Warm up time

[Johnny]

Hello All, and Searons Greetings!
This is the first winter I've had the diesel engine and I must say that so far the cold temperatures (down to -18C) have not been a serious broblem. I keep the car outside with no heater and it turns over very slow on the coldest mornings but the cold start control evens things out after a few seconds of cranking.
I drive away slowly but I notice there is much more power when the engine is cold. I don't over do it though, but there is a hill I have to climb just a few blocks away and our Passat climbs up at 2000 rpm in fourth gear and it will bog down unless I gun it a bit when the engine is warmed up!
Now to my question, how long do your cars take to warm up? We're warm and toasty within five minutes with the engine temp registering 80C. The sales people we talked to said that the diesels take longer to warm up than gassers. I'm just curious, as this may not be normal and could be a symptom of the low mileage we've been getting, 6.2/100km. This is the Turbo Deisel not the TDI, and we are putting on lots of city km's about 50/50.

 

[dzcad90]

Usually I go out and let my car warm up for about 15 minutes before I take off. By the time I get out to the car the temp gauge hasn't moved, but the cabin is warm.





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1997 Jetta TDI
Upsolute Chip
K&N Filter
Descreened
Broken Timing Belt @ 72,800 (15,100 miles on belt)
New Cylinder Head

caddy@udnet.net

 

[shirish_bh]

dzcad90,
Its not a real good idea to let a diesel engine idle when cold, especially in freezing temps.
"Diesel knock" is very common during cold starts. A diesel engine runs smoother at a higher load (torque) even when cold.
VW also recommends against excessive idling when cold.
I usually start driving immediately (after about 20 secs). This helps the engine warm up faster.

 

[GoFaster]

Your car probably warms up faster than a TDI, because it has the old style prechambers. The same heat losses that make the older diesels slightly less efficient also make for an engine that warms up faster.

Mine takes practically forever to really warm up unless travelling at a decent highway speed, driving around town it takes quite a while. Heat comes out of the heater before the gauge registers thanks to the coolant glow plugs (don't think the older ones have those).

Slow cranking at -18 C? How's your battery, is it the original one? That would be hard to believe, maybe it's time for a replacement. Better do it before it fries the power supply in your instrument panel ... ask me how I know ...

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI mit UPsolute

 

[ertzog]

I drive right off.

In the cold weather the last couple weeks, I usually get to my commuter lot/home again (8 miles?)without the guage even starting to move.

 

[Turbo Steve]

The longest my ride has taken to start is 1 second. After it starts, I let it idle for about one minute and then slowly drive off, keeping the RPM's under 2,400 so the ECU will not shutt-off the (afterglow) glow plugs.

This is even with an Oil Pan Heater, but the above principles should apply either way.

 

[Turbo Steve]

P.S. With the Oil Pan Heater and temps at 15*F., it takes 3 minutes of driving for the temperature gauge to reach 190*F.

 

[msparks]

It's also important to stay out of the turbo as much as possible during at least the first minute or two.

Staying out of the turbo mean accelerating very slowly and shifting below about 2,000 rpms.

also this is a good time to mention synthetics. since they will flow to all of the vital parts very quickly. usually within 3-5 seconds. 0w30, 5w30 and 5w40 are the best for those cold regions of the world, though they are also good for hot too for that matter!!

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Lube-Direct

New Lube Forums

 

[VeeDubTDI]

I usually start the TDI and prop a pole on the accelerator (for a 1200 rpm idle) for about 5 minutes... then I drive it.

I don't like driving it when it's stone cold, but that's just me and my craziness talking.

I've let my car idle for hours. If it's good enough for a tractor trailer with 1,000,000 miles, it's good enough for a dinky little diesel beetle with 10,000 miles. Besides, what's 1/20th of a gallon of diesel anyway? Most gassers would burn up 1/20th gallon of fuel in 15 minutes... not an hour!

-VeeDub

P.S. don't try and talk me out of my strange habits, it won't work. A little oil in the turbine housing never hurt anything anyway... keeps it from rusting.

P.P.S. Steve, what does your temperature gauge register when you start the car after the oil pan heaters have warmed up the oil overnight?

