VW Won't Attempt to Regain Diesel Leadership in US; Many TDI Models May Never Return

[bhtooefr]

And the Mercedes OM60x engines were oversquare, IIRC - 87 x 84 mm.

 

[kjclow]

Toyota has never put a manual transmission in a prius. I'd have to believe it would be the most unsought after model made if they did.

When Honda first rolled out the civic hybrid, you could get a manual. Every time I let up on the clutch the engine would kick on. The stop start technology was not very effective.

 

[bhtooefr]

The hybrid system used by the Insight, Civic, and CR-Z (the only manual transmission hybrids that I'm aware of, although they also had CVT versions) was designed such that it couldn't propel the vehicle on electric alone.

So, the stop-start system on that car would have been similar to a purely ICE car with one - the general rule is that manuals will stop the engine in neutral only, although it seems Honda also went for depressed clutches.

Here's how the auto stop worked on the first-gen Insight: http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclopedia/enidlestop.html

 

[HBarlow]

What does all this battery powered roller skate crap have to do with a VW TDI?

Why are you posting this silly nonsense in a TDI forum?

 

[kjclow]

The hybrid system used by the Insight, Civic, and CR-Z (the only manual transmission hybrids that I'm aware of, although they also had CVT versions) was designed such that it couldn't propel the vehicle on electric alone.

So, the stop-start system on that car would have been similar to a purely ICE car with one - the general rule is that manuals will stop the engine in neutral only, although it seems Honda also went for depressed clutches.

Here's how the auto stop worked on the first-gen Insight: http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclopedia/enidlestop.html

I know the civic hybrid was offered in 05 with a manual because I almost bought one. Might have been an 04 since it was December of 04.

 

[turbocharged798]

Stop posting this Prius crap nonsence. If I want to read it I can go to a Prius forum.

 

[flee]

What does all this battery powered roller skate crap have to do with a VW TDI?
Why are you posting this silly nonsense in a TDI forum?

Exactly my reaction when you post your silly political nonsense in a TDI forum.

 

[HBarlow]

Whining again are you?

 

[TDI2000Zim]

VW would be foolish to give it all up in view of GM filling the void: http://www.fool.com/investing/2016/09/25/why-gm-is-offering-a-diesel-in-2018-chevy-equinox.aspx

 

[flee]

Whining again are you?

I prefer to call it speaking truth to the self-righteous.

 

[tikal]

Only ever seen one VAG DPF need to be replaced to to soot loading. So that is hardly an issue.

Brian, I was thinking more of the more instances (not rare based on TDIClub postings and specific instances I know of) where the engine light comes indicating the "DPF needs cleaning of some sort" (my words to get an idea). So the DPF is not kaput but needs some kind of maintenance and you looking at a $300 bill or so. I presume if you drive the car hard from time to time (Italian tune up) then this scenario is less likely to occur.

Are there other DPF designs in light duty diesel engines easier (less expensive) to do preventive maintenance than the VW CR ones?

 

[n1das]

Brian, I was thinking more of the more instances (not rare based on TDIClub postings and specific instances I know of) where the engine light comes indicating the "DPF needs cleaning of some sort" (my words to get an idea). So the DPF is not kaput but needs some kind of maintenance and you looking at a $300 bill or so. I presume if you drive the car hard from time to time (Italian tune up) then this scenario is less likely to occur.

Are there other DPF designs in light duty diesel engines easier (less expensive) to do preventive maintenance than the VW CR ones?

Few DPFs have been totally sooted up. Many DPFs in the CBEA and CJAA TDIs have cracked, leading to the dreaded P0401 (EGR malfunction - insufficient flow) code being thrown.

To stay on topic...VW not returning with TDIs simply means I won't be returning to VW as a customer. VW already lost me to BMW Advanced Diesel a couple of years ago having nothing to do with the scandal.

 

[oilhammer]

Brian, I was thinking more of the more instances (not rare based on TDIClub postings and specific instances I know of) where the engine light comes indicating the "DPF needs cleaning of some sort" (my words to get an idea). So the DPF is not kaput but needs some kind of maintenance and you looking at a $300 bill or so. I presume if you drive the car hard from time to time (Italian tune up) then this scenario is less likely to occur.

Are there other DPF designs in light duty diesel engines easier (less expensive) to do preventive maintenance than the VW CR ones?

Not sure where/what you are reading, but the DPFs on CR TDIs do not load up. Crack and let soot pass and ultimately clog the low pressure EGR filter pipe and cause a low EGR flow fault, yes. That is VERY common. There is a TSB about it even. But the DPF itself clog up with soot and cause a problem? No.

 

[VeeDubTDI]

Will all Prius lovers please leave the forum or delete your account. Thank You. Don't come again.

And this comes from someone with what sort of authority? You're welcome to start your own "no outsiders allowed" forum somewhere else.

