VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

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BrentRN

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Yes.
Not mentioned is how some EV's lose value like a brick in water.
I have seen some Nissan Leaf's that are just a few years old. They are the older version with only about 100 miles of range. They are selling for less than $6000. At that price it could be tempting to get one as a spare car for errands and local trips.
 

Lightflyer1

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I have seen some Nissan Leaf's that are just a few years old. They are the older version with only about 100 miles of range. They are selling for less than $6000. At that price it could be tempting to get one as a spare car for errands and local trips.
I looked at one of these last week or so with exactly that idea. Car looked like new. Only had 13k miles on it. Battery was so used it wouldn't go 10 miles if that according to the owner. $8500 for a new battery. You won't be able to give that car away. Only good for parts now. They wanted $3k for it. Who in their right mind would buy that and put the same battery in it. It seems they didn't hold up well to either high heat or low cold weather (the old ones). That early adopter got their butt handed to them with that car. Total loss on what was a $33k car new in 2011 IIRC.

It is my understanding that the newer cars do much better than these early models.
 
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nwdiver

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Would be interested in how to actually save money by getting solar panels. Have they now crossed the economic threshold of actually costing less than just purchasing the electricity from the utility? If so, this is not common or common knowledge. I'd be curious to justify tearing up my roof to put in panels that don't last as long as the financing to pay for them, just saying....
DIY is ~$0.75/w. Pro Install typically runs ~$2.50-$4 depending on location and install. Over the warrantied 20 year life of the system $0.75/w comes out to ~$0.023/kWh if you're in an area with average solar exposure. So a DIY system can pay for itself in ~4 years depending on your cost of electricity.

You don't need to 'tear up your roof'. The new flash feet that are used now are great. They slide right up under the shingles. We've never had a leak.
 

kjclow

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Would be interested in how to actually save money by getting solar panels. Have they now crossed the economic threshold of actually costing less than just purchasing the electricity from the utility? If so, this is not common or common knowledge. I'd be curious to justify tearing up my roof to put in panels that don't last as long as the financing to pay for them, just saying....
I had a quote for solar a few weeks back. Including some soft calculations about selling surplus back to Duke Power, I still came away with around a 15 year payback. With just the two of us at home and a newer hvac system, the salesman said that our electric usage was one of the lowest he's ever seen.
 

Lightflyer1

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My quotes were about the same with a savings of only $5k over 20 years. I can't DIY so professional installation is required. If anything goes wrong with the system over 20 years it will wipe out any savings more than likely.
 

Lightflyer1

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No they are $110 to $200 +/- depending on the time of year and how hot it gets and for how long. Those numbers came from the quote I was given.

Dividing the 20 year savings by the lifespan in months doesn't equal my electric bill payment. How do you come up with that calculation anyway? Doesn't make sense.

The $21 a month savings doesn't make financial sense when I have to buy and maintain the equipment. If anything needs to be repaired or replaced that savings would quickly disappear. A yearly checkup which would be a good idea would likely use that up.
 
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nwdiver

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No they are $110 to $200 +/- depending on the time of year and how hot it gets and for how long. Those numbers came from the quote I was given.

Dividing the 20 year savings by the lifespan in months doesn't equal my electric bill payment. How do you come up with that calculation anyway? Doesn't make sense.

The $21 a month savings doesn't make financial sense when I have to buy and maintain the equipment. If anything needs to be repaired or replaced that savings would quickly disappear. A yearly checkup which would be a good idea would likely use that up.
Ah... your NET savings. How long ago was your quote? Prices are falling ~10%/yr. Last I heard installs are running ~$2.50/w in the Austin area. Unless you have bad shade that's a ~10 year payback after the tax credit. So your net savings over ~20 years should be ~$13k if electric rates stay flat over 2 decades... what are the odds of that?
 

Lightflyer1

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Then the other issue is according to the quote, I don't have enough exposure/roof to zero out my bill, only reduce it somewhat. Now I have two bills to pay.

