VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

[Mythdoc]

The thread can now get back on topic.

LOL [emoji23] [emoji106]

 

[tikal]

Yes please bring this thread back on topic. Thank you all!

 

[showdown 42]

Wind /solar/ VW interest in diesels quite a departure from the original subject. VW is going in a different direction. They are buying the electric thing that they will fail in as they have had in hybrids.

If their brilliant scientists can come up with a 500 mi battery you will have a huge success. Everyone is going for the holy grail good luck to all. I'm sure everybody has the same idea.

 

[turbobrick240]

Well, mild hybrids aren't exactly an enthralling subject matter, honestly. Any discussion is better than no discussion, imo. The drift police show up, and.... crickets.

 

[atc98002]

I spent a couple of hours with a '19 e-Golf SEL today, and I'm seriously considering it. A 2-3 year lease and then all the new ID models will be appearing. That smooth quiet torque is something, and the indicated power consumption was noticeably better than the EPA lists.

The EPA calculates the eMPG rating at 2.8 kWh per mile, and the dash display showed an average for my drive of 4.5 kWh per mile. Temps in the mid-60s, so the A/C was running, and climbing several good sized hills, along with a brief freeway jaunt. If that number holds for most of my driving, that would calculate out to a range close to 150 miles, which I would be satisfied with for now.

 

[El Dobro]

I spent a couple of hours with a '19 e-Golf SEL today, and I'm seriously considering it. A 2-3 year lease and then all the new ID models will be appearing. That smooth quiet torque is something, and the indicated power consumption was noticeably better than the EPA lists.

The EPA calculates the eMPG rating at 2.8 kWh per mile, and the dash display showed an average for my drive of 4.5 kWh per mile. Temps in the mid-60s, so the A/C was running, and climbing several good sized hills, along with a brief freeway jaunt. If that number holds for most of my driving, that would calculate out to a range close to 150 miles, which I would be satisfied with for now.

Shouldn't that be 2.8 miles per kWh and 4.5 miles per kWh?

 

[atc98002]

Shouldn't that be 2.8 miles per kWh and 4.5 miles per kWh?

Yep, you're right. I reversed them. Too busy typing to proof-read I guess. Thanks for the catch. At least I had it right in my head.

 

[ranger pete]

Good to see that VW hasn't thrown in the towel on Diesels.

I think mild hybrids will become the default for all manufacturers soon. I would prefer to see the starter generator be integrated with the flywheel, ala the original Honda Insight. This vehicle, with a properly driven manual transmission, still beats the pants off anything, anyone else has come up with in the nearly 20 years since.

That vehicle had one drawback. No EV only mode. The second gen insight had an EV only cruise mode, where under certain conditions it would shut down the fuel system and close all the valves. It was full cylinder deactivation. But it was still not as efficient as other hybrid systems and could not be used in stop and go traffic which is where other hybrids shine.

What I would really like to see is this type of system with a clutch between the engine and the motor/generator. This way you would have an efficient, low speed EV mode.

Another thought I had was something along the lines of what toyota is doing with the hybrid RAV4. Conventional ICE drivetrain up front, with a motor driving the rear. Use the rear for stop and go stuff as well as snow and drive it the rest of the time as a normal manual trans TDI.

I would love to see such a kit developed for existing TDIs.

 

[[486]]

I would love to see such a kit developed for existing TDIs.

would be fairly easy with the wheel motors now available

 

[Dannyboy]

Sooo nice....
https://www.google.com/amp/s/jalopn...l-bow-before-your-new-516-lb-f-1833978636/amp
VAG range seems to be utilizing the 48 volt systems in all their diesels now, pity we'll never get it

 

[BeetlePD]

.
What I would really like to see is the Insight type of system with a clutch between the engine and the motor/generator. This way you would have an efficient, low speed EV mode.

The Jetta Hybrid has a clutch to disconnect the engine from the wheels & run pure electric. I think the Hyundai hybrids too.

Personally I think pure EV in a mild hybrid is a waste. The Prius in pure EV mode only goes 1 mile and then the engine turns back on, so why even bother? Besides the Insight was only 1.0 liter..... 1 mile of low speed city driving is only 1/50th gallon of gasoline. Hardly wasteful

I’ve driven both Prius and Insight in L.A. and the Insight still gets higher MPG (even without EV mode)

 

[BeetlePD]

We've put 23,000 miles on our Model 3 in 6 months. I'd say the battery tech is there . Actually, the Model 3 starts at $35,000. Not sure where you get the $42,900 number from. J

Tesla hasn’t built any $35,000 models yet. They are starting with the most-expensive models first (the ones 40,000 and up) and won’t begin manufacturer of base models until the summer.

ALSO: I could buy a $15,000 base Civic or Corolla or Focus or Versa or _____ and save 21,000 immediately (including taxes). Even if I drove them 200,000 miles worth of gasoline, I’d still be spending less money for the life of the car

.