 

[John Kuhn]

As a person who is not sure whether or not to keep my JSW, and who would consider a Prius as an alternative, I am actually quite interested in any comparisons, especially from people on this forum who have knowledge of both vehicles. I would probably be hard pressed to find TDI comparisons on a Prius forum, and I expect there are others like me.
Bottom line: Not a problem talking about Prius/TDI comparisons in this thread.

 

[Sappington]

As a person who is not sure whether or not to keep my JSW, and who would consider a Prius as an alternative, I am actually quite interested in any comparisons, especially from people on this forum who have knowledge of both vehicles. I would probably be hard pressed to find TDI comparisons on a Prius forum, and I expect there are others like me.
Bottom line: Not a problem talking about Prius/TDI comparisons in this thread.

I agree with this. I felt the same way when I had my 2003 Jetta Wagon TDI for the past 13 years. I'm very interested in alternatives to pure gasoline, in all forms, and believe that all have their pluses/minuses. I'm dealing with that right now with my '17 Chevy Volt. It's a great car (so far), but there is no single option that beats everything else. And what works for me might not work for someone else.

Civil, objective discussion will help to inform those wishing to find the right car for themselves.

Diesels still suffer the stigma of being "dirty" and "slow", as perceived by the general public. Broadening the discourse can help counter this, not surrounding yourself only with people who agree with you.

I liked the early point made about the wheel-to-well impact made by diesel cars vs hybrds. It's too easy to focus on just tailpipe emissions, to the exclusion of all else, but politicians, the public, and marketers love to do just that.

 

[atc98002]

I agree that there's nothing currently available that checks all the boxes for me. I want a crossover sized vehicle that is more fuel efficient that what is currently available. That's why I decided to buy a used Q5 gasser, to give VW (and others) time to get some new product on the market. I expect some sort of hybrid from VW in that timeframe, and a hybrid will work for my typical driving as well as a diesel, if not better.

The Nissan Rouge is coming with a hybrid powertrain some time next year, and I'll probably take a look at it. Though I prefer the European car manufacturers.

Now, if the new Mexican Tiguan gets a diesel or hybrid in the next couple of years, I'll jump right on it. I'm just going to give the market a chance to catch up.

 

[tikal]

Great points below. Thank you!

I realize that some/many TDI owners are feeling a little bit uncomfortable with the issue of the VW cheating. They feel that they are "polluting so much the air". This is exactly what prompted me to investigated further what is the full "environmental footprint" of a car. Should it be strictly tailpipe emissions or should it include all these factors: Operation, Feedstock, Fuel and Vehicle Manufacturing?

When comparing a traditional gasoline, hybrid-gasoline, light duty diesel and electrical cars we need some universal parameters to compare them. Ok so for performance we have torque and horse power. Then we have how much it cost to fuel it per mile travelled. Fair enough. But when it comes to the environment and how "green the car is" it is not sufficient in my view to talk only about tailpipe emissions but we need to show the complete life-cycle analysis of all these factors (in bold above). If not, we are not being honest with ourselves in my view. We are cheating ourselves and planet earth.

I agree with this. I felt the same way when I had my 2003 Jetta Wagon TDI for the past 13 years. I'm very interested in alternatives to pure gasoline, in all forms, and believe that all have their pluses/minuses. I'm dealing with that right now with my '17 Chevy Volt. It's a great car (so far), but there is no single option that beats everything else. And what works for me might not work for someone else.
Civil, objective discussion will help to inform those wishing to find the right car for themselves.
Diesels still suffer the stigma of being "dirty" and "slow", as perceived by the general public. Broadening the discourse can help counter this, not surrounding yourself only with people who agree with you.
I liked the early point made about the wheel-to-well impact made by diesel cars vs hybrds. It's too easy to focus on just tailpipe emissions, to the exclusion of all else, but politicians, the public, and marketers love to do just that.

 

[bhtooefr]

So, looking over the study referenced in the graph that you linked, tikal, I'm seeing some interesting things in there.

https://www.nap.edu/read/12794/chapter/5#203

It seems like the numbers are all over the place. They do say that they used an approach to assign manufacturing emissions to specific counties, but they assumed that the vehicle was manufactured in the same PADD (Petroleum Administration for Defense Districts) region, and then the emissions weighted across Census data for automotive industry workers.

And, this report doesn't actually appear to assign a dollar value to solar energy's health costs per kWh...

 

[tikal]

I have so far looked at the executive summary and some of their overall results. I have not gotten in to the details of the study. As in any complex study with such a depth of coverage there are assumptions to be made and you have to provide confidence bounds on your estimates, not only point estimates.

For me what is important in such studies is to be as consistent as possible in your assumptions across the board and the value of the final results (health costs per vehicle miles travelled or VMT) resides in the comparison of these engine technologies and less on the absolute figures.

