VW wins "tampering" case in BBB arbitration

Jeff Strachan

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 1999
Location
Morrison, CO, USA
TDI
2000 Golf GL TDI
VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Some of you have been following this thread.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/NonCGI/Forum4/HTML/001669.html

I received a fax today from the BBB stating, basically, go f*ck yourself. I guess the arbitrator didn't want to concern himself with the facts.

As can be imagined, I'm a little upset by this news. I just wanted to start a new thread because the old one is so long. I'll fill in more details when I calm down.

------------------
Jeff
'00 Golf GL TDI 5 speed
 

Driv'n EZ

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2000
Location
Soot Belchin, USA
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

I'm sorry to hear that Jeff. Seems that all the evidence you had and the fact the computer chip was stock, still didn't make a difference. The Better Business Bureau turns for the Business, not for the Better.

One more illustration that telling Dealer anything is not wise for the rest of us. Not that we want to lie, it's just that the dealer will.
 

speedrcr

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 19, 2000
Location
Atl. Ga
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

I guess VWOA has all the business they need, because reports like this doesn't help sales.
Jeff sorry about the outcome, I know it's too late now but the price they are quoting you is ridiculous, an independant mechanic would... (should) be more reasonable. I know of people with different divisions of GM products, Dodge and Ford that have mods. done, and in no case has warranty been an issue. I was at the Dodge dealer a few weeks ago having a faulty switch replaced on my wifes Durango, when I noticed a Cummins Diesel block sitting on the floor. I asked the mgr. what was wrong with it he said " cracked block, leaking antifreeze, only 70,000 miles and said he's never seen that on a Cummins". He went on to mention that the owner has put a larger turbo on it, different injectors, cat-back exaust, etc. and that he was dynoing 400+ hp, 800+ torque, I asked the mgr. about warranty, he said " sure I warranted it" I said what about the mods? he said " the mods didn't do it, the Cummins engine is strong....it was defective!" Jeff the reason I'm posting this in hope that Mr. Gomez, or his associates will read this. Does VW not have any more confidence in their products than this?
I dont know about you Jeff, but if VW treated me this way I'd never buy anything from them again, and try to see to it everone interested in a VW knew how I was treated.

p.s. I'm very happy with my VW and my dealer, but I haven't had to deal with VWOA on warranty issues....hope I never do.


[This message has been edited by speedrcr (edited November 16, 2000).]
 

Turbo Steve

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Location
.
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Jeff:

Thanks for sharing your courageous effort with us. I'm sick to my stomach after hearing this sad news.
 

ertzog

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 10, 1999
Location
SW corner of Michigan
TDI
2K Golf, 05 Sprinter 118
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

If you didn't tear up the arbitors ruling, what did he base his decision on? It usually is pretty detailed.

Time to tell this sad story to a contingency ambulance chaser.
 

dzcad90

Rolex & gin
Joined
Mar 15, 1999
Location
Joliet, IL USA
TDI
Jetta - 97 (RIP), '03 (Sold), '09
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Crap like this really makes me want to run right out and buy a new VW.


Seriously, get your car back and get it to an independant. Fast.

------------------
1997 Jetta TDI
Upsolute Chip
K&N Filter
Descreened
Broken Timing Belt @ 72,800 (15,100 miles on belt)
New Cylinder Head

caddy@udnet.net
 

Jason Crabtree

Veteran Member
Joined
May 17, 1999
Location
Ontario, Canada
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Somebody a VW has their head up somewhere. Pretty unbelievable. I remember when my folks bought their TDI (2nd hand) the dealer said that any mods void the warranty. Even suspension ones!! Sometimes it makes me wonder about the product we have and the service we receive. If they are not careful, all of this is going to come back to haunt them....

I love their $9200 in repair bills (previous thread). Hell, a used low KM engine & labour to install wouldn't even come close to that much. RPI could put one in for a lot less.

J
 

valois

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

I would not trust them that the motor was scrap anyway, this was obviously a defective turbo, I would approach garrett and see what they say. A brand new motor is only 2000 through parts place for VW's. Keep us apprised to your next action. Take em to court, chances are they will want to negotiate. I would recommend that you do not negotiate with them. Have your lawyer deposition the lot of them, ask him to ask for a continuance 3 times at the last minute, thay have drug you through the wringer, time for payback, get a good lawyer, he can make their lives difficult given enough resources. Again, I will help you anyway possible.
 
M

mickey

Guest
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

OK, folks. The time has come!

