VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

[flee]

cleaner, yes
more efficient? no
fuel to wheels is still more efficient than fuel to electric to battery to wheels

I'd like to see the numbers on this.
Be sure to include fuel extraction, refining and transportation costs and efficiency.
Of course, your statement is not correct for the nuclear and renewable power usage.
In Tin Man's area, these amount to 34%! Welcome to the present.
It's tough to beat sun to panel/wind generator to vehicle battery for efficiency.

 

[nwdiver]

While much electricity is produced by burning fossil fuel, I'm not impressed.

Always 'fun' to go from a debate where someone claims renewables can't work because we don't have enough storage to a debate where storage (EVs ARE storage) can't work because we don't have enough renewables.... LOL ........ *sigh*....... This is why humanity moves forward like its feet are stuck in concrete......

 

[turbobrick240]

Combined cycle nat. gas (by far the most common type) is ~60% thermally efficient. Internal combustion cars are 20-25% thermally efficient in real world use. Plus, they don't recapture any braking energy (hybrids aside). Accounting for transmission and charging losses, EVs are far more efficient when powered by nat. gas generated electricity.

 

[Tin Man]

While much electricity is produced by burning fossil fuel, I'm not impressed.
My 535d is rated among the best conveyances for CO2 emission environmental impact, and the X5 diesel "passed" the WVa NOx study.
We will see how the premium brands respond with decent driver-centered interior designs and better EV dynamics. It will happen as long as battery tech, IT, and charging infrastructure can keep their promises.
TM

For those of you who need a translator for basic English, I will repost my statement for its nuance and value.

Nothing to imply that the 1-5% of the market EV's have captured for how much coin? are more or less "efficient".

TM

 

[turbobrick240]

This whole dieselgate mess just won't end for VW. Now the SEC wants some of the action. At least they're still bringing in good profits.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/15/business/volkswagen-winterkorn-sec-fraud.html

The CEO making clever holocaust references isn't that helpful for PR either.

https://jalopnik.com/head-of-volkswagen-breaks-cardinal-rule-of-being-head-o-1833297831

 

[El Dobro]

VW CPO TDIs It starts off with certified TDIs, then redirects to local dealers.
https://vwcpo.com/inventory/conditi...DI&gclid=CMu-jtCaheECFQ_YswodOYUMyA&gclsrc=ds

 

[Lightflyer1]

Bad link

 

[casioqv]

The cars are hugely expensive for what they are and current battery technology just isn't there yet, by a long shot.

We leased a previous years eGolf because it was the absolute cheapest car that met our needs after the 01m failed in my wife's 2001 TDI and she didn't feel comfortable driving it after I did a manual swap. After all of the government rebates, the monthly lease payments for a year old slow charge model are roughly half what it has cost me in parts alone to maintain the '01 TDI by myself during the 4 years I've owned it. The dealer advertised it as a $39/mo lease, but ended up being a bit more than that in reality with disposition fees and such. She has a short commute that uses less than half the battery charge, along with free chargers at her work so it works great for us.

 

[turbocharged798]

Combined cycle nat. gas (by far the most common type) is ~60% thermally efficient. Internal combustion cars are 20-25% thermally efficient in real world use. Plus, they don't recapture any braking energy (hybrids aside). Accounting for transmission and charging losses, EVs are far more efficient when powered by nat. gas generated electricity.

You need gas to wheel efficiency. Transmission, charging, and motor are all losses. Guessing by the time it is set and done its pretty close to a TDI in terms of thermodynamic efficiency. I believe an ALH was close to 40%.

 

[nwdiver]

You need gas to wheel efficiency. Transmission, charging, and motor are all losses. Guessing by the time it is set and done its pretty close to a TDI in terms of thermodynamic efficiency. I believe an ALH was close to 40%.

