VW Won't Attempt to Regain Diesel Leadership in US; Many TDI Models May Never Return

ApriliaNut

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Location
SoCal
TDI
06 pkg 1 Jetta 191k w/Malone Stage 2
Guessing that would be the accord he/she bought.:rolleyes:

Oh.... missed that somehow lol. And it wuz right there in the sig!!

Thanks for filling in the blanks 4me!

I seem to have a case lately of "pre-zheimers"....
 
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respond2us

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Location
Tulsa, Oklahoma
TDI
Jetta, 99.5, Custom - Funky Green. 99 NB TDI, 06 Jetta TDI
However, the complexity of TDIs was getting harder and harder to justify when gassers have been improving in mileage and torque.
Really great point. I've always loved the diesels for economy, power and longevity. You mentioned gassers for fuel economy and power, but I still feel like the diesels will last a lot longer than the gas cars. Of course, gas engines last a lot longer now than they used to, though not in the neighborhood of TDI's as far as I know. Again, though, good point. I like the way you're thinking.
 

cevans

TDIClub Enthusiast, TDI Parts Ninja Vendor , w/Bus
Joined
Sep 24, 2002
Location
Hingham, MA
TDI
2015 Jetta TDI 6spd // 2015 Bettle Conv. 6-Speed
Really great point. I've always loved the diesels for economy, power and longevity. You mentioned gassers for fuel economy and power, but I still feel like the diesels will last a lot longer than the gas cars. Of course, gas engines last a lot longer now than they used to, though not in the neighborhood of TDI's as far as I know. Again, though, good point. I like the way you're thinking.
The other thing that people don't talk about enough is that diesel is not alone in increasingly complex emissions systems. These benefits you talk about, increased power and MPG in gasoline, come from the switch to direct injection - GDI. However:

"GDI enables better fuel economy and therefore a further reduction in CO2 emissions compared to fuel port injection engines
GDI engines show significantly higher PM and PN emissions while compared to fuel port injection engines"
- http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer12_bischof.pdf

EURO and the EPA have caught on to this and are requiring particulate filters to be installed in GDI engines as well. Plus, GDI engines emit higher CO2 levels, requiring more expensive and complicated catalysts.

If diesel is done, gasoline isn't far off either. IMO all this crap misses the point. We're trying to fix the symptom, not the problem - the problem is that we drive too much. We commute too far, drive too far to go shopping, have pathetic public transportation systems etc. Plus, since there are no regulations on what we are ALLOWED to drive (I can take a 1 ton truck rather than my Jetta TDI, fuel economy be damned, whenever I please) all these regulations serve to do is unfairly harm compact economy car drivers with overly-expensive, complicated, hard to repair emissions equipment.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
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Location
Newark, OH
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None
It's worth noting that port injection gasoline engines can have quite decent thermal efficiency, especially if you add an electric system to make up for the loss of torque required by avoiding detonation...
 

GWbiker

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Location
Arizona
TDI
2015 Golf S TDI 4dr.
We had gasoline powered cars in the mid '80's with great fuel mileage. Does anyone remember the Chevrolet Sprint? I owned one. Made by Suzuki. 2dr sedan, 3 cylinder motor, 5 speed, no AC, no power brakes and no power steering. 12" wheels and narrow tires. 54MPG on RUG.

It did not sell too well.

Mitsubishi imported the Plymouth Champ and the Dodge Colt with fuel mileage near 40MPG.

Again, didn't sell well.

American drivers want big tricked out SUV of PU trucks to impress themselves and others and they don't care about fuel mileage or price of gasoline.

That's my opinion.
 

flee

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Location
Chatsworth, CA
TDI
2002 Jetta GLS wagon
The other thing that people don't talk about enough is that diesel is not alone in increasingly complex emissions systems. These benefits you talk about, increased power and MPG in gasoline, come from the switch to direct injection - GDI. However:
"GDI enables better fuel economy and therefore a further reduction in CO2 emissions compared to fuel port injection engines
GDI engines show significantly higher PM and PN emissions while compared to fuel port injection engines"
- http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f8/deer12_bischof.pdf
EURO and the EPA have caught on to this and are requiring particulate filters to be installed in GDI engines as well. Plus, GDI engines emit higher CO2 levels, requiring more expensive and complicated catalysts.
If diesel is done, gasoline isn't far off either. IMO all this crap misses the point. We're trying to fix the symptom, not the problem - the problem is that we drive too much. We commute too far, drive too far to go shopping, have pathetic public transportation systems etc. Plus, since there are no regulations on what we are ALLOWED to drive (I can take a 1 ton truck rather than my Jetta TDI, fuel economy be damned, whenever I please) all these regulations serve to do is unfairly harm compact economy car drivers with overly-expensive, complicated, hard to repair emissions equipment.
Which is it? Pretty hard to have better MPG and higher CO2 unless, maybe,
there are reduced CO emissions. That would be an acceptable trade-off, though.
 

turbovan+tdi

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Joined
Mar 23, 2014
Location
Abbotsford, BC.
TDI
2003 TDI 2.0L ALH, auto, silver wagon, lowered, Colt stage 2 cam, ported head,205 injectors, 1756 turbo, Malone 2.0, 3" exhaust, 18" BBS RC GLI rims. 2004 blue GSW TDI, 5 speed, lowered, GLI BBS wheels painted black, Malone stage 2, Aerotur
Sweet, my diesel fleet will make me rich, muhhhahahahaha!
 

