VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

[tomo366]

Clicked thru one of the links above.. Wow...diesel hybrid technology...very 21st century. Now if they can mate it a manual transmission...and even...wait for it...put it a 2-door car. In this 21st gee-whiz century 2-door small cars are apparently just too futuristic...and difficult. Maybe in the future they will figure out a way.

Manual Transmissions are a thing of the Past......

 

[Lightflyer1]

With all of the new modern emissions controls and other things I believe like tomo366, they are the past. The computers will now control everything. Drive by wire is in the near future and very little will be under direct manual control anymore. Kind of like some of our newer military aircraft just aren't flyable without computer control anymore. You just tell it what you want to do and it makes all the decisions and control movements to accomplish that instruction without crashing. Emissions, automation, driverless cars, all electric and such will drive this to the extreme.

 

[[486]]

Drive by wire is in the near future

The bold new millennium!

A year of 2000!

 

[Tin Man]

With all of the new modern emissions controls and other things I believe like tomo366, they are the past. The computers will now control everything. Drive by wire is in the near future and very little will be under direct manual control anymore. Kind of like some of our newer military aircraft just aren't flyable without computer control anymore. You just tell it what you want to do and it makes all the decisions and control movements to accomplish that instruction without crashing. Emissions, automation, driverless cars, all electric and such will drive this to the extreme.

Yeah, with the reliability of a computer, ha ha.

I don't worship technology nor do I trust it with high speed life-and-death decisions except maybe in multi-million dollar military aircraft and those that are not piloted (oh you mean remote piloted drones, no?). No doubt things will be changing, but in the real world, unintended side effects from tech are common. Witness how IT mediocrity has all but destroyed work-flow in primary care medical practice.

Call me old fashioned, but realistic. The tech hype bubble brought to you by "all-knowing" journalists, futurists, and tech enthusiasts world wide.

 

[Lightflyer1]

It is coming whether you or I worship it or not. Personally I don't care for it but it is happening none the less. It is complicated, expensive, and as you say not reliable enough yet. As I get older though and the odds at some point I won't be able to drive myself any more I can see a need that needs solving that isn't available today. Self driving taxis at that point would fit the bill if and/or when they get it worked out. Until then I will continue driving my 1935 Ford and my 2015 Beetle tdi among other cars.

 

[Tin Man]

The laws of thermodynamics and economics are difficult to violate.

Very non-scientific data points:
- number of times got stranded by a manual transmission: 0
- number of times got stranded by an automated electronically controlled transmission: 1

- cost of maintaining manual transmission: piddly
- cost of maintaining automatic transmission: $400/40-60,000 miles or face $2-7K repairs after, say, 120,000 miles of no maintenance

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." John Lennon

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/john_lennon_137162

 

[Lightflyer1]

Very non-scientific data points:
- number of times got stranded by a manual transmission: Many, ruined/broken clutches, bushings, shifter cables

- number of times got stranded by an automated electronically controlled transmission: 0

- cost of maintaining manual transmission: $$$ Replaced many clutches/assemblies, shifter cables and bushings over the years, various cars

- cost of maintaining automatic DSG transmission: $40/40-60,000 miles, bought up others left over kits from dieselgate turn ins, enough for 200k miles. Own VCDS.

None of this has anything to do with what is coming though. Your past experiences and mine don't match at all. Manual transmissions are simpler but not foolproof or trouble free either.

Most of the stuff needed we already have on hand. Radar, HUD, Crash Avoidance, cruise control, navigation, etc...

Just needs greater integration and reliability worked in and some added infrastructure. I also see the time coming where people no longer own the vehicle. Just order up what they need for a fee.

Tell me you wouldn't want some of the newest prosthetics out there for hands, arms and legs now just because they are too complicated and you would rather just have a stub or nothing at all. Some of them are simply amazing in what they allow people to do to resume living a better life after life changing events.

These things are coming and not that far in the future. It will take some time for the old stuff to die out though. Enjoy it while you can!

 

[flee]

It only takes about an hour driving my 1965 Mustang to remind me how good it is to
commute to and from work in a modern (2008) vehicle.
We are lucky to be living in a time when we can still enjoy all the varieties of driving.