Natural Gas in an EV
34kWh (-40% for generation) => 20.4kWh (-12% for Transmission) => 17.9kWh => 17.9kWh * 3mi/kWh (3mi/kWh accounts for charging & motor losses)= 53.7 miles

Oil in a TDI
34kWh (-15% for refining) => 28.9kWh => 28.9kWh * 1.1mi/kWh (40mpg) = 31.8 miles

Nope... as numerous well to wheels studies have already shown EVs use less fuel. And this isn't even taking into account increasing amounts of wind and solar on the grid...

 

[BeetleGo]

I am probably with you there. There is nothing to get excited about yet. The cars are hugely expensive for what they are and current battery technology just isn't there yet, by a long shot. Infrastructure still needs to be built out as well. I am glad for the early adopters as they are willing to throw large amounts of money at the issue with little regard to anything other than bragging rights really. My current 2015 Beetle tdi stop sale car should last me until the warranty runs out in another 10 years or so. Then I will check on what is available at that time.

Clearly you’ve never been in one. They are world changing, eye opening clean machines. I’ve driven each - the Model S three times (regular, duodrive, and really bleepin’ fast), the X twice, and three of my friends have the Model 3. They are all world changing exciting. I guess you don’t factor free fuel, zero tune ups, and regular updates in the software for free in you comment about how expensive they are...

 

[El Dobro]

https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/22/18235135/diesel-germany-protest-electric-vehicles-ev-car-industry
The Germans don't want to give up on their diesels quite yet.

 

[Tin Man]

Clearly you’ve never been in one. They are world changing, eye opening clean machines. I’ve driven each - the Model S three times (regular, duodrive, and really bleepin’ fast), the X twice, and three of my friends have the Model 3. They are all world changing exciting. I guess you don’t factor free fuel, zero tune ups, and regular updates in the software for free in you comment about how expensive they are...

I look forward to finding such a car to replace my diesel 535d. So far, haven't seen one meet my criteria or driven one. The extra cost of the EV doesn't justify changing now, especially with my aversion to forced substantial taxpayer support of EV's. It would be nice to know if any manufacturer actually made a profit on EV sales and service.

The cost of air pollution to society is factored in by some as "subsidies" are legitimate topics, though, so kudos to the first-adopters. Too many compromises for my current needs.

TM

 

[turbobrick240]

New technologies aren't for everyone. Shoot, my mother still struggles to send off text messages.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Clearly you’ve never been in one. They are world changing, eye opening clean machines. I’ve driven each - the Model S three times (regular, duodrive, and really bleepin’ fast), the X twice, and three of my friends have the Model 3. They are all world changing exciting. I guess you don’t factor free fuel, zero tune ups, and regular updates in the software for free in you comment about how expensive they are...

Model S
MSRP: From $76,000

Model 3
MSRP: From $42,900

I and most people will never buy a car that expensive. Electricity isn't free, tune ups on the diesel don't really exist either and need no software updates. I just need transportation not an Indy car, like most people.

 

[nwdiver]

New technologies aren't for everyone. Shoot, my mother still struggles to send off text messages.

You could even shorten that to 'new' isn't for everyone. Aside from the Amish I'm pretty sure people that were alive in the 19th century would still be mostly on horseback if they weren't dead. A car you can't breed? HERESY! I'll get a car when I can feed it grass!

 

[Lightflyer1]

If they found out their horse would now cost $76,000 to start, they probably would revert to walking again. My issue is the sheer cost of the cars. It is so great that the majority of the population can't afford them. A lot of people can't afford the regular cars now, hence the 7 and 8 year loans. Going into this much debt just to be able to travel around is ridiculous. Being in debt is a modern form of slavery. Go to work every day just to turn your paycheck over to someone else. Cars are a foolish waste of money. Buy the cheapest quality car that meets your needs. That is why I am driving a Beetle tdi stop sale car. Economical to buy and operate, gets me to and from places, makes a great one person commuter car and has the long, long extended warranty. I will take it over either Tesla anyday. Get some priced in the $20k to $30k range that have viable long lasting batteries with decent range (don't need eye watering speed/acceleration and such) and I would be interested.