I hereby pledge $50 to help cover the legal fees. It's time got get a lawyer involved! And not a "contingency ambulance chaser" either. There are over 3000 forum members. With a small donation from a sizable percentage of those members we should be able to put the fear of God into VWOA on this one. I guarantee if a REAL attorney writes them a letter on fancy paper they'll cave. No way they want to spend the money on a court battle. It would cost considerably more than a new engine.

Jeff: Start up your PayPal account and post your e-mail address!

-mickey
 

JimBob

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2000
Location
Helsinki, Finland
TDI
VW Golf Variant 1,9 PD 100hp, 2003, silver
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Also agree with Mickey!

VW is a great car. BUT the dealer service S*ks....

Let's help Jeff to win this battle!


------------------
Vw Polo '00
TDI 1,9 90hp
 

Jeff Strachan

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 1999
Location
Morrison, CO, USA
TDI
2000 Golf GL TDI
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

How would this thread be going if I said the Wett chip was in there? Hypothetically speaking, of course. (pregnant pause goes here)

Some of the writings of the arbitrator making 'a denial decision appropriate' state:

"While no direct evidence was supplied by the manufacturer there was a good case to believe that the high performance chip did in fact cause the blown turbo and then the resulting blown engine.

"The suspected replacement of the original OEM chip (the ECU indicated no problem with the turbo even after failure) indicates that the consumer may have believed that the chip caused the problem.

"The addidtion of high performance non-OEM parts puts the consumer in the position of having to prove that his additions did not cause the problem.

"The consumer did not establish that the problem was with the vehicle itself.

"The use of these high performance parts took the vehicle out of warranty and were the cause of the vehicles problems."

This is just a snipped of the arbitrator's rationalizing his decision. The argument was never if the chip indeed caused the problem, but whether it was in there. If it was, then it was the cause.

"...the manufacturer stated that he believed that the offending chip was not remove until the second turbo failed. It was the testimony of the manufacturer that their testing (by the module that tracks internally the function of the vehicle (ECU)) did not indicate a problem with the turbo immediately upon the arrival of the damaged vehicle at the dealership.

"During the manufacturers testimony it was established that the ECU had to have indicated that the turbo was malfunctioning if the original chip was installed. A non-standard chip installed into the vehicle would account for the ECU not indicating a turbo problem. The manufacturer contends that the original OEM chip was replaced before the vehicle was towed into the shop."

I want you all to know what you're looking at when you offer financial support for a legal fight.

And don't tamper with your ECM in any way if you have some catastrophic engine failure. Most definitely, do not disconnect the battery or do anything to flush your ECM's memory.

------------------
Jeff
'00 Golf GL TDI 5 speed
 

Jeff Strachan

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 1999
Location
Morrison, CO, USA
TDI
2000 Golf GL TDI
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

And yes, I will find a lawyer. I am also having some regret about having the work done at the dealer. I know I'm taking it big time on the cost of parts and labor. The dealer doing the work is most likely going to be a defendant, if not the primary one.

------------------
Jeff
'00 Golf GL TDI 5 speed
 

garrettp

Former Chip-Monk
Joined
May 23, 2000
Location
Oconto, WI
TDI
2000 JEDI
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

man, i feel the same as mickey. put me in for $100 in legal fee's. i have had it up to here with VWoA service and the stinking dealer too.

get another attorney as stated above. fight this thing to the core if you have the energy, VWoA will have to give in.

as for the core charge for parts at the dealer, i have never heard of such a thing. unless they are replacing them with used parts. if you are getting brand new parts there should be no core charge at all!!!

jeff, let me know and i will send you a check. (towards legal fee's, not towards ric's home brew
)

garrett P

[This message has been edited by garrettp (edited November 17, 2000).]
 

Joe B

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2000
Location
Woolrich PA USA
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Jeff, just a thought before you let VW make another buck. I realize that your car is basically brand new. I am a claims adjuster. I handle a claim every now and then where a quick lube will fail to remove an oil filter gasket which has stuck to the block, they install t a new oil filter, so two gaskets are in place...the oil leaks out and the engine dies from oil starvation. That's one example and I could go on...anyway, the insurance company (for the service garage) is obligated to buy the vehicle owner an engine. By law, they only owe him for what he had. If he had an engine with 10,000 miles on it, that's what we owe him for. So we locate one in a salvage yard for a hell of a lot less than a new one. With all the TDI's running around out there, there's gotta be a good engine out there with a few miles on it. I know the thought of a "junk yard" engine sounds scary, but that dealership repair bill sounds even scarier. In my area, there is an independent garage that works on nothing but VW's. The guy probably forgot more about VW's than the dealership will ever know. In fact, I can almost guarantee that my "little guy" stocks more VW parts than the dealership. With a used engine, no warranty except for probably 3 months or so from the salvor. You could go that route and maybe trade it (at another dealership) or sell it. Obviously, it would be up to you whether you wanted to disclose the car's history. I assume a dealership would run you VIN and bust you. Good luck!