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Über-Käfer: UPsoluted 2000 Yellow New Beetle 1.9 TDI 5-speed
1987 Diamond Blue Mercedes-Benz 190D 2.5 Turbo (sold, but considering re-purchase)

 

[JeffT]

I wait till it smoothes out then take off, just a matter of a few seconds. I keep the revs down for a little while.

 

[BoraTdi]

I let mine warm up for maybe 15-30 seconds and drive off slowly. Since Upsolute raises my turbo pressure I am cautious about the revs for a mile or so. I usually accelerate very slowly at first or else the turbo makes a wheezing noise. After a mile maybe, I will rev up to about 2200 at most, and it has been taking me about 5 miles of driving at 2200 rpm (60-65 mph) for the temp to reach 190. I guess my real concern is the startup, and the point where the temp needle makes it to the first white mark. I exercise caution at these points.


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Will
99.5 Black Jetta GLS
SR, Beetle wheels, Momo Shadow Carbon
"Upsolute power corrupts Upsolutely!"

 

[feto]

<h2>forever...</h2>

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'94 Golf tdi 1Z
'56 Willys M38A1

 

[Turbo Steve]

In cold temps, I recommend a 1 - 2 minute warmup time before slowly driving off. This is mostly to ensure that oil has reached the turbo more than anything, so that it will be lubricated before you rev the engine up a little.

 

[DieselDeamon]

Well lets see here lol. 81 Vw truck 5-8 mins depending on temp
2600 ford farm tractor 10 mins @900 rpm's
1978 Paystar w/ 350 Cummins 15 mins so the jake can be safley used leaving garage.
ah id say i make it a practice to let every diesel i drive or work on Warm up for 5-20 mins depending on size, and temp
And i have Idle time warning stickers in my Rabbit truck and on farm tractor,My Diesel mechanic went i got certified and recertified always Preached little bit of Fuel burned at start up and shut down is Hell of alot cheaper than a new engine.lol

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82 vw dsl rabbit
81 vw dsl Rabbit truck

 

[Douglas C49J old]

VW does indeed recommend against extended idling. And, as we all know, the TDI takes a long time to warm up in cold weather - esp if there is little load ie a long downhill stretch after startup. Still, at least 75% of wear on a normally operated piston engine occurs during the first 30 seconds of a cold start, so idling an engine for about a minute and driving gently until the oil temp starts rising (about 10 miles) should be ideal. The worst possible thing to do to any engine is to "rev it up" immediatly after a cold start and/or to use heavy throttle settings right away.

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[DieselDeamon]

String bean Dont get me wrong, But all these warnings against idling for extended periods of time,Are as about as good as the paper it is written on,Number one their full of it up to their Ears, That old paystar i used to drive would warm up, to at least 160,Just at idle speed, Plus you had to let it warm up,Or you would break the Jake springs if the Driver uesed the jake on a cold engine,Takes along time to get 10 gallon of engine oil warm, I let my engines idle for periods of time,Warming up the engine is the most important thing to its life,MY 81 vw Truck i let warm up till the temp gauge starts climbing up, Try to drive it b4 it's warmed up it sound's like she's comming apart at the seam's. Cement truck's have to idle all day till they are done to keep the drum turning.Coal and Freight trains Sit idling For week's at a time, I personaly have seen Engines that idled for long times out last the Constant shut down and start up cycles on other engine's I am a firm beliver in Ideling before shut down so if i stop somewhere before i know 5 mins would be up, i leave it run,I Dont know how the Oil Pressure Runs on the newer TDI's But that old diesel rabbit of mine ya also better warm it up and get the oil warm before. Running it much above idle or your burrying the Press gauge on the other side of 75 psi, And also they dont care what the say in owners manuals they are out their to do what?? Sell cars Hell no their not going to say better wram it up for 5 mins before driving mine in 81 says drive off after starting , Yea sure i will. Diesel's Can also seize a Piston by not being warmed up and ran,

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82 vw dsl rabbit
81 vw dsl Rabbit truck

 

[cars wanted]

Huh? I had no problems driving off in my 1982 diesel Rabbit seconds after a cold start. I idled it only just long enough for the motor oil to reach the valve train and quiet it down a bit. I then drove off. I kept that car 17 1/2 years as a daily driver and I drove it 220,000 miles. (No suitable Rabbit replacements available during the mid-1990s, as far as I was concerned.)

