VWOA commitment (lack of) to NA buyers

[Rico567]

Exactly. The sheeple have spoken!

This is the real point to all comparisons of the NMS Passat to "mainstream" cars. It's not that, no matter how many times it's put into a lineup like C&D does. It's a niche market car, like the SAABs we drove for over 40 years, before SAAB becoming a legacy car drove us elsewhere. If they were still making them, we'd be right back in that niche, too! We're still driving an '04 9-5 wagon with 170K on it as a second car, and will do so as long as we can.

 

[DubFamily]

This is the real point to all comparisons of the NMS Passat to "mainstream" cars. It's not that, no matter how many times it's put into a lineup like C&D does. It's a niche market car,

No it isn't. It is perceived to be a niche market car. VW has redesigned and built the NMS Passat specifically to compete with the mainstream models in the US...

The fact that it can't is the whole point of the discussion.

 

[South Coast Guy]

The average price paid for a new car in the US is just over $30K. How much extra do you expect in a car that sells for less than that?

 

[IFRCFI]

That's pretty much the list of things that manufacturers spend less on to make a car cheaper. They almost go backwards with things.

Ford, Hyundai, Kia, etc. disagree...


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[oilhammer]

Who says it can't compete?

I am in and out of all kinds of cars, all the time. I can tell you that the VAST majority of Camry, Accord, Altima, etc. (high volume sellers) are NOT the tarted up versions. They are MUCH more likely to be a lower to mid level car. Most Camry models through our shop are 4 cyl, automatic, steel wheels, with that fugly greige interior, drum rear brakes, standard Buick suspension, and no fancy stuff. Very few Fusions have an Ecoboost engine. Very few Optimas have the TGDI engine. Seriously, the rental 2.5L Passat I had is a nicer car.

Volkswagen, despite being beat on so much as the underdog, competes quite nicely globally with the rest of the heavyweights. They are, and have been, consistently, a top contender in many markets. While other makes have discarded brands and changed hands faster than Katy Perry changes custumes during concert, VAG has actually grown, and taken over other marques.

So to bounce up and down and say they are so clueless, and awful, and don't know what they are doing, simply isn't true. Now, they certainly have room to improve in North America, however this market is a tough nut to crack. We have short memories, big bellies, household debt loads that rival small nations, and are easily distracted from the long haul. I like Volkswagen products specifically because they are NOT like all the rest, and I honestly wouldn't like my cars so much I think if they were as common on the roads here as they are in Europe. I don't wish their US sales to explode. When that happens, when a manufacturer allows that to happen, the quality and longevity suffers. It just does. Go drive a Taurus circa 2004 if you don't believe me. I'd just as soon French kiss a train station urinal than drive around in one of those every day. Yet Ford sold the bejesus out of those turds on wheels.

Volume (numbers) does NOT equal quality. MB sold very few cars here total way back when, yet at the time they really were building some of the best cars money could buy. I'm talking around 1980, when the W123 was in mid-life, think of all the other GARBAGE cars that were being built and sold then.

However, I do think they need more product here, but really they just need here what they already have elsewhere. If the regulations are too screwed up to accommodate that, then there should be some pursuit of change or standardization as I mentioned earlier. This would probably be better for everyone, to be honest.

And they are improving, and going in the right direction. Models like the Transit, Transit Connect, etc. finally being available here (albeit with truncated equipment) is good.

 

[kulak]

I'm a taller guy and I couldnt find anything with the room of the passat except a A8L, S-class, or 7 series LWB. There are very few cars that the back seat doesn't become useless with me in front let alone that I can sit behind myself.

I'm cheap and won't spend that kind of money for A8 level. I really don't care for lots of iFeatures that will quickly be outdated or break. Simple cockpit with room and decent driving characteristics is plenty for me.

Everyone is welcome to go buy their ThirstySoot Fusion with a dash that juts into your knees and around your body unnecessarily. Frankly I don't get why OEMs have to create the most complicated contrived dash designs possible. Keep it simple stupid.

I tend to travel a lot and always look for VWs first even if it's the 2.5cyl.

 

[Votblindub]

Ford, Hyundai, Kia, etc. disagree...


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I have to give it to Ford for making their cars look nicer in the recent years.

Kia and Hyundai are still throw away cars though.

I know, people will bring up a genesis or something, but why would you spend around 60k on a hyundai? That's Audi/Lexus/Infinity/BMW/MBZ money there.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Accord, Camry, and Passat all start at 22K or thereabouts. I've rented a base Passat, and although it's a bit barren, (like the Jetta S), it's not bad. Base Camry isn't any better, although the Accord is. The Accord is available with a stick, too. But the OP isn't looking at any of those cars, he's looking for one that's optioned out instead. Don't know how those compare.