[This message has been edited by Joe B (edited November 17, 2000).]
 

valois

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Jeff, you have my pledge for $100.00 start the damn paypal account! I can prove that wett chip, oem chip it will not make a tea kettles damn to weather a code is thrown, these chips have nothing to do with that, they are siply maps of fuel ,timing and turbo boost, other areas of the ECU are responsible for indicating errors. It does not matter what chip was in there as to weather the ECU threw a code and disconnecting the battery will not clear these codes either, it has to be done with a scan tool. I am with Mickey on this one, their bean counters will not want a brawl with you in court, it's way too expensive, also you do not have anything to prove, the burden of proof is on them. As I stated before your lawyer needs to let their lawyer know that he is going to deposition important people, make them fly there, keep them there as long as possible, do continuances, request documents, hell just get a good lawyer, make sure he knows how to play the game and how you want to play it. Did you have to agreee to this arbitration crap to begin with, I had a problem with a major filter maufacturer years ago. They tried to pull a fast one on me by switching the filter that I had given them for inspection. THey did not realize that I had several independant people make their mark on the filter and record it and when the company asked for arbitration I told them to take a flying leap, they did not want to reimburse me for damages, which was all I wanted. I got a lawyer and ran them through the wringer, when they offered me the original amount had requested, I told them to play in traffic.

I kept records of every phone call, meeting, hardship it caused me. Within the span of 2 months they settled with me for 3 times my original damages, I love Louisiana and Nopolionic code.
Their lawyers indicated to them that there was some pretty archaic laws on the book down there and they were going to have to retain co council with a Louisiana lawyer to sort it out. They were happy to get me off there back.
 

valois

Banned
Joined
Jan 11, 2000
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Another point: If you experience a major failure with your car, if this is going to be VW's attitude, do not, I repeat, do not have the car carried to the stealership, have it towed instead to an independant garage, that way you have expert testimony if it comes down to a court battle. You know that the dealer is going to take the party line (VW's) and will not ever be in your corner.
 

Birdman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Near Hagerstown MD.
TDI
Jetta 2001 Died by Truck one snowy day. Jetta 2003
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

TIme to get SEMA involved the FEderal law says the car maker must prove the after market part caused the promblem not you. Also if the turbo fails it does not show a code there is not a senser on the turbo so how can it detect a seal falure.
Also this is WETTS Chip email there german web site see if they will help.

[This message has been edited by Birdman (edited November 17, 2000).]
 

hotrodtdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2000
Location
Can Am Border
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

sorry to hear of your woes, as for an engine didnt mickey get a complete new engine for $3000? also with all the members in the tdi forum maybe we could locate someone who could get the media involved, big businesses just love 60 minutes comin around.
 

STNK BG 1

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2000
Location
Great Corn Desert
TDI
NB,2001,yellow
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Birdman, you stole my thunder. This is the way to go. I think VWoA will prove to be a gutless backer of their dealers as well. Make them prove that the Wett chip caused the problem. Your repair bill will be chump change compared to all the testing, diagnosing, scenario recreating, etc., that they will have to endure for a trial. Sic 'em!
:
 

RabbitGTI

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jul 20, 1997
Location
Wisconsin
TDI
B4 Passat Sedan
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

This is kinda offtopic, but here is another example of VWs attitude. My elderly parents are about to turn in their leased A3 Jetta. They have had numerous VWs, I have 4 presently and have had many others. Here is what the dealer said. "the seat cushion is broken and you have to pay for a new drivers seat". The things costs a fortune, the car has low miles and my mom said "how can the seat be broken?". The dealer says "the way the foam is put in causes them to break". My mom says "you mean you've seen lots of these". The dealer "ya". So basicly they are trying to pass off another design flaw as wear and tear. I told my dad to take it back, throw the keys on the counter and tell them to get screwed. Then my parents are going to head over to the Subaru dealer to pick up a Legacy.
 

colucci

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 1998
Location
MPLS, MN USA
TDI
Jetta 1998 Green
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Set up the paypal account Jeff. I'm in for $50.

What ever you do, get your car away from the dealer! They've been so bad for so long that they don't even know how to change.

D'nardo
 

GeWilli

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 6, 1999
Location
lost to new england
TDI
none in the fleet (99.5 Golf RIP, 96 B4V sold)
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Damn -

Jeff - go the new engine route. Or heck even a used engine. Have a local salvage/bone yard put a national search out for an engine complete with as much as you need. And drop it in.