 

[GeWilli]

It has to do with the Turbo charger.

Idling will not flow enough oil to protect the turbo in this small of an engine

And point number two these engines actually COOL Down when idling.

get your facts straight DD.

the engines you list have little in common with the TDI. I might suggest you check out the service manual and the reports on the TDI. Not the old IDI, not a monster V8 diesel but this little tiny 1.9L Turbo diesel thingy. I am not discounting your vlauable experience here on this one, just pointing out that it is counter productive to the engine.

In fact the best way to warm the vehicle up is to drive it very very gently keeping the RPMs below 2400 until the temperature gauge goes above the three lines, just like everyone has been saying.

But your advice is somewhere in the middle for Johnny. anyway, had to post this sorry, felt the need, esp with the comment "warnings being as good as the paper written on"

 

[DieselDeamon]

Ge will now your on the list of being pathetic, Since whene was a 350 Cummins a V-8 Last i seen the v-8 was gone years ago in a large truck, Might be stillsome rumbling around But Straight 6 is bout the only cylinder arangment ya see, Number 2 Nut head ill show you personaly any Diesel engine Including your Tdi which works The same God for saken way a Cummins, Cat, Detriot, Powerstroke, Any drive by wire newer diesel's out their Will Not no way cool down so low that incomplete combustion occurs, That only happens in a Cold engine That just has been started thats why i stated my IDI 1.5 In my truck rattels louder than after it is warmed up, Because of ignition Lag inside the not yet warmed up engine, I can let my Big Rig That i Now have been Driving for a freind sit all day in singel digit temps and once it is warmed up, that temp gauge ont fall below 185. My Rabbit truck can idel all day in same temps and if i have the heater off sooner or later the Radiator fan kicks on, If i have it running before the Thermostat kicks open and i runn off a hill in no fuel yes it will cool off but after the thermostat has opened it might drop two marks below operating temp's But never would drop off the scale like it is before a start up. And as for oil flow on these small engines at idel, If it cant pump enough oil to that turbo at least 15lbs Thene that engine is Junk to start with, That old Paystar i drove with a 1978 350 6 cylinder cummins carried 10 lbs oil pressure at idle, has well over 1 million miles on 2nd turbo, Fisrt one went Bad Because of some Idiot shutting it down hot, 2nd turbo has been their since 1987 and still Turbo's Just fine and it might sit idleing for 3 hrs at a time. And a diesel Relies on Compression to ignite the Fuel for all you Cold starters and not let it warm up your incomplete combustion is Killing your rings sooner than it would if it was allowed to Warm upfor at least 5 minutes. I have seen Many cylinder liners and rings and Walls to see cold start damage Number one rule whene starting a Cold Diesel Keep your foot off the throttle, If any fuellight amounts should be given, Since ge will yoiur so worried about That turbo, Cold oil is a Big killer on Bearings, Reving it up to 2400 is spinning that turbo a little fast for stiff Cold oil. Commen sence says let it warmup a diesel is like our bodys works better and lives longer being warm

 

[SoTxBill]

heres an opinion...

idling when cold produces maximum oil pressure and usually engages the bypass valve on the oil filter, and the overpressure valve on the oil pump..
It was not unusual to see 90 lbs of oil pressure on the older vw engines.
I ruined a couple of "0 to 60lbs" guages finding out..
So I dont agree..
as far as the engine cooling down.. yes if its at 190 degrees f the engine will cool down.. to maybe 120 or 100.... but definately warmer than the minus 18 that the engine started out at....
so idling will warm the engine up.. remember the temp guage doesnt move till the engine is above 100 to 120.

As far as long idling...
when cold,, I dont think there's a problem...

when the engine is very hot and oil is very thin and pressure drops to minimum...there could be oil straving problems and oil moving too slow to adequatly lubricate the turbo bearings or
too slow to prevent coking and oil breakdown under high heat condition on the turbo bearing...
this condition occurs after long loaded driving and resulting in diesel engine manufactors recomending keeping the engine "above an idle" during the "cool down" period..hence no long idling while hot...
It is hard to get a tdi that hot unless hill climbing, pulling a trailer or idling with the ac on in 120 degree weather.

however I dont believe in idling as it wastes fuel...