 

[BeetlePD]

Ever heard the quote a penny saved is a penny earned? Money not going out of your pocket is more money in your pocket... And IIRC you can request a cash out.

LIGHTFLYER often accuses me of not doing searchesv& reading existing posts. Apparently he cannot read either (see bold above).

 

[flee]

The Jetta Hybrid has a clutch to disconnect the engine from the wheels & run pure electric. I think the Hyundai hybrids too.
Personally I think pure EV in a mild hybrid is a waste. The Prius in pure EV mode only goes 1 mile and then the engine turns back on, so why even bother? Besides the Insight was only 1.0 liter..... 1 mile of low speed city driving is only 1/50th gallon of gasoline. Hardly wasteful
I’ve driven both Prius and Insight in L.A. and the Insight still gets higher MPG (even without EV mode)

The EV-only mode is a hybrid's best feature in heavy traffic urban driving.
It's where a hybrid makes the most sense and delivers the biggest advantage in mpg.
Engine-off allows one to sit in stop and go traffic almost indefinitely without adding
to the local pollution as you inch along, a big plus in downtown congestion.
It's probably my favorite thing about our 11-year-old Escape Hybrid.

 

[ranger pete]

would be fairly easy with the wheel motors now available

Exactly. It wouldn't need to be much power. 10 hp/wheel would be more than enough.

Imagine a 6 speed TDI 4x4 with regen braking and the ability to crawl along in urban traffic without having your left leg fall off from fatigue. It would be the best of both worlds. And I imagine it would be retrofittable to any tdi.

I suspect the only reason we haven't seen it yet has to do with our ridiculous regulatory system.

 

[[486]]

I suspect the only reason we haven't seen it yet has to do with our ridiculous regulatory system.

ehhhh

I can't really think of any regs prohibiting an add on battery assist setup. Plenty of dudes do full electric conversions all the time

The first gen insight guys have a setup for manual control of the assist/regen on their cars, they use a joystick to control it. Bet a similar setup in a more universal guise would be easy enough to toss together, couple wheel motors to bolt to the rear axle beam and a box with inverter and batteries you'd toss in the trunk. Only issue is that there's about a thousand different year/make/model to apply it to.
Make it for A4 VW chassis cars, and you won't sell very many as nobody's going to dump $5k into a 15 year old compact car. You'll never recoup that in fuel savings.
Make it for some brand new car and... Maybe get enough sales to recoup R&D. Unlikely.

 

[ranger pete]

I understand there are plenty of tinkerers in their garages doing systems. I am not talking about them.

Those guys could not do small batch systems for particular models at a reasonable cost.

I am talking about larger scale systems done, probably by the manufacturers themselves as they would have to deal with all sorts of extra paperwork and legal nightmares.

As for it being economically justified simply by fuel savings, you are right. It wouldn't. I think the primary benefit would be to those that love manual transmissions....until they have to make the 3 mph slog into the office 5 days a week.

How many are driving autos because of this?

Wouldn't it be nice to just pop it into neutral and inch along via a low power electric motor to the rear wheels.

 

[SilverGhost]

I understand there are plenty of tinkerers in their garages doing systems. I am not talking about them.
Those guys could not do small batch systems for particular models at a reasonable cost.
I am talking about larger scale systems done, probably by the manufacturers themselves as they would have to deal with all sorts of extra paperwork and legal nightmares.
As for it being economically justified simply by fuel savings, you are right. It wouldn't. I think the primary benefit would be to those that love manual transmissions....until they have to make the 3 mph slog into the office 5 days a week.
How many are driving autos because of this?
Wouldn't it be nice to just pop it into neutral and inch along via a low power electric motor to the rear wheels.

And this is why it won't happen^^^ Against the law to do that most places, and the few it's not, frown heavily against it. If a system ever did get built and sold, I bet there would have to be safety built in so you couldn't do that.

I'll clutch in to coast to save fuel, but trans always stays in gear and engine running in case something happens.

Jason

 

[Rob Mayercik]

And this is why it won't happen^^^ Against the law to do that most places, and the few it's not, frown heavily against it. If a system ever did get built and sold, I bet there would have to be safety built in so you couldn't do that.
I'll clutch in to coast to save fuel, but trans always stays in gear and engine running in case something happens.
Jason

Um, he said trans in neutral, not engine off. Besides, if the electric motors are doing the propelling, it's not really in neutral, is it? After all, if the pure-EV mode disengages the engine from the wheels completely as noted up-thread, isn't this the same thing?

What Pete's talking about sounds like you'd still have an actively-coupled propulsion mechanism tied to the wheels (motors), and the engine is still running (feeding, via alternator, recharge power back into the batteries powering the motors).

 

[BeetlePD]

It's where a hybrid makes the most sense and delivers the biggest advantage in mpg.

And yet when driving through L.A. there’s no MPG difference between my Insight (no EV mode) and a standard Prius...... the EV mode doesn’t save as much fuel as you think, especially since the Prius only goes about 1 mile and then exits EV mode (running the engine continuously even when stopped)

.