 

[Tin Man]

Very non-scientific data points:
- number of times got stranded by a manual transmission: Many, ruined/broken clutches, bushings, shifter cables
- number of times got stranded by an automated electronically controlled transmission: 0
- cost of maintaining manual transmission: $$$ Replaced many clutches/assemblies, shifter cables and bushings over the years, various cars
- cost of maintaining automatic DSG transmission: $40/40-60,000 miles, bought up others left over kits from dieselgate turn ins, enough for 200k miles. Own VCDS.
None of this has anything to do with what is coming though. Your past experiences and mine don't match at all. Manual transmissions are simpler but not foolproof or trouble free either.
Most of the stuff needed we already have on hand. Radar, HUD, Crash Avoidance, cruise control, navigation, etc...
Just needs greater integration and reliability worked in and some added infrastructure. I also see the time coming where people no longer own the vehicle. Just order up what they need for a fee.
Tell me you wouldn't want some of the newest prosthetics out there for hands, arms and legs now just because they are too complicated and you would rather just have a stub or nothing at all. Some of them are simply amazing in what they allow people to do to resume living a better life after life changing events.
These things are coming and not that far in the future. It will take some time for the old stuff to die out though. Enjoy it while you can!

Manual transmissions are much simpler and cheaper to maintain/fix, especially compared to automatic DSG. I'm not so prone to just argue for argument's sake and l likely treat cars differently anyway.

Good day.

TM

 

[Tin Man]

It only takes about an hour driving my 1965 Mustang to remind me how good it is to
commute to and from work in a modern (2008) vehicle.
We are lucky to be living in a time when we can still enjoy all the varieties of driving.

I wouldn't mind driving an old 911 or 912 for good old times sake. New cars don't even smell right, missing that gasoline/oil mix aroma. Should look for the special cologne that supposedly has some of this!

TM

 

[tikal]

Old vs new dichotomy?

I remember as a kid somehow I liked the smell of gasoline ~

Now on a more serious note. Rather than looking at 'old vs new' as a dichotomy (and a false one in my humble opinion) I would go with the approach of "do not necessarily buy/ride/consume/etc. the latest and greatest technology/hardware/software (if you have a choice). Let it mature a little bit more ... "

 

[leicaman]

I found it interesting that my daughters 2019 Jetta SE with the 1.4T engine has a space where a urea fill are would go if a diesel were in that car. Mind you this is a redesign of the Jetta series.

 

[turbobrick240]

It'll be a beautiful thing when the symmetry of this graph falls apart.

https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/diesel-making-comeback-germany-report

 

[tikal]

To begin with I am hopeful in the next ten years for densely populated areas in Europe, Japan, South Korea, Singapore and maybe even China.

For going coast to coast in the US, Australia, etc. maybe we will have to wait somewhat longer or expect the fuel cost to get more like the cost in Europe and then ...

 

[Lightflyer1]

To begin with I am hopeful in the next ten years for densely populated areas in Europe, Japan, South Korea, Singapore and maybe even China.

For going coast to coast in the US, Australia, etc. maybe we will have to wait somewhat longer or expect the fuel cost to get more like the cost in Europe and then ...

Glad that is your opinion. I don't really care what happens over there but high density population areas and skyrocket high taxes on things isn't my opinion of a good future. I prefer open country, less people and low taxes. Glad I am getting older as I hope to die before your "eutopia" happens here. I have been to some of those countries and the sheer population density is crushing. Like India for instance. 407 people per sq/km vs 33 people per sq/km in the US. The sheer volume of people in that country, 1.3 billion more people in 1/3rd the land mass, is crushing. One of the best things I like about Texas is its big, and lightly populated except for a handful of cities.

Besides our government has shown it can waste vast sums of money very easily, no matter the party. What makes you think they would make good use of even more highly taxed fuel money?

I sure hope you stay the minority here in Texas.