 

[otto888man]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoFaster:
Your car probably warms up faster than a TDI, because it has the old style prechambers. The same heat losses that make the older diesels slightly less efficient also make for an engine that warms up faster.

Mine takes practically forever to really warm up unless travelling at a decent highway speed, driving around town it takes quite a while. Heat comes out of the heater before the gauge registers thanks to the coolant glow plugs (don't think the older ones have those).

Slow cranking at -18 C? How's your battery, is it the original one? That would be hard to believe, maybe it's time for a replacement. Better do it before it fries the power supply in your instrument panel ... ask me how I know ...

Brian P.
'96 Passat TDI mit UPsolute<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How did you fry your instrument panel? I'm curious how & why it happens? Thanks in advance.

OM

 

[DieselDeamon]

Bill Maybe ya might have misunderstood me, I also have the same problem with the older engine of having high oilpressure, Thats another reason why its good to leat it warm up and get the oil thinned out, Oil Pressure @90 @ 700 rpms is high now drive off and it way above 100 i had a gauge go bezerk on a Turbo 1.6 once while i was working on it trying to tell the fool that the reason he was eating so many turbo seals was in fact due to that high Psi on the oil, to this day he still has that same car, After he started warming it up he has never once lost another turbo seal yet.

 

[GeWilli]

No, you are correct - the engine will stay above ambient temperature. BUT the fuel temp will go down reducing the efficincy of the engine, adn increasing the soot from combustion, not a big deal no.

The oil thing, yes it is very important to get the oil temperature up to a certain point before driving away esp for the Turbo.

BUT that said, if you follow the reccomendations from VW on teh TDI you will have a synthetic oil in there that will give you near instant protection upon startup, making the idling time wastefull, and not productive to reaching ideal operating conditions.

I have chose to use a synthetic 0W-30 oil. Oil analysis has show it to have extremely low wear rates even through the summer. And yes it meets the Mack, and Cummins latest test, so it acceptable for year round use in even those vehicles (oh it is Ch-4 too).

Sorry, DD I got out of hand yesterday. I gotta remember that if I start feeling that way I need to not post at all.

If you are not using a synthetic oil and are using a 15W-40 it is very important to let the thing warm up at idle before driving off.

A friend of mine has a Powerstroke F-350 that he uses to tow gensets and storage batteries up and down the mountains of Colorado, he has to let it warm up longer, much much longer than the TDI before he can drive away, and he is even using the Amsoil Series 3000 (has been for what 5 years now or so) 5W-30.

Different vehicles are different.

Will you kill your TDI by letting it sit and idle? Nah probably not, do I turn it off if my passenger is going to be 5-10 minutes getting something? Nah.

It is just that warming it up doesn't work when it is idling for me, the car never gets warm enough fast enough, I am better off just letting is idle for 1-2 minutes and then slowly driving off, yes keeping very light pressue on the accelerator.

 

[Turbo Steve]

Keep in mind that, when starting a warm or luke-warm engine, it's wise to let it idle for 5 - 10 seconds, to ensure the turbo is getting plenty of oil before revving the engine up and taking off. I believe in this because my turbo begins to kick in at 1,300 RPM's.

-A little advice that's in the Owner's & RB Manuals.

 

[DieselDeamon]

Not a problem Ge will, have a good day

 

[SoTxBill]

DD, I was refering to ge willi's post about not warming up... sorry... bill

 

[DieselDeamon]

No Problem Bill thanks

 

[Smokescreen]

(sniff...sniff)

I love a happy ending!

 

[GloPlug]

Hello all....I'm a diesel trained flightline mechanic in the military.....and all i have to say is that the manufacturer usually knows best, and all of the VW literature AS WELL AS service reps/technicians have all said the same thang....no warm-up idle AND drive carefully when the engine is cold.....trust the manufacturer....they're the ones who have to warranty the drivetrain if it breaks...

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"Always remember, some days you're the pidgeon, others you're the statue..."
Randy (aka:GloPlug)