 

[truman]

If they found out their horse would now cost $76,000 to start, they probably would revert to walking again. My issue is the sheer cost of the cars. It is so great that the majority of the population can't afford them. A lot of people can't afford the regular cars now, hence the 7 and 8 year loans. Going into this much debt just to be able to travel around is ridiculous. Being in debt is a modern form of slavery. Go to work every day just to turn your paycheck over to someone else. Cars are a foolish waste of money. Buy the cheapest quality car that meets your needs. That is why I am driving a Beetle tdi stop sale car. Economical to buy and operate, gets me to and from places, makes a great one person commuter car and has the long, long extended warranty. I will take it over either Tesla anyday. Get some priced in the $20k to $30k range that have viable long lasting batteries with decent range (don't need eye watering speed/acceleration and such) and I would be interested.

Could not agree more.

 

[nwdiver]

$76,000 to start,

The starting price of an EV has never been $76k. Even the starting price of a Tesla hasn't been that high in >4 years. They now start at $35k. I would argue that dependency on oil is even more similar to 'slavery' than debt; At least debt can be paid off....

 

[Lightflyer1]

Just a quote from a quick web search. Even $35k for the bottom level car is way high for the masses. Dependency on oil isn't going anywhere as more than just fuel is produced from it and more transportation uses it than just cars. Oil dependency is here to stay no matter what, at least for my remaining life. I will continue using oil as long as it is available and there is no other lower cost option.

Lately I have been reading that Tesla is raising their prices, closing dealerships, laying off people and the government is cutting subsidies for their EV vehicles. I also wonder whether they are really viable as a company. I have to give them credit for trying, as this is a huge endeavor to try and switch technologies singlehandedly (almost). Mass producing cars and putting in infrastructure all at once is a huge task. They are giving it a good try but I still wonder whether they will be successful in the end.

 

[nwdiver]

Dependency on oil isn't going anywhere as more than just fuel is produced from it and more transportation uses it than just cars.

Debt isn't going anywhere either... but you can significantly reduce and effectively eliminate YOUR personal dependency on oil just as you can reduce and effectively eliminate your debt...

 

[Lightflyer1]

Only if I go into huge debt to buy one of these cars. My home was paid off in 14 years instead of 30. I am debt free now. Last thing I need is a $40k car and charging system debt. I can reduce my oil dependency by reducing my driving and working from home and driving economically. I have already reduced it by selling my 2004 Excursion diesel and buying the Beetle.

 

[MichaelB]

Only if I go into huge debt to buy one of these cars. My home was paid off in 14 years instead of 30. I am debt free now. The last thing I need is a $40k car and charging system debt. I can reduce my oil dependency by reducing my driving and working from home and driving economically. I have already reduced it by selling my 2004 Excursion diesel and buying the Beetle.

Man, you got that one right. I too have absolutely no debt. House is paid for, car is paid for, no school loans, no credit card debt etc. The last thing I need is an expensive EV and charging system to live the American Dream at 65 years old. You young pups can shoulder that burden with $1,000 pocket phones and the latest high tech car. And ensure debt all along the way. Hope you make it in the next 50 years.

 

[nwdiver]

Only if I go into huge debt to buy one of these cars. My home was paid off in 14 years instead of 30. I am debt free now. Last thing I need is a $40k car and charging system debt. I can reduce my oil dependency by reducing my driving and working from home and driving economically. I have already reduced it by selling my 2004 Excursion diesel and buying the Beetle.

Expenses are expenses. $1 spent on fuel is no different than $1 spent on debt; But I've paid off everything except the mortgage and that's only because capital is better used earning ~10%/yr than saving ~4%/yr. Now I can drive essentially as much as I want with no fuel bill AND I get ~$100/mo from my electric company for the surplus energy I sell them. win-win-win

 

[Tin Man]

Oil dependency? Slavery? Mother can't text?

Oh I get it. Its just playing the fool...

IT people and their tech worship are so fave

 

[Tin Man]

A much more realistic view of Tesla is here

Tesla's most lackluster new product reveal shows that the auto industry never runs out of hard lessons for inexperienced new players.