And the Hyundai Genesis starts at $38K, not 60K. Not for me, but seems to be a pretty impressive value.

Carmakers don't really build what I want anymore. I prefer my W124 300D to a new E250 diesel. And my '02 Wagon to my '12 Golf (or a '15). With all the rust cleaned up and a new engine I figure I can drive the wagon another 200K, unless it gets taken out by some distracted person in an SUV. So I'm set for now.

 

[IFRCFI]

Kia and Hyundai are still throw away cars though.

They are every bit as solid as a Camry and Accord. There's nothing throwaway about the latest generation. The Koreans learned well...even scoring VW's design chief.


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[thebigarniedog]

I really wanted to buy a Passat, and may be I will. But, after test driving and giving some thought, I am not sure if I want to buy 2015 Passat.

There are just too many small things that NMS is lacking and I am hoping they will address those in 2016. If they do, I will buy 2016.

Things that they should have included in 2014-15 Passat, without increasing the cost of SEL, and much difficulty:

1. LED taillights and DRL
2. Parkatronic or whatever beeping assistance they call it now
3. Blind spot assist
4. Option of full leather seats instead of partial Dynamica (read recycled suede like fabric)
5. Better quality carpet
6. Faster alternative than RNS510
7. Improved interior plastic, especially the ones prone to scratches like instrument cluster and that tacky analog clock.
8. Anti-theft alarm
9. More options at cost to provide flexibility to buyers

I may still buy 2015, but I am really trying not to. It is not a comforting thought that there is a product, which will sell well due to increasing fuel costs (recent low gas prices are temp situation meant to put a dent on Putin's ego), and increasing awareness of diesel efficiency.

None of the Japanese competition has diesel and the only car that comes in even close in this range is Chevy Cruz (

)

There was a recent article about VW having slow Passat sales, due to slow design refresh. I think there is a lot of arrogance towards NA buyers by VW, and their mentality to sell every car they make, just because of Fuel efficient diesel models is bound to be a mistake.

Anyway, you guys can tell...this was rant. Though, not entirely wrong, I hope.

I guess everyone's taste is different. In the 1970s power windows, power brakes and air conditioning were upgrades. Quite modest by today's standards, ie most of the latest crapware such as park assist/lane assist/rearview camera etc etc which seems to have become more of a distraction to driving then even a cell phone. This electronic morass undoubtedly will be easy to service down the road when it inevitably craps the bed.

Yes I have driven cars with this crapware installed. It just seems so much easier to simply turn one's head and learn how to park, steer and drive a car to begin with then to rely on this crap. As a side note, I am so waiting for "it is not my fault the lane assist did not indicate that car I rammed was there" defense when some of the current offerings don't prevent the inevitable failures of today's lazy drivers.

I guess I would be more interested in an entry level diesel with a manual transmission and add seemingly mild upgrades (by today's standards) such as heated seats, homelink and maybe even projector lights then any of the other stuff in your laundry list of wants. Too each their own I guess ........

 

[Softrockrenegade]

No it isn't. It is perceived to be a niche market car. VW has redesigned and built the NMS Passat specifically to compete with the mainstream models in the US...

The fact that it can't is the whole point of the discussion.

So you are saying A manual transmission diesel sedan isn't niche.... I don't personally know anyone else that ownes something similar...

 

[Dirtracr95]

The only niche part is the manual trans.

 

[Tinkertoy]

I own two passat TDIs. Both of them are se.

In my opinion, vw pushed their range of options down market. They went after the entry level of the market and now max out at the high end of the mid level.

What they need to do is actually expand the range of options they offer. Why not offer a passat "euro"? Keep the existing models and add a high end model with all the bells and whistles. Oh, they could also offer the TDI SEL with a manual. It wouldn't cost them a penny to do that!

Also, the lack of the ability to add singular options to their package levels limits them. How many 6speed manual TDIs with a sunroof and the fender audio system do you think they could sell? Allowing customers to choose what they want in their cars instead of telling them would go along way as well. Again, would it cost them anything?

Imagine:
You go into buy a TDI SEL, and could add the HID headlights, electronic brake, delete The sunroof, add a manualtranny, and add adaptive cruise control? Sure it would cost more, but you go in knowing that, so it is a moot point. It would be another tool to keep potential buyers from going somewhere else instead.

 

[Dirtracr95]

I own two passat TDIs. Both of them are se.

In my opinion, vw pushed their range of options down market. They went after the entry level of the market and now max out at the high end of the mid level.