Gary Barnhill

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2001
Location
Corona del Mar, CA
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SE SR & Nav
they don't care about fuel mileage or price of gasoline.

That's my opinion.[/QUOTE]

Agree.

If you told someone: you can lease this car for nothing but as you drive along you must throw a dollar bill out the window every single mile.

Or if a new 991 Porsche it's more like $5 every mile.

That's just for depreciation; you still have to toss a quarter out the window every mile for the fuel.
.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Mercedes is putting a fortune into clean diesel for MY2018. It already is clean down to 55 degrees ambient temp and I think they're aiming for clean at lower temps with the investment. It can be done. Maybe VW will rethink when they live past dieselgate.
I read the article and the posts prior to yours, I have to disagree, or at least partially. I don't think we will see a new VW branded diesel in the US for at least ten years. However, we will see VWAG diesels offered through Audi, Porsche, Bently. Those brands will be better able to absorb the extra expense of the diesel emissions equipment.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Yep, but those old cars' technology was not very good, the new stuff is much better in that regard. I recently had a Dodge Challenger in here, one a few years old, that was a V6 model. And this is the "old" OHC 3.5L V6.... leftover from the early '90s actually, optional in the first gen LH body (Intrepid, Concorde, etc.). A coworker noted how awful it was to see that engine in that car. But I have to tell you, that car has PLENTY of power. It probably would blow the doors off of any old school 318 cube V8 in an old Challenger or similar. I know it has a heck of a lot more oomph than my 318 Dart did, and it probably weighs more too. The newer Pentastar V6 is even more powerful... I think they are almost 300hp. That is a lot of power. The only thing a V8 is needed in that car for is doing burnouts. Well, they sound neater too. :p
Consumers are just power hungry, then rarely ever use it. Fact is you can go to any rental place and grab the cheapest, smallest, most miserable little penalty box turd of a car you can get your hands on, and even with its slushbox (or worse, a CVT) you can turn the key, it'll start right up, throw it in "D", and stab the go pedal and inside of 45 seconds be tagging triple digit speeds. That is pretty amazing, IMHO.
The one thing they need the v8 for is mileage. I had a Charger a few weeks back running across Iowa. Cruising on I80, I watched as the car told me when is switched from 8 to 4 cyl to give better mileage.
 

ssamalin

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Southern CA
TDI
2015 Mercedes E250 Blutec. Previously: 2006 Jetta TDI
I read the article and the posts prior to yours, I have to disagree, or at least partially. I don't think we will see a new VW branded diesel in the US for at least ten years. However, we will see VWAG diesels offered through Audi, Porsche, Bently. Those brands will be better able to absorb the extra expense of the diesel emissions equipment.
Agreed not before ten years. My point was that clean diesel is still here and under development. Eventually that may lead to technological resources or reverse engineering to the level that VW may use for a comeback. I remember when the MKVI were delayed when they first were released. A trusted mechanic joked that they were probably exploding on the regens. Almost, but more like VW was exploding themselves with defeater software.
 

kjclow

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Location
Charlotte, NC
TDI
2010 JSW TDI silver and black. 2017 Ram Ecodiesel dark red with brown and beige interior.
Actually Americans do care about gas prices. They drive the gas guzzlers anyway.
Yes they care. Just watch the swing in sales of trucks and SUVs when gas goes back over $3. They just have very short memories.
 

ZippyNH

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 22, 2015
Location
Southern NH
TDI
2015 JETTA TDI SE
This is true...
Yup...every few years....it's a cycle...
Like a drug dealer giving free or discounted"samples"....
It get your customer to come back for more....
Its a great time to buy a high mpg Car....that's why I bought my tdi...the % discount on my 2015 was HUGE ....my gut says in 2-3 years, fuel prices will be back up....
And the value of higher mpg cars will go up...
Anybody remember the cycle that lead to the rise and fall of "hummer"?
 
