VWoA and the use of B20!!!

aztecboi

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This specifically relates to Volkswagen owners. VWoA only approves the use of B5 biodiesel in any of their clean diesel engines without voiding warranties. Do any VW owners out there use B20 and not have any engine issues? Propel Fuels backs their fuel 100% and say that the use of B20 in a VW clean diesel engine will not harm it in any way, shape, or form and if there is an engine failure as a result of using their fuels, they will pay for the cost of the repairs. Currently, VWoA is testing B20 blends of biodiesel in their clean diesel engines to approve it for use. I don't know what is taking them so long. Other auto manufacturers out there promote the use of B20 already. Has anyone had their VW warranty voided as a result of using the B20 blend?
 

tditom

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If VW says the limit is 5%, then I doubt Propel will actually pay for any damage 'caused' by the use of B20. I'd hate to be the first one to try...
 

loganbmx4gt

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Propel Fuels backs their fuel 100% and say that the use of B20 in a VW clean diesel engine will not harm it in any way, shape, or form and if there is an engine failure as a result of using their fuels, they will pay for the cost of the repairs.
:eek: I would get this in black & white.

There are several on here that have been running B20 with no issues at all, and some have even went't a little higher with no issues. Do a search and you will find the ones that have talked about it.
 

Jim W

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Other auto manufacturers out there promote the use of B20 already. Has anyone had their VW warranty voided as a result of using the B20 blend?
Who? I know Cummins engine manufacture only allows the use of B5 diesel fuel in their 6.7L diesel engines. If you are a fleet user then you can order your trucks so they can burn B20. Different ECM programming to allow for you to burn B20 fuel, do to burning fuel in the exhaust to clean the DPF during the Regen process.
I try to stay away from any Bio-fuel and run straight diesel. I will no longer buy any diesel fuel in MN because of their mandate.
Jim W.
 

aztecboi

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In response to Jim W, Daimler Chrysler and Ford are big promoters of using B20 biodiesel. I have a 2010 VW JETTA TDI and I bought it brand new. It will be one year old next week. Since the day I drove it off the lot, I have used nothing but B5 biodiesel made by Propel Fuels. So far, the car runs like a Champ. B5 is the only biodiesel blend that VWoA approves. So I guess I will stick to that.
 

aztecboi

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In response to loganbmx4gt, this is from the www.propelfuels.com website:

Can biodiesel void my manufacturer warranty?


No, vehicle and engine manufacturer warranties apply to the specific products they manufacture. Fuel or fuel additives are not covered under a vehicle warranty. Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, if an engine experiences a malfunction due to parts and workmanship while under warranty, and it is not related to the fuel, it must be covered under the OEM’s warranty. Conversely, if it is determined that an engine malfunction is caused by the fuel used, it would become the responsibility of the fuel supplier to correct the problem. Under our Performance Guarantee, if Propel fuels are proven to be the cause of failure to any warranted fuel system, Propel will fix or replace the damaged material at no cost.
 

Scott_DeWitt

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In response to loganbmx4gt, this is from the www.propelfuels.com website:

Can biodiesel void my manufacturer warranty?


No, vehicle and engine manufacturer warranties apply to the specific products they manufacture. Fuel or fuel additives are not covered under a vehicle warranty. Under the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, if an engine experiences a malfunction due to parts and workmanship while under warranty, and it is not related to the fuel, it must be covered under the OEM’s warranty. Conversely, if it is determined that an engine malfunction is caused by the fuel used, it would become the responsibility of the fuel supplier to correct the problem. Under our Performance Guarantee, if Propel fuels are proven to be the cause of failure to any warranted fuel system, Propel will fix or replace the damaged material at no cost.
In the meantime the owner is out a vehicle while VW and Propel argue about who is at fault. I doubt Propel's check books are not easily opened.
 
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Jim W

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Oswego Il
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2011 Jetta TDI
In response to Jim W, Daimler Chrysler and Ford are big promoters of using B20 biodiesel. I have a 2010 VW JETTA TDI and I bought it brand new. It will be one year old next week. Since the day I drove it off the lot, I have used nothing but B5 biodiesel made by Propel Fuels. So far, the car runs like a Champ. B5 is the only biodiesel blend that VWoA approves. So I guess I will stick to that.
Daimler Chrysler ???? Who are they?
By the way the only diesel engine that the Chrysler Group LLC; offers in the US, is the Cummins diesel engine. Which clearly states B5 BIO Diesel only. I know, I own one which is a 6.7L Cummins which has the DPF.
Jim W.
 