What are the odds that the system won't fail and require replacement of one or more parts plus the service call and labor? I have seen very few things that go even 10 years with zero issues.
 

nwdiver

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What are the odds that the system won't fail and require replacement of one or more parts plus the service call and labor? I have seen very few things that go even 10 years with zero issues.
~99%; I think one element of solar PV that most people don't appreciate is how incredibly simple it is. We've been making solar panels for >50 years and they've gotten better and better. They're incredibly simple to begin with. We're on the 4th generation of inverter depending on what counts as a generation. It's very rare to have any problems and even more rare to have a failure. Aside from components that were defective (2 panels and 2 inverters) on arrival I've never seen a failed panel or inverter.

Between my systems and people I've helped it's collectively >100 years of operation and the only issue I've had that didn't resolve itself was a spurious AFCI fault that just had to be acknowledged locally. No issues since.
 
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Lightflyer1

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Include panel degradation in the failure rate. When I was reading up on some testing done by NREL (IIRC) some mfg had as high as a 58% degradation rate for various tests. If the panels degrade and provide less power over time you are now back on the grid anyway to make up for it. Solar seems to be like a Tesla car. Huge outlay of cash for something promised way in the future. I think I will stick with financial investments and just pay as I go.
 

nwdiver

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Include panel degradation in the failure rate. When I was reading up on some testing done by NREL (IIRC) some mfg had as high as a 58% degradation rate for various tests. If the panels degrade and provide less power over time you are now back on the grid anyway to make up for it. Solar seems to be like a Tesla car. Huge outlay of cash for something promised way in the future. I think I will stick with financial investments and just pay as I go.
??? Where have you seen 58% degradation in a test? It wasn't NREL. 1) Panels are warrantied to have >80% of nameplate after 25 years 2) Tests show an average degradation rate of ~0.5%/yr which equals 90% nameplate after 20 years.

Markets go down. Diversification is the #1 rule of investing. Having <10% of your investments on your roof providing a >5% return would be savvy diversification. I have more confidence in the ROI of my PV System than my index funds.
 
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wxman

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Why does Lazard show residential rooftop solar as having the highest levelized cost of any electricity generation technologies, even when including federal subsidies (slides #3 and #4)?
 

nwdiver

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Why does Lazard show residential rooftop solar as having the highest levelized cost of any electricity generation technologies, even when including federal subsidies (slides #3 and #4)?
Because they lag 1-2 years behind. The 2018 report needs at minimum the full data from 2017. They may even be using data from 2016. That's also a national average so obviously averaging the cost of solar in Seattle is not going to accurately predict the cost of solar in TX. If you want to know the cost of solar for you call a local installer and get a quote. I know that in my area the LCOE of solar PV is ~$80/MWh before any subsidies.

... I'd also love to see what assumptions went into assuming a $145-$250/yr O&M cost for a 10kW rooftop system... over the last 6 years my 'O&M' cost have been ~$0.
 
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Lightflyer1

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I sent in a request through www.energysage.com for multiple estimates. The one installer with the most/best reviews is NRG. I will let you know what comes of that. I asked to zero my electric bill and have capacity for EV charging as well. TXU is my electric company and my current bill shows usage from a low of 500 to 600 kwh to a high of 1800 kwh. Probably 1000 kwh monthly average over the year. Cost is .145 per kwh.
 

nwdiver

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I sent in a request through www.energysage.com for multiple estimates. The one installer with the most/best reviews is NRG. I will let you know what comes of that. I asked to zero my electric bill and have capacity for EV charging as well. TXU is my electric company and my current bill shows usage from a low of 500 to 600 kwh to a high of 1800 kwh. Probably 1000 kwh monthly average over the year. Cost is .145 per kwh.
Cool. Don't pay >$3/w. Lotta crooks out there. My neighbor paid $5.50/w ~2 years ago before I knew them. Feel super bad... they got ripped off. My last project was $2.47/w but that's mostly because it was 22.77kW.
 

Smashed Ixnay

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I just had a 15.84 kW system installed with 2 Powerwalls via Tesla about a week ago. I think I paid about $2.56 per watt, and $1.79 after 30% tax credit. I'm in central FL. I would love to get an electric car, but I'm still waiting for something that doesn't look horrible, but gets good range.

I want a Tesla Model S, but they are way out of my range. The only other I'd consider would be a Nissan Leaf, but I'm not a fan of the looks. I'll wait a few more years at earliest before I consider one. Hopefully the charging stations will be more ready available then.