Right now one of the 'wild cards' here that we should be concerned with is the environmental impact of making very large rechargeable batteries in large quantities in countries that have very lenient environmental regulations. What is the cost? What is the impact of necessary additional mining to make such batteries? Will we have to cut more rainforest to find the necessary minerals? How much are we 'robbing Paul to pay Peter'. Then you have to recycle them properly and so forth.

So, looking over the study referenced in the graph that you linked, tikal, I'm seeing some interesting things in there.

https://www.nap.edu/read/12794/chapter/5#203

It seems like the numbers are all over the place. They do say that they used an approach to assign manufacturing emissions to specific counties, but they assumed that the vehicle was manufactured in the same PADD (Petroleum Administration for Defense Districts) region, and then the emissions weighted across Census data for automotive industry workers.

And, this report doesn't actually appear to assign a dollar value to solar energy's health costs per kWh...

 

[flee]

I find it mildly amusing that there is much hand-wringing about the impact of future
vehicle batteries that have a 10+ year design life but no mention at all of the past and
present manufacture of tens of billions of cellphone and laptop batteries that last 2 or so years.
And are then discarded.

 

[turbovan+tdi]

As a person who is not sure whether or not to keep my JSW, and who would consider a Prius as an alternative, I am actually quite interested in any comparisons, especially from people on this forum who have knowledge of both vehicles. I would probably be hard pressed to find TDI comparisons on a Prius forum, and I expect there are others like me.
Bottom line: Not a problem talking about Prius/TDI comparisons in this thread.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=450330&highlight=prius

 

[El Dobro]

As a person who is not sure whether or not to keep my JSW, and who would consider a Prius as an alternative, I am actually quite interested in any comparisons, especially from people on this forum who have knowledge of both vehicles. I would probably be hard pressed to find TDI comparisons on a Prius forum, and I expect there are others like me.
Bottom line: Not a problem talking about Prius/TDI comparisons in this thread.

https://priuschat.com/forum/other-cars.25/

 

[John Kuhn]

https://priuschat.com/forum/other-cars.25/

Who knew? Thanks for the link!

 

[John Kuhn]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=450330&highlight=prius

Excellent, thanks!

 

[DrSmile]

Actually, not quite true. You can estimate pretty closely. My electricity costs $0.11 per kWh. There is some efficiency lost in the process of charging (I don't have the numbers off hand, but they're floating around on the gm-volt forums), but it's not much.

I'm sort of in the same boat as you, my bought in '04 '05 wagon is starting to feel old and I'm looking at the Chevy Volt or Bolt to replace it. I opted not to go with the Volt so far because I didn't like the rear seating area (giant hump) or the blind spots, and overall I still didn't like the styling, but the tax incentives are hard to ignore...

My question is regarding the electricity costs. When I look at the rates here in NJ from PSE&G, the supply rate might be 14 cents, but there is an additional 6 cent delivery charge. I'm assuming you've switched to an RLM type plan that charges less off-peak, but that doesn't eliminate the delivery charge does it? When I did the calculations for the Volt the costs per mile were no better than the TDI in terms of electricity. After incentives and rebates here the costs for the car purchase were essentially a wash as well.

 

[El Dobro]

Now that NJ is raising the fuel tax by 23 cents, it may start looking a little better.

 

[Sappington]

I'm sort of in the same boat as you, my bought in '04 '05 wagon is starting to feel old and I'm looking at the Chevy Volt or Bolt to replace it. I opted not to go with the Volt so far because I didn't like the rear seating area (giant hump) or the blind spots, and overall I still didn't like the styling, but the tax incentives are hard to ignore...

My question is regarding the electricity costs. When I look at the rates here in NJ from PSE&G, the supply rate might be 14 cents, but there is an additional 6 cent delivery charge. I'm assuming you've switched to an RLM type plan that charges less off-peak, but that doesn't eliminate the delivery charge does it? When I did the calculations for the Volt the costs per mile were no better than the TDI in terms of electricity. After incentives and rebates here the costs for the car purchase were essentially a wash as well.

What year Volt were you looking at? My 2017 seats 3 in the back, although that middle person would have to put their legs on either side of the cup holders. The blind spots are not good in the 2017, which is my biggest gripe.

There was not a noticeable change in my electric bill. My electricity rate, when I divide my bill's bottom line amount by the kWh used, is $0.12/kWh. I'm on the standard flat rate, no "peak" time usage rates or anything like that.

 

[dst5]

2017 Chevy Cruze will have a manual transmission in all but the very top model

Furthermore, the diesel and manual gearbox won’t be limited to just the sedan, either. The hatchback will receive the same 1.6-liter turbo-diesel engine, and the option to row your own will be present on all trims save for the headlining Premier variant.

 

[turbobrick240]

2017 Chevy Cruze will have a manual transmission in all but the very top model

Furthermore, the diesel and manual gearbox won’t be limited to just the sedan, either. The hatchback will receive the same 1.6-liter turbo-diesel engine, and the option to row your own will be present on all trims save for the headlining Premier variant.

Very cool. A manual and a hatchback. Good thinking GM!