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ericy

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2004
Location
Rehoboth Beach, DE
TDI
2015 Golf TDI (wife's car)
Gaudy Mouldings is going to have to make one heck of an effort to 'turn down the suck' if they want to try that and not be met with hysterical laughter . . .
No kidding. I can't think of a single GM product that I have ever been tempted to purchase.
 

srein1

New member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Location
VA
TDI
2010 cup edition
2010 Cup Edition

New to forum and would like some help deciding what to do in the few days remaining to make a decision. I put it off as long as I can. I LOVE my 2010 Cup Edition Jetta, now with 78000 mi on it -- Best car I've ever, ever had. But what do I do now? I have to make a decision in a few days. I paid more for it up front because of the "Cup Edition" and there is not much premium in the buyback for the Cup Edition. I've been solicited by a batch of lawyers to "opt out" of the settlement and let them get more for my wonderful car. Another Cup owner said he's keeping his as by the time the buybacks are done it will be one of the rarest modern cars around. Buyback, keep it and take 7K, let a lawyer get more??????? I just don't know:(:(:(
 

respond2us

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2004
Location
Tulsa, Oklahoma
TDI
Jetta, 99.5, Custom - Funky Green. 99 NB TDI, 06 Jetta TDI
New to forum and would like some help deciding what to do in the few days remaining to make a decision. I put it off as long as I can. I LOVE my 2010 Cup Edition Jetta, now with 78000 mi on it -- Best car I've ever, ever had. But what do I do now? I have to make a decision in a few days. I paid more for it up front because of the "Cup Edition" and there is not much premium in the buyback for the Cup Edition. I've been solicited by a batch of lawyers to "opt out" of the settlement and let them get more for my wonderful car. Another Cup owner said he's keeping his as by the time the buybacks are done it will be one of the rarest modern cars around. Buyback, keep it and take 7K, let a lawyer get more??????? I just don't know:(:(:(
From what I've heard about lawsuits, it's usually the attorneys that win (not the consumer). If you love the car, keep it and take the money. Also, think about what you'd buy if you sold it to VW. Is it the wagon, or sedan? If it's a wagon, there's NOTHING out there that will come close to your JSW, not to mention that it's a Cup edition.
I have a '10 JSW with low miles that I wouldn't sell for $30k. I just love that car and it's what I've always wanted.
In summary: If you love it, drive it.
 

bhtooefr

TDIClub Enthusiast, ToofTek Inventor
Joined
Oct 16, 2005
Location
Newark, OH
TDI
None
Could've been someone putting the Thunder Bunny bumper kit on a 2009 JSW (won't work on a 2010 unless you also retrofit the Mk5 hood, fenders, and headlights), that was a standard VW aftermarket accessory, and was most of the appearance package on the Cup.
 

tikal

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2001
Location
Southeast Texas
TDI
2004 Passat Wagon (chainless + 5 MT + GDE tune)
Clearly we can improve efficiency by just downsizing our vehicles. Pure laws of physics, correct? So I need to disagree with your notion of marketing. In my opinion no matter how much 'slick' marketing the auto manufacturers are going to 'invest' in the average American buyer is not willing to downsize:

* Three cylinder diesel-electric car -- No Thank you
* Car with manual transmission -- No Thank you
* Midsize wagon with a diesel or an efficient gas engine (think of Mazda 6 or similar) -- No Thank you
* A smaller electrical or hybrid SUV -- Maybe depending on price and cost of gasoline. At $2 a gallon gas probably NO because it is going to cost more than an equivalent gasoline vehicle and/or the range is a non-starter.

On the other hand if you bring:

* Midsize gasoline powered SUV 'sensibly' priced around $30K -- YES PLEASE
* Pickup truck with lots of horse power (torque is secondary) -- YES PLEASE

Sometimes we think that the hybrid/electrical vehicle 'revolution' is like the smartphone innovation that occurred around 2007 and everybody wants one. Sorry to say but anything small, no matter how efficient, is not going to appeal the average American (which is less likely to be on TDIClub by the way). Even worse with gas nowadays at $2/gallon.

You know, I visited a local VW dealership to inquire about when the release would be for the remaining TDIs in their inventory. Drove a new 1.4T Jetta which I must say was not bad at all. Salesman said the move for all the Euros in America was to smaller turbocharged cars to make the mandated manufacturer future MPG targets. He owned one himself and said he's getting 35mpg all day on the highway at around 75mph. Don't know if it was a "sell" or not, so can anybody else confirm??

Anyways, VW would be over the moon smart to design and release a 3
cylinder diesel/electric car to the us. Buy the stupid batteries and design from Toyota or whatnot if they have to, but get 'er done!!!

They could take a (feigned) "We're so sorry for what we've done and we're gonna make it up to you big time with this jewel"...

I would think 80-100 mpg would be easily attainable.

It's all in the marketing. Marketing, marketing marketing...
 

aja8888

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Dec 25, 2007
Location
Texas..RETIRED 12/31/17
TDI
Out of TDI's
On the other hand if you bring:

* Midsize gasoline powered SUV 'sensibly' priced around $30K -- YES PLEASE
* Pickup truck with lots of horse power (torque is secondary) -- YES PLEASE
Strangely enough, these are the same people that buy an entire house of double pane window replacements for $30- $40 K believing that they will "save" energy. They never ask to see the facts of the payback math.

(yet they won't get caught driving a fuel efficient vehicle)
 
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