 

[tikal]

Lightflyer1, it looks like my post # 164 was confusing to you. Sorry about that. I do not advocate for higher taxes for just the sake of artificially rising the price of fuel so we can 'accelerate' alternative forms of transportation such as electrical vehicles. Not at all. I predict that if the prices of fuel will go up in the US in the future will be more due to hurricanes and other natural disasters plus wars and so forth (unfortunately).

It is a sensitive issue the one of taxes and I like to stay out of it as much as possible!

I like the country side too but right now I have to make a living for my family in a large metropolitan area.

Peace!

 

[SilverGhost]

From my perspective, reliability of modern computer controls has more to do with cost and trying to make components cheaper at the expense of redundancy and/or performance.

Jason

 

[Lightflyer1]

I help design computer chips for autos and I would disagree with your statement vehemently. We do strive to make things cheaper by making them smaller and integrating things. But we work very hard to establish and maintain redundancy, reliability and/or performance through many operating conditions and situations.

 

[Tin Man]

I help design computer chips for autos and I would disagree with your statement vehemently. We do strive to make things cheaper by making them smaller and integrating things. But we work very hard to establish and maintain redundancy, reliability and/or performance through many operating conditions and situations.

Interesting. Cars are getting more complex with more functionality which invites more things that can go wrong.

I've noticed the trend of overall car reliability as measured by combined data from 3 year old cars by JDPower has stopped getting better each year. It used to be that "average problems per 100 vehicles" improved by about 5% per year.

It is impressive how engineers can design things to certain reliability-cost standards, while mass market economics holds per unit pricing to be competitive.

 

[Lightflyer1]

In my opinion cars are about the least complex electronics out there save a few. But they are getting more and more complex and are soon to be the next wave of electronics explosion in my opinion. Computers were first, then laptops then tablets then phones. The explosion of things cars will be able to do in the very near future is going to be surprising. From infotainment to navigation to self driving cars etc the market for cars that do much, much more than just get you from point A to point B. We can build really good chips but getting everything integrated to work together and smoothly and reliably and have reliable fail safes when things do go wrong for what ever reason is even more complex. The next smarter cars will not only have to take into account themselves but every other car and the surroundings around them and the conditions they are operating in, including the dumb cars and drivers still on the road. Everything is going to get "smarter" sooner rather than later. It will be a scary world different world out there. I will probably only be alive to see the very beginnings of it though. Today is my 60th birthday and I hope to retire very, very soon and just relax and travel for the rest of my life.

I work for NXP Semiconductors Inc, currently the largest supplier of automotive chips in the world IIRC. Among other chips used in many different things across the spectrum.

https://www.nxp.com/

 

[SilverGhost]

I help design computer chips for autos and I would disagree with your statement vehemently. We do strive to make things cheaper by making them smaller and integrating things. But we work very hard to establish and maintain redundancy, reliability and/or performance through many operating conditions and situations.

Actually I was talking about how accountants come in after the engineers come up with a well thought out design, and start substituting and changing components to shave a few $ off.

And throw in contract negotiations with suppliers that end up with more "cost savings measures".

I'm not saying engineers design poorly from the start, but rather people who have no or poor knowledge of the engineering come along and mess it up.

Jason

 

[Lightflyer1]

That would probably be more appropriately discrete electronic components and not "computer components" which are almost all in chip form and don't suffer from what you speak of. Integration may also have some of the issues you speak of. Computer chips are specifically targeted to be as small as possible with extremely high yields of very redundant, very reliable and as high performance as possible and extensively tested chips.

But it takes much more than just the computer chip end of things to make the whole puzzle work. But we only design the chips. Someone else has to decide what they will be used in and how. That is where the bean counters and accountants come in.

 

[turbobrick240]

If you want to see the most advanced automotive electronics in the world you can find them in the Tesla Model 3. Head and shoulders above anything else on the market. You can literally see how much more densely populated the PCB's are just by looking at them. Next level stuff.
https://insideevs.com/evannex-detailed-analysis-tesla-model-3-teardown/

 

[Tin Man]

If you want to see the most advanced automotive electronics in the world you can find them in the Tesla Model 3. Head and shoulders above anything else on the market. You can literally see how much more densely populated the PCB's are just by looking at them. Next level stuff.
https://insideevs.com/evannex-detailed-analysis-tesla-model-3-teardown/

Reading the comments section, "density" is arguable as an advantage and the chips found in Tesla are thought to be just average in complexity and power, given the conditions of an automotive design s/a variable temperature etc.

