit is a reservoir and digital controller. Why go with SP over DO, or DO over SP?

We also have a digital controller. The best thing I can say is to compare each kit part for part then ask yourself why am I paying more for less in one vs another. We're not here to bash anyone kit.

We don't lock anyone into a tank as well, Nothing worse than paying for a tank that may or may not fit your vehicle or is smaller than your stock washer fluid tank. Many people like to keep the stock look of there vehicle so we let you pick your own tank.

Our controller is also designed to be mounted on the inside of the vehicle with on the fly adjustments.

Plenty of kit makers out there just find one that fits your options needs and budget. Customer service should also be a big factor as well.

 

[LumberJack5500]

Well I cerntainly like the fact that you are involved with the forum and are here to answer questions not just to promote.

Consider me a future customer

 

[Satiro]

How many miles approx for one 4 gal. container? why with this system will have "more timing"?

 

[Mach1]

How come the Con-WI guys are WRONG and idiots. when we are just trying to present facts.

Does there have to be name calling here??

We are trying to present facts here, so people can make wise decisions, and make good decisions on if/which mods are right for them.

I will state again MY POSITION, WI for cooling I agree with, the excessive water has to go somewhere--oil? Washed cylinder walls?

Now when you are trying to add Meth or acetone or eth, for power adders, then this should be reveiwed a little bit more. The timing is increased, the burn time is increased, Not Even to mention the CP's are going to be off the chart, does head gaskets bring anything to mind???

Heres some general advice that I follow in my posts, tell both sides of the story..pros and cons...Dont hide anything or be a salesman approach. If its a good idea or product it will sell its self.

 

[ocshaman]

I just wanted to add what little I can to this discussion.

Yes, water can get into the crankcase. I have had it happen. Let me explain how. Feel free to laugh if you want to. My last car was a 660cc gasser. Yeah, a 20 oz bottle. NA, 40 hp. it burned oil so I would take it out before an oil change and suck some water through a hose. No pressure, no nozzle, just an aquarium valve to monitor flow and a 500 ml bottle. In 15 min of spirited driving, it sucked up about 400 ml of water. At that time I checked the oil, and there was foam on the oil cap, and about .5 inches of foam on the dipstick. 5 minutes of normal, up to temp driving cleaned up all but a little bit on the oil cap. So yes, it can get to your crankcase, but if you oil is up to temp, it will cook off. the same thing can happen to short trip cars. IF the oil doesn't get up to temp, stuff will "grow" on the oil cap.

 

[20vK]

dvldoc you have pm!

 

[mojogoes]

20vK .......you drag monster you.........lol.

 

[20vK]

"whistles...."

 

[mojogoes]

No no man "bell's bells"

 

[20vK]

ha ha! you crack me up!!

 

[devonutopia]

I went for SP merely because there is a UK agent that was advertising them, and I have a way of recourse should anything go wrong. Having said that my clutch, diff, gauges, etc all came from the States, so kind of blows that idea.

I will get plenty of pics of my setup on saturday.

 

[20vK]

Good stuff Jason!!!

 

[mojogoes]

I may use a kit i'll see what my tuner says/thinks at the time of another tuning session.

 

[20vK]

Even if you just use h20 to keep the head clean and smooth & EGT's down.......

 

[mojogoes]

Yeah though turning the system on b4 the engine is up to full operating temps seams like a no no plus it would be nice to see how much water blow by i had in the catch-can after a month or 2 of running.........or anywhere else for that matter.

 

[devonutopia]

Even if you just use h20 to keep the head clean and smooth & EGT's down.......

The way it's going with my hunt for methanol... I can see me using 100% water during the first trials of my system.

Unless I nip down Tesco for some "value vodka"

 

[20vK]

Agreed! Although we should be waiting for oil to get to running temp before hoofing it anyway, so no change to driving style for me on that front!

Agree on the catch-can aspect - will be interesting.

Snow's instructions for diesels tell you to add increasing amounts of h20 until you reach an incomplete burn scenario. You then wind the h20 back a bit so that burn is complete, but you get the cooling benefits of h20.

I reckon the majority of any super hot vapour that is left in the combustion chamber will make a swift exit out the exhaust ports. The thing to bear in mind is that the WI nozzle is more of a water fogger than a typical fuel injector spray pattern. Not sure of ppm compared to WI, but I've got no problem driving in heavy fog!!!

However, I'm not dealing with facts, just my thoughts!

Must be a cheap source of meth in the UK - will let you know if I find somewhere!

 

[Honeydew]

Unless I nip down Tesco for some "value vodka"

Or hook up with your local moonshiner

 

[ibanix]

You dudes can argue about it all you want, but it *actually works* on my car. Not sure what more you need?

Dyno will be had when I get some $$$ free. A UOA at my next OCI, in about 3k miles, will tell us about water in the oil/crankcase.

 

[mojogoes]

Try this Jason......i used to use it for my Heli moddels.........Oops US only i can get the same though from my local model shop just up the road from me.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=710577

 

[20vK]

Apparently these guys sell it http://www.hauserracing.com/ based in northants. not sure on price.

Or look up chemical companies - they should have barrels of the stuff!!

so far £2.60/ litre http://www.mistralni.co.uk/results.php?find=methanol&searching=yes

2.52/litre http://www.fluke-motorsport.co.uk/shopping_cart.php seems expensive for 205 litres...

 

[Mach1]

Snows instructions are to slow the burn and then back off...

So to tune it you put way too much in it and then start backing/tuning...

Soo much for the cant quench it...When you want to quench it to tune it..

Just the facts Maam..

Yes, the water should burn off, if the driving cycle allows, what happens if you are adding TOO much and cant burn it off enough??

Some people say go through the CAC(to cool it), others say keep it out of the CAC cause it will settle and puddle at the bottom.

Some say inject preturbo(cleans the blades and VGT mechanism), others say dont compress it..

Who knows what???Contridicting facts??

 

[ibanix]

I have an idea. How about follow the manufacuter's instructions?

WORKSFORME

 

[devonutopia]

I don't want water going through my turbo as I think the risk of corrosion is worse than the possible cleaning benefit.

PS: This thread is a great discussion, so people rate it 5*!! Sad to see someone rated it 1*....

Edit: THIS is more like the price I want to pay for methanol, but going to Manchester to get it is a pain!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Virgin-Methanol-bio-diesel-99-95-purity-205L_W0QQitemZ330253970200QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item330253970200

 

[ibanix]

Water's going through your turbo every day, Jason. Or do you never drive through that famous british fog? ;-)

 

[20vK]

I can see where Jason's coming from. I am still (maybe needlessly) worried about pitting of the turbine blades through WI. I know it's probably a silly fear, but it's there.

Untill I see pictures of strong milage on a turbo with pre WI, running under similar conditions to what I will be, I'm going to find it hard to overcome my fears and do it. There's just too much perception of risk in it for me at the moment.

 

[mojogoes]

Apparently these guys sell it http://www.hauserracing.com/ based in northants. not sure on price.

Or look up chemical companies - they should have barrels of the stuff!!

so far £2.60/ litre http://www.mistralni.co.uk/results.php?find=methanol&searching=yes

2.52/litre http://www.fluke-motorsport.co.uk/shopping_cart.php seems expensive for 205 litres...

£150 = 205L = £140/£150per ltr....http://www.reagent.co.uk/solvents/methanol/methanol-in-205l-drums-technical-grade.html