 

[atc98002]

And yet when driving through L.A. there’s no MPG difference between my Insight (no EV mode) and a standard Prius...... the EV mode doesn’t save as much fuel as you think, especially since the Prius only goes about 1 mile and then exits EV mode (running the engine continuously even when stopped)
.

That's pretty poor hybrid performance. I've driven my son-in-law's Hyundai Ioniq a number of times. It's not the PHEV or EV, just the standard hybrid. It has no user control to keep it in EV mode, just throttle pressure. I can keep it in battery mode on the freeway doing 60 MPH for several miles, terrain and traffic permitting. Of course, that's just when cruising, not getting up to freeway speeds.

I drove it for a week to work, which includes climbing hills in both directions. My average MPG was 58.6, and that even included taking my grandson to his swimming class and climbing a very long hill to get back home. I think pure work driving I would have been over 60 MPG.

The commute times I drive usually doesn't have any slowdown or stop-and-go driving until I am on surface streets. I'm a believer in the car's ability to make some impressive distance on battery power alone. And I'm sure the battery in it is tiny.

My daughter's Pacifica PHEV will turn the engine off when stopped, even when the battery is "empty". I'm surprised the Prius doesn't have enough reserve to perform the usual hybrid functions with a low state battery.

 

[flee]

And yet when driving through L.A. there’s no MPG difference between my Insight (no EV mode) and a standard Prius...... the EV mode doesn’t save as much fuel as you think, especially since the Prius only goes about 1 mile and then exits EV mode (running the engine continuously even when stopped)
.

EV mode saves what it saves. How do you know what I think?
Your N=1example is like comparing Hondas to Toyotas.

 

[ranger pete]

And this is why it won't happen^^^ Against the law to do that most places, and the few it's not, frown heavily against it. If a system ever did get built and sold, I bet there would have to be safety built in so you couldn't do that.
I'll clutch in to coast to save fuel, but trans always stays in gear and engine running in case something happens.
Jason

What's gonna happen? You are sitting parked, surrounded by cars, all inching along? You wanna have the ability to instantly plow into the car in front of you, if you get a sudden desire to?

Let's face it. EV is the only way to efficiently inch along in a traffic jam. Any ICE, no matter its efficiency is comparatively wasteful.

The car I envision would be a TDI with a completely stock manual trans drivetrain. It would have rear hub motors of maybe 5 hp each and a modestly sized LiIon battery pack. Shouldn't add much weight. A single motor driving a rear hub could have more power, but would be more expensive to retrofit, unless there is a bolt in IRS assy available. Perhaps one from a tiguan might bolt in.

This would provide ample power for inching along in traffic. It would improve efficiency and make inching along not only more efficient, but much more pleasant. As much as I love driving stick, that love fades quickly in a traffic jam.

 

[Tin Man]

I've always preferred a stick in heavy traffic to an automatic that requires constant right foot on the brake. The clutch is feathered (especially with a diesel) and the car coasts cleanly.

TM

 

[ranger pete]

To each his own. Seems a tap a brake with one foot is much easier than feathering a clutch. Especially if hills are involved.

 

[turbobrick240]

Tesla hasn’t built any $35,000 models yet. They are starting with the most-expensive models first (the ones 40,000 and up) and won’t begin manufacturer of base models until the summer.
ALSO: I could buy a $15,000 base Civic or Corolla or Focus or Versa or _____ and save 21,000 immediately (including taxes). Even if I drove them 200,000 miles worth of gasoline, I’d still be spending less money for the life of the car
.

They are already delivering the $35k Model 3. If the lowest total cost of ownership is all that interests you, a 2001 Geo Metro might be just the ticket.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-math-shows-teslas-model-3-is-cheaper-to-own-than-toyotas-camry-2019-04-17

 

[Tin Man]

To each his own. Seems a tap a brake with one foot is much easier than feathering a clutch. Especially if hills are involved.

The beauty of the manual in stop/go traffic is how easy it is to go into neutral. My right leg gets pretty tired holding the brake with an automatic.

Stopping on an uphill incline can be fixed with some manuals having a mechanism to hold an incline.

TM

 

[[486]]

or just defeat the stupid shift interlock on your auto, and bump that into N when coming to a stop


hell, with my LTD sometimes I'll even bump it between D and R and never have to even touch the brake pedal
I'm sure the low reverse band doesn't like me, but I don't care what it thinks

 

[ranger pete]

The beauty of the manual in stop/go traffic is how easy it is to go into neutral. My right leg gets pretty tired holding the brake with an automatic.
Stopping on an uphill incline can be fixed with some manuals having a mechanism to hold an incline.
TM

You need to get to the gym and do some right leg presses.

The amount of work done feathering along a car doing a 2 legged 3 pedal dance is way more than pushing/lifting from a powered brake pedal.

 

[Lightflyer1]

Tesla's online web page says they start at $39,500.

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#battery

Not including a charger or installation and reductions for tax incentives and such.