It is clear that Tesla has not perfected the car they make. No need to drool - yet.

TM

 

[turbobrick240]

Reading the comments section, "density" is arguable as an advantage and the chips found in Tesla are thought to be just average in complexity and power, given the conditions of an automotive design s/a variable temperature etc.
It is clear that Tesla has not perfected the car they make. No need to drool - yet.
TM

Not all of the commenters are brilliant engineers, believe it or not. Regardless of whatever claims they might make. The Model 3 truly is unrivalled in the advancement of its power electronics. Of course, it's all been dissected and being reverse engineered by the big automakers, so it shouldn't take them too long to catch up to that car. Being a few years behind is a really big deal though.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/tesla-model-3-stuns-german-engineers-wonders/

 

[Lightflyer1]

Being a few years behind is only a big deal if you are competing, which they really haven't been in my opinion. In some ways it makes economic sense to let someone else take the huge hit to go out and develop the market and infrastructure and then come in and steal it from them. Tesla is burning through money trying to establish and develop everything needed. Not that their cars aren't pretty amazing, but they can't build, deliver or sell enough of them to be really profitable at it. Definitely not a car for the average Joe. So much technology and infrastructure is missing yet.

 

[Tin Man]

Not all of the commenters are brilliant engineers, believe it or not. Regardless of whatever claims they might make. The Model 3 truly is unrivalled in the advancement of its power electronics. Of course, it's all been dissected and being reverse engineered by the big automakers, so it shouldn't take them too long to catch up to that car. Being a few years behind is a really big deal though.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/19/tesla-model-3-stuns-german-engineers-wonders/

Its Tesla that is "a few years behind" if one looks at it today. Yes their infrastructure is lagging but build quality, ergonomics etc. are also.

It's like saying the Chevy V8, which was honed and developed since the mid-1950's is woefully behind. Simplicity is its own engineering elegance. Automotive market is a bit different than other tech, IMO.

TM

 

[Tin Man]

There's nothing wrong with Tesla that 10 more years of development and marketing can't fix. The article from cleantechnica is almost childish in its gushing how "simple and integrated" the center console screen is. Something that completely lacks ergonomic sense and likely (IMO) distracts the driver. To consider the Tesla interior as "extraordinary comfort for the driver and passenger" is a great example of tech worship.

Sure, the concepts and design philosophy are revolutionary, but hideously expensive. There is no infrastructure for long term repair yet either. Calling a $50,000 base model "entry level" (read: economical) makes me wonder too.

I'm not saying it can't be done, but somehow it reminds me of the California fast train debacle. It's not surprising either that Bavarians, who have made some very complex cars, marvel at Tesla's electronics as "simple".

 

[kjclow]

Actually I was talking about how accountants come in after the engineers come up with a well thought out design, and start substituting and changing components to shave a few $ off.

And throw in contract negotiations with suppliers that end up with more "cost savings measures".

I'm not saying engineers design poorly from the start, but rather people who have no or poor knowledge of the engineering come along and mess it up.

Jason

Not disagreeing with your statement as a whole but most engineers and designers understand the cost/implantation curve and know that if they over engineer and it exceeds a given price, their idea will end up on the cutting floor. As a product developer, I've been given freedom to design consumer products but also knew there was a cost ceiling. I presented a new product to my marketing group with my final conclusion that the costs of plant retrofit and raw materials would not be recoverable within the lifespan of the product.

 

[woofie2]

Aircraft starter motors are also alternators generating power. Ram is using a similar system for their new 2019 1500 Hybrids. The technology is coming.

looking at the fuel MPG numbers, it does not look like the Hybrid system saves any MPG's-
RAM 1500 5.7 hemi
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ram/1500?e...=&submodel_id=

The new 5.7 hybrids
http://www.fuelly.com/car/ram/1500?e...=&submodel_id=