What they need to do is actually expand the range of options they offer. Why not offer a passat "euro"? Keep the existing models and add a high end model with all the bells and whistles. Oh, they could also offer the TDI SEL with a manual. It wouldn't cost them a penny to do that!

Also, the lack of the ability to add singular options to their package levels limits them. How many 6speed manual TDIs with a sunroof and the fender audio system do you think they could sell? Allowing customers to choose what they want in their cars instead of telling them would go along way as well. Again, would it cost them anything?

Imagine:
You go into buy a TDI SEL, and could add the HID headlights, electronic brake, delete The sunroof, add a manualtranny, and add adaptive cruise control? Sure it would cost more, but you go in knowing that, so it is a moot point. It would be another tool to keep potential buyers from going somewhere else instead.

you would be pretty much asking people to build their own car. Dealers wont want to sit on unique optioned cars that one guy might want. Most people impulse buy new cars and dont want to wait for their ideal build to arrive months later.

 

[IndigoBlueWagon]

Also, the lack of the ability to add singular options to their package levels limits them. How many 6speed manual TDIs with a sunroof and the fender audio system do you think they could sell? Allowing customers to choose what they want in their cars instead of telling them would go along way as well. Again, would it cost them anything?

Yes, it would. Honda was the first major manufacturer that learned it was far more economical to manufacture cars with the same equipment than with stand-alone options. That's why so many manufacturers offer packages instead of individual options.

And it seems that all manufacturers, except BMW and Porsche, have relegated manual transmissions to their entry-level vehicles. VW is unusual in offering the full line of Jettas with manuals. Honda, Mazda, and Koreans only offer manuals on their lower trim levels.

 

[FormerOwner]

(Note- old school bias here) It seems that cars are marketed these days with "infotainment" systems as THE reason to buy cars. People are glued to their electronic devices and consequently, if a car can bridge the gap between driving and keeping the driver abreast of the latest in "info-tainment", then it's a win-win. l like my iPhone and my digital music but find that it best plays on my radio in my Passat with the aux cord. I find that bluetooth only plays part of the music (I seem to only hear one guitar in a 2 guitar group). I don't complain much at all these days. I simply take care of my car, drive it, and let the car do its job. I could care less if it has all the gadgets and electronic gizmos that the youth of today treasure and covet.

This has been the best VW I've owned, next to my '82 Audi 4000s 1.6L diesel. I sure hope it continues to be a great car. I'm nearing 75,000 on it and it's been rock solid.

 

[FormerOwner]

You know... if I were the only person riding in my car, I'd go back to a GOLF TDI in a heartbeat. That thing is a rocket ship. Quick, nimble, and fun to drive in a 6 speed manual. But, my kids are tall like me and need the leg room. Soooooo I made a good call when I went with the Passat. When I'm an empty nester... I may go back to a Golf... or heck, a Cummins Dodge!~ No matter how you slice it... diesels may cost more or less depending on the price of fuel and what functions you desire, but hey, they are durable!

 

[czeetah]

The only niche part is the manual trans.

I thought that was an anti-theft device when I got mine, lol.

 

[DubFamily]

So you are saying A manual transmission diesel sedan isn't niche.... I don't personally know anyone else that ownes something similar...

Well, We are talking about PASSAT sales, and not manual, diesel Passat sales. Not to mention the manual transmission diesel version accounts for about 5% of total Passat sales in the US, so...

The Passat is not a niche car; VW specifically designed/marketed it to compete with the "big boys" of the market segment. That's the whole point...

 

[Softrockrenegade]

Well, We are talking about PASSAT sales, and not manual, diesel Passat sales. Not to mention the manual transmission diesel version accounts for about 5% of total Passat sales in the US, so...
The Passat is not a niche car; VW specifically designed/marketed it to compete with the "big boys" of the market segment. That's the whole point...

Yes, the NMS as a concept is a mainstream idea but forget the manual trans for a second. What percentage of the passat are just diesel? Probably less than the JSW, right? I would say a diesel wagen is also a niche vehicle but the JSW still has a higher percentage of diesel configurations sold.... And this is TDICLUB after all

 

[Dirtracr95]

Yes, the NMS as a concept is a mainstream idea but forget the manual trans for a second. What percentage of the passat are just diesel? Probably less than the JSW, right? I would say a diesel wagen is also a niche vehicle but the JSW still has a higher percentage of diesel configurations sold.... And this is TDICLUB after all

The jsw has way more diesel sales because the options are the crappy mpg 2.5L and the 40+mpg hwy diesel. Its really not a hard sell based on that stat alone. Other gas engines with mid 30s hwy mpg ratings are a harder to convince to go diesel. The jsw is brilliant on vw's part to get more people to become diesel fans.

