VWoA and Federal Emmissions Warranty (8yr/80,000)

[NYTDIBoy]

So my passat is just under 3 years old, with just shy of 70k on the odo. A couple weeks ago I got a CEL, since I always have my tablet running torque to monitor regens, a few minutes after the light came on I see I have 2 codes, one for the NOx sensor, and the other for the heater circuit. The exact codes are:

18627 - NOx Sensor 1 Bank 1
P2200 00 [237] - Electrical Malfunction
MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 110208 km
Date: 2034.14.03
Time: 15:00:28
18640 - Sense Circuit for Heater for NOx Sensor 1 Bank 1
P2209 00 [237] - Implausible Signal
MIL ON - Confirmed - Tested Since Memory Clear
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00000001
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 5
Mileage: 109745 km
Date: 2034.14.00
Time: 07:21:49
​

When I got to work that day I called the dealer I bought it from, they said they would not comment on weather or not it would be covered under the emissions warranty until they had diagnosed it, which would cost me $120 (+tax). So I make the appt, a week or so later. They call me and say it's not covered since there are only 3 parts that are covered under the warranty, The catalytic convertor, the ECU, and the OBD system. When I get back to the dealer to pick up the car, I explain to them I need a written estimate of what is wrong and what is needed. He says fine, he comes back 5 minutes later and I look at the estimate, all he has written down is a part number and a dollar amount ($650 / 8k0-907-807-e).
One of my motorcycle riding buddies is the salesman who sold me the car, he runs into me as I am picking up the car and we go to his office to B.S. I ask him if there is anyway I can get a cost for the parts, he goes in to the parts department and they get me a listing of the part number. The description of the bad part number is "Control Unit with nox-sensor for emissions control". My buddy tells from chatting with guys behind the counter that the fact I have 2 codes showing bad indicates it's more than likely a controller issue rather than the actual sensor being the bad part. I was thinking perhaps when my turbo failed and dumped a ton of oil down the exhaust it had drastically shortened the life of the sensor. But as I said, the part is $518 before tax and the sensor is manufactured to be a part of the control unit. My buddy says to call VWoA, which I do the next day. The woman on the end of the line has no clue, and says the part is not covered because it's not a catalytic converter or the engine ECU. I tell her I need a written denial, which I get the next day. After reading it, she has denied my claim for "Knock sensor" as being it is not covered under the federal emissions warranty!
So after doing some research in my warranty manual and on the EPA's website, I find a discrepancy.I find this document on the EPA's website http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/regs/im/obd/pubs/420f15035.pdf that explains what is and isn't covered under the warranty. On page 4 we see this statement about what is covered.

There are three specified major emission control components, covered for the first 8 years or
80,000 miles of vehicle use (whichever first occurs) on 1995 and newer vehicles:
• Catalytic converters
• The electronic emissions control unit or computer (ECU)
• The onboard emissions diagnostic device or computer (OBD)

Notice it specifically calls the unit a "emissions control unit" much like the name of the part I need.
In the warranty Manual on page 11 they say the following:

....from a malfunction of a catalytic converter, particulate filter, engine electronic control module or on board diagnostic device (OBD)....

Armed with this knowledge I called VWoA back, they still stuck to their guns saying my faulty part is not covered because its not an ECM, OBD, or the cat. When I point out to them that their very own parts system refers to it as a Control unit for emissions, they still reply that it's not covered.
So what is consensus, do I take it up the you know what and pay $650 (plus the $129 already for the diagnostic) or do I have a case to take to the EPA and/or the New York State Attorney General? The problem is I have to get the car inspected in January and can't with those codes. I have read on here where some people have had it covered at the dealer no question asked and then other people were denied, but I don't know if it was covered under the bumper to bumper or the powertrain warranty.
Sorry for the long post, but it helps to get my frustration out!

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Don't pay. Put some pressure on them about Dieselgate, NOx emissions, and your NOx sensor problems and see what they have to say about that.

We have a check engine light for a bad AdBlue heater right now, and our intent is to wait until the car gets recalled for Dieselgate and let it fix them on their dime. They claim that the AdBlue heater is not covered under the emissions warranty even though it is an emissions system that can result in the car failing emissions if it is malfunctioning.