Drive the car - keep the old parts until the abritration is done - if you win make VW fix the engine - and then you have a back up.

The place in Auburn Hills should be able to get you a rebuilt engine (Parts Place Inc.) in fact they may already have all the used TDI engines there.

$3000 for the engine - bolt it in - plug it in turn it on and say hello to the TDI once again.

This whole VW thing is veyr upsetting. I have had great experiences with my dealer and their warranty service. Two problems I have had were covered by VWoA and the dealership gave me a loaner both times.

But that said my mother just bought a Passat Wagon and the sales people there were MEAN Nasty - horrible. The only problem was she wanted a 1.8T Passat Wagon with a Base trim package. none to be found. So she wasn't left with much choice as to where to get it. She will not take the car back there for anything though.

Sorry Jeff. Hell even if you did swap ECUs just before the tow truck arrived - it doesn't change my opinion that you got SCREWED unjustly. makes me thing I can wait another 45,000 miles before doing anything to the car. That way i don't have to attempt to deal with this sh!t.

Why does VW have to have such a good product and such crappy post sale representation.
 

dparnell

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 14, 1999
Location
Herron Island, WA
TDI
2003 Jetta Wagon
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Jeff, you're getting some good advice---$9200 is waaaaay to much to pay. I'm in for a sawbuck---please post an address.

------------------
Forum's only distributor for nasty pills and suppositories
 

rgoetz

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 1999
Location
NJ
TDI
None currently
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

I am sorry, but not surprised, to read your post.

If you hire a lawyer to contest this, I'll gladly contribute $25.

Good luck.

Rob
 

Jeff Strachan

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 1999
Location
Morrison, CO, USA
TDI
2000 Golf GL TDI
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Ok folks. I've opened a PayPal account.

Jeff.Strachan@den.galileo.com

It looks like it will take a couple days to verify. Fascinating concept, that PayPal. I had never heard of it before. Mickey, I tried to give you the referal bonus but it didn't like the email address you have listed here. Anyone else interested in opening up an account is more than welcome to use my email as a referal.;-)

My next step is indeed to find a thirsty lawyer. This pesky career/job thing really puts a cramp in my free time...

Thanks again everyone for keeping me encouraged. The primary incentive here is recovering the 9 grand. I know I could probably have the work done for less than half that. I think I would be less inclined to persue legal action if the car were out of warranty. I would have just ordered a rebuilt or low miles engine and done it myself. However, there is a driving force here know as PRINCIPLE. What has essentially happened here is they are denying a warranty claim on a complete engine and a turbocharger because the ECM threw no faults. Not to mention they are charging ridiculous rates for their parts and service.

I will return all monies collected towards the legal fees when VW settles up.

------------------
Jeff
'00 Golf GL TDI 5 speed
 

Stealth TDI

Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 13, 1998
Location
Newport News, VA
TDI
2017 GTI APR Stage 3 (395 hp/376 lb-ft)
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Hi,

Sorry to hear the outcome. I'm not trying to be Ric, here. But I will say that I'm glad my financial situation has kept me from doing any mechanical upgrades to my car. By the time I meet Valois in Houston for the Upsolute upgrade, the Stealth TDI will have over 100,000-miles. No warranty worries!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>With a used engine, no warranty except for probably 3 months or so from the salvor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

His VW warranty is shot, anyway. Go used and write VW off. Don't mistake that to mean I don't think you should go for VW's balls! (can I say that in here?
)
VWs crappy ethics is the main reason I will consider another make for my second vehicle. A Toyota Tacoma isn't very fuel-efficient; but it won't be my commuter car, either. Most Toyota owners I know love the reliability and customer service they enjoy. Sure, Toyotas lack the spirit of a VW. But today's VWoA has me wondering if a future purchase is really worth it.


VW's are great cars, but the dealers suck. If VW was a restaurant, its customers would say: "The food tastes like sh*t, but the servings are huge! What a bummer!

PS: The BBB is really powerless in most situations. Dealing with them is a waste of time, although it must be done for the sake of thoroughness.

------------------
Scott's Jetta TDI Page and TDIClub.com Stuff
98 Jetta TDI w/93k, 802-mi/55-mpg (best)

[This message has been edited by Stealth TDI (edited November 17, 2000).]
 

JeffT

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 4, 1999
Location
Diesel is diesel is diesel!
Re: VW wins \"tampering\" case in BBB arbitration

Jeff, was this a binding arbitration or is there any mention of an appeals process? Also what is the limit of small claims cases in your jurisdiction?
 
Top