01greenjetta

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Who? I know Cummins engine manufacture only allows the use of B5 diesel fuel in their 6.7L diesel engines. If you are a fleet user then you can order your trucks so they can burn B20. Different ECM programming to allow for you to burn B20 fuel, do to burning fuel in the exhaust to clean the DPF during the Regen process.
I try to stay away from any Bio-fuel and run straight diesel. I will no longer buy any diesel fuel in MN because of their mandate.
Jim W.
Didn't your mama tell you not to breathe stuff that stinks? Have you ever smelled the difference between B20 and pure petro-diesel? There's more energy potential and a higher cetane rating in B20 that ULSD, do like your car/truck to go slower, and your engine to wear faster due to lack of lubricity? Check out Blue Sun Biodiesel It'll get you where you're going fast, and offend the lungs of people behind you a lot less than ULSD!
 

d-man

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Newer TDI engines, with higher injection pressures, are less forgiving about poor-quality fuel than their 1980s ancestors. Volkswagen Group's warranty does not cover damage due to bad fuel (diesel or bio), and has in the past recommended that only mixtures up to 5% biodiesel (B5) be used. Volkswagen Group has recently permitted mixes up to B20, and has recommended B5 be used in place of 100% petroleum-based diesel because of biodiesel's improved lubricating properties.
Relax people B20 is acceptable.
 

RebelTDI

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You may want to touch base with TDIsky. He has run B20 for a while and I understand his UOAs were fine. He did, however, recently have an HPFP failure. Don't know if the cause is known.
 

Jim W

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Didn't your mama tell you not to breathe stuff that stinks? Have you ever smelled the difference between B20 and pure petro-diesel? There's more energy potential and a higher cetane rating in B20 that ULSD, do like your car/truck to go slower, and your engine to wear faster due to lack of lubricity? Check out Blue Sun Biodiesel It'll get you where you're going fast, and offend the lungs of people behind you a lot less than ULSD!
No, she taught not to disrespect my elders. I see you are from the land of the fruits and nuts, enough said.

"I love the smell of Diesel in the morning it smells like victory".

I have been in the diesel equipment business for over 40 years and I do know about the problems Bio-fuel and Bio-oil can cause with filters, hose material and seals. I have seen it firsthand.
Jim W.
 

UFO

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Daimler Chrysler ???? Who are they?
By the way the only diesel engine that the Chrysler Group LLC; offers in the US, is the Cummins diesel engine. Which clearly states B5 BIO Diesel only. I know, I own one which is a 6.7L Cummins which has the DPF.
Jim W.
VM Motori 2.8 liter CRD. Before Daimler pillaged Chrysler and hit the road, B20 was allowed. That was pre-DPF and post-combustion injection.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/daimlerchrysler_1.html
 

01greenjetta

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No, she taught not to disrespect my elders. I see you are from the land of the fruits and nuts, enough said.

"I love the smell of Diesel in the morning it smells like victory".

I have been in the diesel equipment business for over 40 years and I do know about the problems Bio-fuel and Bio-oil can cause with filters, hose material and seals. I have seen it firsthand.
Jim W.
Ok, you're right. I apologize to you, and this forum for being disrespectful. Yes, I'm from the "land of fruits and nuts", and I'm proud of it, at least the "nuts" part.
There are many types of seals and hoses that are compatible with bio, and older diesels are definitely more compatible with bio, than they are with ULSD.
I would rather breath B20 exhaust than ULSD exhaust any day. My car sounds better on it(less pinging), and I get 3-4 mpg better than ULSD. IF you're running red dye, then of coarse it is a stronger fuel than biodiesel, but it's not pleasant to breath.
I tend to get angry at people who defend our current energy system. Again, I apologize for being disrespectful.
 

tditom

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on 40 cetane D2, B20 raises cetane around 1.5 pts (roughly 3.5%). Not very significant.

I support biodiesel use when it is made to appropriate quality standards, but it is not the answer to all our fuel issues.
 

MonsterTDI09

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Newer TDI engines, with higher injection pressures, are less forgiving about poor-quality fuel than their 1980s ancestors. Volkswagen Group's warranty does not cover damage due to bad fuel (diesel or bio), and has in the past recommended that only mixtures up to 5% biodiesel (B5) be used. Volkswagen Group has recently permitted mixes up to B20, and has recommended B5 be used in place of 100% petroleum-based diesel because of biodiesel's improved lubricating properties.
Relax people B20 is acceptable.

Were is the bulletin on B20 that It's acceptable to use on CR engine?
 

TomB

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There's more energy potential and a higher cetane rating in B20 that ULSD, do like your car/truck to go slower, and your engine to wear faster due to lack of lubricity?
LOL! There is NOT more energy potential. Per volume there are LESS BTU's in BD. Replace 20% of a fuel (ULSD) with a BTU value of 86,000 with a fuel with 78,000 and you are LOSING energy.

I am a B100 supporter and user for 10+ years, but I have to clear up peoples misunderstandings whenever they make them.
 

tdisky

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on 40 cetane D2, B20 raises cetane around 1.5 pts (roughly 3.5%). Not very significant.

I support biodiesel use when it is made to appropriate quality standards, but it is not the answer to all our fuel issues.
No biodiesel supporter in their right mind would claim it's the answer to all our fuel issues. The answer used to be petroleum, but now we need a diversified energy portfolio, if you will. Biodiesel is just one piece of the puzzle.
 