Solar can save you money, if you only get solar. You just gotta shop around. Had one company try to sell me an 11.6kW system for $42,500. That only offset me about 44%, so I'd still have a huge electric bill on top of that. Solar would have been $184, and my electric would have run probably another $200+-. I'm all for saving the environment, but I don't have money to throw away. That'd of been an extra $100 on top of my monthly average. I could have saved another $2k on just solar panels, but Tesla was pretty competitive with the others, and when I added the Powerwalls Tesla was the cheapest overall.

My current system was set to offset me 74% when we started my system design. We made some changes, had a Nest installed, and will be pretty dang close to 100% now. I think 9/12 months we'll be off grid, with the other 3 pretty close to 100%. We plan to update our AC in the future (central air unit 15 years old), so when we do that I have no doubt we'll be off grid all months.

Definitely shop around, because I was almost one of those suckers that was going to be paying $3.66 per watt had I went with Vivint Solar.
 

Lightflyer1

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Who did you go with for the Tesla setup? How did you find them? I would be interested to know and see if anyone around here is doing that.

Found it. Solar city is Tesla.
 
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nwdiver

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I just had a 15.84 kW system installed with 2 Powerwalls via Tesla about a week ago. I think I paid about $2.56 per watt, and $1.79 after 30% tax credit. I'm in central FL. I would love to get an electric car, but I'm still waiting for something that doesn't look horrible, but gets good range.

I want a Tesla Model S, but they are way out of my range.
WOW. That is a killer deal. ~$2.50/w is really the price to beat these days. ~$3/w isn't too bad for smaller systems <10kW; You'll be enjoying those powerwalls if you take a hit from a hurricane.

You don't like the Tesla 3?
 

turbobrick240

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Where's a good source for bargains on monocrystalline panels? The best I found with a cursory search was about $.60/ watt. Any brands to avoid?
 

Lightflyer1

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I just had a 15.84 kW system installed with 2 Powerwalls via Tesla about a week ago. I think I paid about $2.56 per watt, and $1.79 after 30% tax credit. I'm in central FL. I would love to get an electric car, but I'm still waiting for something that doesn't look horrible, but gets good range.

I want a Tesla Model S, but they are way out of my range. The only other I'd consider would be a Nissan Leaf, but I'm not a fan of the looks. I'll wait a few more years at earliest before I consider one. Hopefully the charging stations will be more ready available then.

Solar can save you money, if you only get solar. You just gotta shop around. Had one company try to sell me an 11.6kW system for $42,500. That only offset me about 44%, so I'd still have a huge electric bill on top of that. Solar would have been $184, and my electric would have run probably another $200+-. I'm all for saving the environment, but I don't have money to throw away. That'd of been an extra $100 on top of my monthly average. I could have saved another $2k on just solar panels, but Tesla was pretty competitive with the others, and when I added the Powerwalls Tesla was the cheapest overall.

My current system was set to offset me 74% when we started my system design. We made some changes, had a Nest installed, and will be pretty dang close to 100% now. I think 9/12 months we'll be off grid, with the other 3 pretty close to 100%. We plan to update our AC in the future (central air unit 15 years old), so when we do that I have no doubt we'll be off grid all months.

Definitely shop around, because I was almost one of those suckers that was going to be paying $3.66 per watt had I went with Vivint Solar.
If I could find a deal like this I might even change over. The AC really makes it take a hit it shows on the Tesla page. 1 day with AC and 4 days without.
 

nwdiver

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Where's a good source for bargains on monocrystalline panels? The best I found with a cursory search was about $.60/ watt. Any brands to avoid?
Sun Electronics usually has the best prices but their customer service sucks so you need to be patient. I've seen panels dip as low as ~$0.30/w.

The last batch of panels we bought were Mission Solar through Eco Pro. We got those for $0.48/w.

From what I've seen there's not much difference between brands with the exception of LG and Sun Power. Their back contact cells are the creme de la creme but they're >2x more $$$ and not worth the premium IMO.
 

Tin Man

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Nice stories, but there are at least a couple of elephants in the room:

The exposure to sunlight varies a bit across the geography as does climate. This makes only some areas, with current costs/prices/tech available for best "savings."