 

[cevans]

The ECU is not your problem, your problem is with a NOx sensor.

I wouldn't do ANYTHING until the repair comes out. That part may need to get replaced anyway. If you didn't pay the diagnostic fee I'd refuse to pay that too and say that if they waive the fee you'll come to them for the future repair.

 

[NYTDIBoy]

The ECU is not your problem, your problem is with a NOx sensor.

I wouldn't do ANYTHING until the repair comes out. That part may need to get replaced anyway. If you didn't pay the diagnostic fee I'd refuse to pay that too and say that if they waive the fee you'll come to them for the future repair.

I don't understand your second line, can you clarify? The NOx sensor is not sold separately from it's electronic controller. My guess is they are a matched pair and are calibrated together at the factory? I already checked your website and don't have it BTW - I used to buy parts from the original owner of TDIParts.com. He lived up by my work and I used to meet him up near his house in Wappingers to get parts from him!

 

[Fastbird]

You're splitting hairs on terminology.

"The Electronic Emissions Control Unit OR computer"

Ever hear of a PCM being called an EECU? Back in the day that's how they were referred to, or as an "ECU." When they started integrating transmission controls to them the acronym changed to PCM or Powertrain Control Module. That statement you quoted is simply referring to the PCM by a couple of different names. You're reading into it unfortunately.

Think about why those THREE parts SPECIFICALLY are covered also. They will have a DIRECT impact to expelled emissions should they fail (ECU can cause fueling to go crazy, emissions equipment to not function, etc; Catalytic Converter, self explanatory; OBD system, because if something fails, it NEEDS to be indicated)

Hate to say it but as much as you want it to be covered, the NOx Sensor and Controller won't be, at least at ground level where you're at currently. You may have better luck pushing up the food chain though.

Truth of the matter is you own the car, it's out of warranty, things break, you pay to fix them.

 

[NYTDIBoy]

You're splitting hairs on terminology.

"The Electronic Emissions Control Unit OR computer"

Ever hear of a PCM being called an EECU? Back in the day that's how they were referred to, or as an "ECU." When they started integrating transmission controls to them the acronym changed to PCM or Powertrain Control Module. That statement you quoted is simply referring to the PCM by a couple of different names. You're reading into it unfortunately.

Think about why those THREE parts SPECIFICALLY are covered also. They will have a DIRECT impact to expelled emissions should they fail (ECU can cause fueling to go crazy, emissions equipment to not function, etc; Catalytic Converter, self explanatory; OBD system, because if something fails, it NEEDS to be indicated)

Hate to say it but as much as you want it to be covered, the NOx Sensor and Controller won't be, at least at ground level where you're at currently. You may have better luck pushing up the food chain though.

Truth of the matter is you own the car, it's out of warranty, things break, you pay to fix them.

If this was 1998 I would have agreed with you that there is only 1 ECM in a car. In the present day however, many of the cars (including VW's) use a distributed architecture. That was the primary reason for going to a CAN bus architecture, so you could have multiple controllers working in unison as one. That's also why CAN bus architecture has turned up in industrial settings as well. You can have a bunch of small dedicated controllers to do individual tasks in remote locations, but when programming the system, the individual units are treated as one. For instance, when I open VAGCom to look at the NOx system, I go to Controller 01 (the engine). There is no controller labelled "emissions controller" or "NOx controller" in the VAGCom system. In industrial settings a setup like this would be called a Master/Slave controller system. In this case the big electronic box most people call the cars ECU acts as a Master and the smaller dedicated controllers located through the car act as Slaves.

As I said, the EPA LAW states that the electronic emissions control unit is covered, that is the actual name of the part on my car that the VW dealer said failed.