TDiSkater

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Newer TDI engines, with higher injection pressures, are less forgiving about poor-quality fuel than their 1980s ancestors. Volkswagen Group's warranty does not cover damage due to bad fuel (diesel or bio), and has in the past recommended that only mixtures up to 5% biodiesel (B5) be used. Volkswagen Group has recently permitted mixes up to B20, and has recommended B5 be used in place of 100% petroleum-based diesel because of biodiesel's improved lubricating properties.
Relax people B20 is acceptable.
Interesting. Dealer provided me an unprompted warning- Don't use any bio at all. They have been instructed to void fuel system failure warranty claims where bio is used. SM asked me to get the word out to IL TDI club members. I was shocked at the request to spread the word to people beyond their specific dealer customer base, more than the bio statement. Wonder implications for IL where it's unbelievably hard to find D2, if this isn't BS.

He did say up to B5 is technically allowed, but not worth the warranty risk.
 
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TomB

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Interesting. Dealer provided me an unprompted warning- Don't use any bio at all. They have been instructed to void fuel system failure warranty claims where bio is used. SM asked me to get the word out to IL TDI club members. I was shocked at the request to spread the word to people beyond their specific dealer customer base, more than the bio statement. Wonder implications for IL where it's unbelievably hard to find D2, if this isn't BS.

He did say up to B5 is technically allowed, but not worth the warranty risk.
They cannot just void the warranty where they think BD was used! They have to sample the fuel and PROVE it was greater than B5, the level permitted by VW in the vehicles.

Sounds like you just have a pathetic service manager and dealer if they are treating you like this.

It is those "technicalities" that dictate the law, not his ideas.
 

TDiSkater

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I mentioned this next point in the Midwest forum.

SM did say they have been instructed to test for bio with a failure (he was referring to IL biodiesel which is at 11% on it's way soon to 20%). I would have completely dismissed his warning, until he said that I need to get the word out to IL owners via my active membership here on TDI club. Can't imagine he'd care about a customer in Chicago using a competitor. His demeanor was more trying to make sure I didn't get bit by this issue. He told me to use one of two stations they've confirmed in the area are D2.

Believe me I take everything I hear at a dealer with skepticism. The membership alert request threw me for sure.
 
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Westro

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IL is mandated 11% bio? What is VW doing for you for the new common rails?

Minnesota is mandated B5 and will be going to fully mandated B10 next spring. When I inquired about putting B10 in writing when I ordered by 2011 JSW they told me to get a lawyer. I contacted the MN attorney general and got no where. Thus I still have my ALH(s).
 

MonsterTDI09

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I mentioned this next point in the Midwest forum.

SM did say they have been instructed to test for bio with a failure (he was referring to IL biodiesel which is at 11% on it's way soon to 20%). I would have completely dismissed his warning, until he said that I need to get the word out to IL owners via my active membership here on TDI club. Can't imagine he'd care about a customer in Chicago using a competitor. His demeanor was more trying to make sure I didn't get bit by this issue. He told me to use one of two stations they've confirmed in the area are D2.

Believe me I take everything I hear at a dealer with skepticism. The membership alert request threw me for sure.

How can they sell a car in IL and Minnesota? When they fill up the car for you they void the fuel system warranty:confused:
 

TDiSkater

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We aren't mandated bio. It's a tax incentive. There are a few D2 stations, at least in the northern suburbs. The SM said that if I ran into trouble finding D2 to call him. He said they keep track in order to fill demos and fill new cars. He seemed concerned that I adhere to this.

This is a 180 change from when I took delivery and they told me to fill at any high volume station and not to worry about bio limit. Wish I had that in writing.
 

King Crimson

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This is interesting since the SM at my dealership continues to insist I shouldn't worry about BIO Diesel content from fuel in the Chicago area. I contacted VW directly and was told differently, indicating the need to stick with B5 or lower. These conversations took place after my DPF, catalytic and exhaust components on my 2010 Jetta had to be replaced at 17,000 miles for what was described as a "defective part (DPF)" for no apparent reason. The SM reassured me that it was not my fault and to continue to use whatever fuel I can find locally, and that the failure which would have cost $4500 if not under warranty, had nothing to do with fuel.

Based on the lack of information provided by the dealer with regard to the repair, I have lost much of my faith and trust in them. I'm actually contiplating getting rid of my TDI and going back to gas. In the meantime, I will be filling up with Premium Diesel available at Meyers where they have confirmed straight diesel (no BIO) with several additives.
 

Jim W

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I agree with the above poster on the use of Bio-Fuel also. That is why I refuse to fill up at any BP stations. I do use Wal-mart (Murphy Oil) and Meijer fuel stations in northern IL. These use only straight NO. 2 Diesel fuel.
I have a Cummins Ram 6.7L engine that has the same fuel requirement as my wife's TDI Jetta. I have instructed her to never go below a 1/4 tank and start looking for Meijer or Wal-mart that sells diesel and fill-up. This way she does not have to worry about Bio-Diesel.
Jim W.
 
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