 

[Votblindub]

They are every bit as solid as a Camry and Accord. There's nothing throwaway about the latest generation. The Koreans learned well...even scoring VW's design chief.


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They definitely are getting a lot better at it. The newest stuff might actually be capable of running around for a long time. We'll see 15 years down the road, if there's as many as camrys and accords. They definitely stepped up their game with the amount of features and options available in new cars. The majority of the population is still not seeing them as camry/accord status, i.e. that car people will "pass down to their kids and maybe their kids". But they now have much nicer interiors, they offer HID lights, better performing motors with good mpg figures, they have turbos now, they are getting into the hot hatch segment. It's hard to say right now though, let's have a look at their interiors and paint in a decade, see how they hold up.

 

[ABS]

And here I was hoping to find a SE, 6spd with manual windows... All the extra's are just that and provide no tangible benefit to me, personally, in my daily commute. What do LED Taillights get me? I see many Passats on the road, commute a very long distance daily, and they stand out as good as many "premium" brands when coming up from behind at night. Set your mirrors according to the Society of Automotive Engineers and the blind spot indicator is irrelevant. See here:http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-to-adjust-your-mirrors-to-avoid-blind-spots . I could go on...

I compared this car to the Accord, Fusion & Mazda 6 (in hopes they would actually deliver on the Diesel version for NA). I found many faults with each of those, the Accords cockpit was cramped as was the Fusion. Rear seat room was almost as bad as my BMW E46. The Fusions dash was a cluster of thoughtless complexity billed as advanced infotainment.. I liked the Mazda6 with the MT, it was a close second, had it been available with an oil burner I would have given it serious thought. At the end of the day, I believe in the old adage that simplicity is "advanced". Is the Passat perfect? NO. Was it the best option for me? Well under $30K for my 86 mile one-way commute with the space to accommodate my family of 5 for a long roadtrip, absolutely! Consider it for what it is, a thoughtful modern car.

 

[Votblindub]

Consider it for what it is, a thoughtful modern car.

This is why I got into VW/Audi cars, other than just liking them for a very long time. They have the same things as on the other cars, but just done better. My parents were HUGE Toyota fans. Don't get me wrong, Toyota produces great cars and I have nothing but tremendous respect for the company. Since getting a bunch of driving time in VWs(I'm lumping my A6 in the group, two jettas and a W8 passat), they're now noticing things and saying that this is how things should have been done(as compared to other cars we have/had in the family). Anything from the way the cruise control is set up to the shape of the trunk opening. Dubs are just practical, plus nobody is complaining about the MPG figures, either.

 

[tdiatlast]

Votblindub: "...They [VW] have the same things as on the other cars, but just done better..."

After this series of very thoughtful posts, perhaps it's better to say, "...just done differently...".

 

[Cincy_TDI]

They would sell more cars based on two factors as I see it.
Reliability or the perceived lack of it.
Repair cost which nowadays if something goes wrong in any car you better get ready to pay.
I have 40k on my 2013 Passat. So far no mechanical issues, just the occasional Bluetooth malfunctions locking up the radio system and regular maintenance.

 

[Votblindub]

Votblindub: "...They [VW] have the same things as on the other cars, but just done better..."

After this series of very thoughtful posts, perhaps it's better to say, "...just done differently...".

I think it's better. You can definitely have something done different, but that might not be better. VW has done a bunch of things in a better day.

 

[tdiatlast]

You missed my point. After reading thru this thread, I've come to the conclusion that "better" just can't be qualified. It all depends on one's perspective.

Yes, you can say, "better MPG", that's clearly defined. Almost everything else is subjective, IMHO.

 

[Votblindub]

You missed my point. After reading thru this thread, I've come to the conclusion that "better" just can't be qualified. It all depends on one's perspective.

Yes, you can say, "better MPG", that's clearly defined. Almost everything else is subjective, IMHO.

Oh, okay. I get what you're saying. Maybe "more practical" would work vs "better". I think it's more of an umbrella term to say "better", but "more practical" is more narrow and to the point. For example, the shape of the trunk on my jetta(sedan) is better than the lexus(sedan), because it's a different shape making it much more practical for putting things in it. The seats fold down in the jetta, but they do not in the lexus.

 

[czeetah]

It's hard to say right now though, let's have a look at their interiors and paint in a decade, see how they hold up.

That time's come and gone.

I've had many friends who have bought Hyundai/Kia years ago and they're holding up or have held up great.

If someone said that 10-15 years ago I would agree. But we're well past the point of seeing them hold up for many years.