You bring up the 3 specific parts argument that VW did, so then what exactly is an OBD computer? Where is it and what is it's part number? For that matter, remember that the law requires that the Emission Control Unit (notice I didn't use the term Engine control module, Powertrain control module, or any number of other acronyms because only the emissions control unit is covered by the federal law) be covered under the federal warranty. What is the part number for that? If that is a specific part it will have part number. In reality, there isn't one part because multiple controllers are combined with software to make a unit the controls the engine operation, controls the overall emissions, and performs the function of monitoring all these systems. I thought my car should be covered because the part that failed has two of the three covered systems. The first is to control and read the NOx sensor (see the heater circuit fault above, much like an O2 sensor heater) and second to monitor the health of that sensor and turn on the CEL when there is an issue (that's the OBD part). That is actually what the intent of the law is, to provide a minimum guaranteed life on strictly emissions related electronic control and monitoring systems.

 

[BPofMD]

Good luck on your (seemingly endless) quest!

 

[NSTDI]

To me, Fastbird is half right when he says your car is out of warranty, but it should still be covered by the emissions warranty.

Anything controlling NOX has to do with emissions, regardless of what the warranty says. The state and federal laws should include everything to do with urea in an "emissions" warranty and they should be changed to reflect that. I hope when the "settlement" rolls out for the NOX TDI cheating fix, this will be included, as it should. I say to VW, if urea has nothing to do with emissions, I'd like it removed, why else does it exist if not to control emissions?

Don

 

[oilhammer]

Just to be clear, since semantics seems to be an issue here, the Germans call all sorts of things "control unit". A turn signal flasher can be called a "directional lamp control unit".

The mandated Federal emissions warranty, which is pretty useless anyways, just covers the actual engine computer, not any other "control units". Sometimes the generic translations of certain items are what stumbles people up. A NOx sensor (not a "knock" sensor, which is again something people have trouble with making the distinction between the two very different items) is NOT covered under the Federal mandated warranty, period. Never was.

Now, the NOx sensors (doesn't matter what car, they all work the same) has a little "box" attached to it, and this is sort of an interface with the engine controller. So in the case of this particular sensor, it is called "NOx sensor with control unit". It is NOT part of, nor integral with, the engine controller. So put the words "control unit" out of your thinking, as it does not apply to the warranty.

FWIW, I have replaced quite a few of these. They updated the part some time in 2013 model year, and that newer part supercedes the old one. We replace them on Sprinters, too.

Personally, though, right now, I would not do anything. In light of what is going on, there is a good chance a bunch of stuff will get changed or modified on the car anyway. Although there is a possibility it will just be a software change on the CKRA, there is also a possibility of something more like a larger NOx catalyst, or different reductant injector, who knows at this point.

 

[740GLE]

If you do get the part changed out due to needing a sticker and a registered car, keep receipts and a paper trail and then cross your fingers that you can have VWoA reimburse you once the "fix" has been released.

BTW another system that wasn't covered by the federal emission warranty was the EGR exhaust flap valve, mine went out around 60K. $500-700 dealer replacement. VWoA did a good faith extended warranty on the part sometime in 2012, many people were able to get their money back.

 

[cfm56]

we had a code for the 02 sensor and that too wasn't covered under the emissions warranty. We had to go through our extended warranty.... first car ive ever had the o2 sensor fail and fail so early (39k miles). Within 3k miles out of factory warranty we've had the check eng light come on 3 times and used the extended warranty for two of those visits. Makes you wonder what crap parts vw puts in these cars and or where else they cut corners

 

[White Passat]

I went through the same fire drill with Honda. $1300 in parts that were part of the emissions system but not covered by warranty because they failed at 40,000 miles due to wear, not a defect, blah, blah, blah. The warranty wasn't worth the paper it was printed on.

 

[LogicBomb]

Just had a NOx sensor replaced, I think they said the one prior to the DPF, under warranty. It crapped out around 54,000 miles, and I was prepared to pay for the item. I talked to the dealership and it was around 560 installed. The service adviser also suggested I call VW to make sure it was elevated to them, as they do goodwill coverage at times. I did, but didn't get any promises from the CSR and that he would elevate the claim if the dealership had not yet. This is the second item they've covered an out of warranty item under this policy. I had the heater core get clogged around 48,000 miles, and VW too covered that.

 

[NYTDIBoy]

Just a quick update, I have found the proper person to talk to at the EPA. The guy also is in on the lawsuit just recently posted about. I have sent him the information I have so far and am waiting to hear back from him.