The history of Tesla is rich vein of revealing insights and timely lessons about everything from technology to celebrity, but ultimately the whole thing boils down to a single phrase: making cars is hard. That much is clear even in the abbreviated version of Tesla's narrative mythology that Elon Musk recounted at last night's Model Y reveal, which couldn't gloss over manufacturing problems that have plagued every single one of its cars. And when the Model Y finally did appear, it was instantly clear that it is the result of Tesla's near-permanent "production hell": barely distinguishable from the Model 3, Tesla's new crossover is the most lukewarm and evolutionary new product it has ever introduced.

....and the opinion piece ends with:

All of which goes to prove that "moving fast and breaking stuff" works a lot better in the intangible world of software than it does in the all-too-tangible realities of automotive manufacturing. For all the design innovations and unique features that Tesla brought to the auto industry, its lack of long-term planning has made it the worst exemplar of the capital inefficiency that has long been the bane of auto industry investors. If the Model Y does away with Tesla's trademark consumer-pleasing uniqueness without improving its efficiency with investor capital, the Model Y could signal the beginning of the end of an automaker that will make a fascinating case study for generations... not with a bang, but with a whimper.

 

[Tin Man]

Just a quote from a quick web search. Even $35k for the bottom level car is way high for the masses. Dependency on oil isn't going anywhere as more than just fuel is produced from it and more transportation uses it than just cars. Oil dependency is here to stay no matter what, at least for my remaining life. I will continue using oil as long as it is available and there is no other lower cost option.

Lately I have been reading that Tesla is raising their prices, closing dealerships, laying off people and the government is cutting subsidies for their EV vehicles. I also wonder whether they are really viable as a company. I have to give them credit for trying, as this is a huge endeavor to try and switch technologies singlehandedly (almost). Mass producing cars and putting in infrastructure all at once is a huge task. They are giving it a good try but I still wonder whether they will be successful in the end.

Yes.

But I've read that the famed $35K Model 3 hasn't materialized yet.

Not mentioned is how some EV's lose value like a brick in water. Don't know what to think about that, but I hope Tesla can succeed.

TM

 

[Tin Man]

Expenses are expenses. $1 spent on fuel is no different than $1 spent on debt; But I've paid off everything except the mortgage and that's only because capital is better used earning ~10%/yr than saving ~4%/yr. Now I can drive essentially as much as I want with no fuel bill AND I get ~$100/mo from my electric company for the surplus energy I sell them. win-win-win

Would be interested in how to actually save money by getting solar panels. Have they now crossed the economic threshold of actually costing less than just purchasing the electricity from the utility? If so, this is not common or common knowledge. I'd be curious to justify tearing up my roof to put in panels that don't last as long as the financing to pay for them, just saying....

 

[Lightflyer1]

In Texas from what I have read they will not buy your excess power produced. If I wanted to spend $40k or more I could zero out my power bill but would have to pay for the solar panels. I am leary of their lifespan as they would have to last for 15 or 16 years to pay themselves off.

$1 spent on fuel is not like $1 spent on debt. I can choose to stay home and consume zero fuel or money. Not so with the $600+ car payment for one of these things. They want their money every month like clock work. You aren't driving your car for free either, you are just paying for it another way, through solar panels. They cost big money too. If you finance them they want payment every month as well.

I will take putting the max into my and my wife's 401K and 403B and other investments than paying for one of these things. They just aren't a good financial decision in an automobile choice when so many way cheaper cars are available. I am ready to retire any time now and my time will be mostly spent traveling. Air travel, cruises, hired cars and rentals. My local travel will be in my Beetle and several classic and antique cars I own. The classics and antique cars get squat for fuel economy, but are only driven for fun.

 

[[486]]

AND I get ~$100/mo from my electric company for the surplus energy I sell them. win-win-win

around here buy back is 3 cents/kwh, (and selling is 13 cents or so)
I'm betting where you're living buy back is artificially inflated to above cost for the utility company.

If that were the case here, I'd be running a diesel genset to heat the house, selling the 'waste electric' to cover maintenance.