I would wager good money that those well-heeled enough to be able to install a solar system move on average every 5 years. Dunno if installations help or hurt the sale of a house but doubt they add any "list price" value...

Things will continue to change. No, I don't think diesel generators are the answer, ha ha.
 

Lightflyer1

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Been in my house 18 years. If the setup is paid for I see it adding value as it reduces/eliminates the cost for electricity. Texas has to be good for solar as the sun is unbearable at least half the year, sometimes.
 

Lightflyer1

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Very nice! What was the total cost for that system as installed not including any tax or rebate incentives, if you don't mind my asking? Don't know if your reported cost per wat included the power walls and other equipment or not. $40k?
 

Smashed Ixnay

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Who did you go with for the Tesla setup? How did you find them? I would be interested to know and see if anyone around here is doing that.

Found it. Solar city is Tesla.
Yes it was Solar City, but Tesla has recently purchased them when I started my process, so they were changing to Tesla.

WOW. That is a killer deal. ~$2.50/w is really the price to beat these days. ~$3/w isn't too bad for smaller systems <10kW; You'll be enjoying those powerwalls if you take a hit from a hurricane.

You don't like the Tesla 3?
I do, but I still like my TDI. The Model 3 is still out of my range ATM. Plus when I add options it definitely is more than I want to pay right now. I have two girls, so prefer a bigger car. We plan to have 1 or 2 more, so maybe a model Y will be in my future when I can afford one more comfortably. Model X way out of my range.

If I could find a deal like this I might even change over. The AC really makes it take a hit it shows on the Tesla page. 1 day with AC and 4 days without.
My sales rep gave me a discount. It was supposed to be $63,300, but he dropped it to $53,XXX. It came out to just over $37k after all was said and done.


I went into solar to save money (was going to be $85+- a month savings) but living in FL with two little girls, I figured I’d get the Powerwalls. I will be paying roughly the same to my current electric bill (maybe $25+- less), so it isn’t like it’s costing me much more a month. If I didn’t get solar I’d still be paying an electric bill, so I figured I’d go solar because of the fact I would need a new roof within 3 years, I could get $30% tax credit, and I’d have a whole house back up system.

If my roof wasn’t as old as it was, or there wasn’t a tax credit, then I’d probably never get solar as much as I like it. It just kind of all worked out for me to go this route, and I have no regrets.... yet. :D
 
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Smashed Ixnay

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Very nice! What was the total cost for that system as installed not including any tax or rebate incentives, if you don't mind my asking? Don't know if your reported cost per wat included the power walls and other equipment or not. $40k?

I only estimated my cost off the solar panels.



15.84kW system
Solar Power system $40,636
2 Powerwall Units $11,000
Powerwall Installation & Additional Hardware $1,600
Total $53,236
Total after 30% tax credit $37,266.


I had a company called Solar Ray in Orlando beat them by $2k+-, but Tesla was cheaper compared to their battery method, which wasn’t as big either. They straight up told me they could beat them on solar panel pricing, but not battery storage. For that reason I went with Tesla since overall they were best bang for my buck.
 

Lightflyer1

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Quoting me this thus far. Coming out tomorrow to measure and do a real estimate. Don't understand the high price though.

Total system cost $45,500
9.5 kW solar panel system $28,400
2 Powerwalls $17,100
30% Federal Tax Credit -$13,600
Net System Cost $31,900
 

Lightflyer1

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So I have learned a few things studying this stuff.

In Texas or at least my area, no company will actually buy back any excess power produced, only provide you credits towards later bills that may or may not expire at some point. Credits only good for usage not recurring charges (base and transfer).

No matter how much you produce your bill will never be zero due to base charges and transfer charges. In my case they vary from $30 ($97 bill) to $90 ($303 bill) a month depending on usage.

Due to 1 and 2 above it isn't a good idea to size a system that will provide any excess power to the grid, strictly what you use only. Over 22 months I averaged 1075 kWh a month with a low of 481 kWh to 1801 kWh. I need a system that will produce 13k kWh a year or slightly less.

There are no state plans to help in any way just the Federal Tax Credit. No companies in my area help either. So the Federal Tax Credit is it as far as benefits go.

The one estimate I got back with this in mind says a payoff of 16.5 years with a savings of $3900 or so over 20 years ($195/year, $17/month).
 
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