VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

nwdiver

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So I have learned a few things studying this stuff.

In Texas or at least my area, no company will actually buy back any excess power produced, only provide you credits towards later bills that may or may not expire at some point. Credits only good for usage not recurring charges (base and transfer).
Do you have 'choice' in your part of Texas? Depending on the RSP the credits can be applied against other fees. I have a friend in Andrews, TX with solar. He didn't pay an electric bill for ~4 years until he got his 3 and was driving ~2000 miles/mo. We're gonna add a couple more kW soon to kill off his bill again.
 

Lightflyer1

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Choice as in which electricity provider you use? The answer is yes but Oncor is the delivery transfer company. No matter who your provider is Oncor is the transfer delivery company and you get charged for transfer over their lines. Their charges are passed through to your bill from your electricity provider. There are three parts to your bill. The base charge, the energy charge and the TDU delivery charge from Oncor. The only thing your credits can be used for is the energy charge.
 

nwdiver

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The only thing your credits can be used for is the energy charge.
Someone misinformed you. I know several people in Oncor that carried a negative balance for years. Reliant and Green Mountain Energy both net meter.



 
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turbobrick240

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Sun Electronics usually has the best prices but their customer service sucks so you need to be patient. I've seen panels dip as low as ~$0.30/w.
The last batch of panels we bought were Mission Solar through Eco Pro. We got those for $0.48/w.
From what I've seen there's not much difference between brands with the exception of LG and Sun Power. Their back contact cells are the creme de la creme but they're >2x more $$$ and not worth the premium IMO.
Thanks, that was very helpful. I like that the Mission Solar panels are made in the US.
 

Lightflyer1

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Someone misinformed you. I know several people in Oncor that carried a negative balance for years. Reliant and Green Mountain Energy both net meter.



Not really. As you can see that only deals with the energy charge and what isn't shown there is the base charge or transfer charges. I never said you couldn't amass credits. Green Mountain will let you accumulate them forever it seems, you just can never get paid for them. Unless you close the account. Then they will cash you out supposedly. But what good is accumulating those credits till you die. I was wanting those credits to be paid in cash to offset the cost of the system. Not just sit in an account forever unable to be collected. Ask your friend to have them pay him that $900 and see what they say. Generating excess power just to amass credits that will never be paid for in cash is useless.

Other companies said they had time limits of 9 months or a year. If you have a negative balance for that whole period of time they will take you off the plan until you burn up those credits or they just zero your account.



Notice the TDU (Transmission Delivery Utility) charge. This is a pass through charge from Oncor the TDU. The Provider will not have the ability to use credits for this charge. Oncor wants cash. The base charge also is not payable in credits.
 
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nwdiver

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Not really. As you can see that only deals with the energy charge and what isn't shown there is the base charge or transfer charges.
The $0.117/kWh charge from Reliant includes everything... that's the entire bill. Some RSPs break down the rate... some don't. I think you can request a cash-out, I'm not sure. Either way every kWh generated from the system is worth the same that you pay.

So with Reliant if your PV system cost ~$3/w you're looking at a ~10 year payback after the tax credit if rates don't change in that 10 year period.

There are places that do what you're describing; With PSE in WA state I pay the $8 service fee even if I have $400 in 'credits'. No matter what I have to pay $8/mo. That's not true with several RSPs in Texas. If you have a -$400 balance and an $8 service fee they just change your balance to -$392...

What you're claiming may also be true for your RSP... that's the great thing about 'choice' in Texas... pick a different RSP ;)
 
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Lightflyer1

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I actually talked to Green Mountain, my rsp TXU and one other I can't remember the name. None of them would pay for credits and with all of them Oncor must be paid as well as the base charge. All said there is no such thing as a "zero" bill with them or Oncor.
 

Tin Man

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Yeah, from what I can tell, you save all sorts of money after an initial outlay/withdrawal/loan for what, 40 grand? Much of the rest at taxpayers' expense?

I can understand how this could be a hobby, at least...
 

atc98002

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I think this thread needs to be renamed... :p
 

BeetleGo

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They should remove all the oil tax subsidies too, until then I don’t have a problem incentivizing electrics. The subsidy turns down and then off as were seeing now. So be it. The market is changing FAST. GM knows, for example, that their best cars (spelled Caddy) should take over the EV bit from Chevy. Cadillac has a bigger row to hoe with Tesla than they thought even 3 years ago. They now know that that’s where we’re going.
Like you, I can wait. I’m think 2025.

I look forward to finding such a car to replace my diesel 535d. So far, haven't seen one meet my criteria or driven one. The extra cost of the EV doesn't justify changing now, especially with my aversion to forced substantial taxpayer support of EV's. It would be nice to know if any manufacturer actually made a profit on EV sales and service.
The cost of air pollution to society is factored in by some as "subsidies" are legitimate topics, though, so kudos to the first-adopters. Too many compromises for my current needs.
TM
 

turbobrick240

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Tin Man

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They should remove all the oil tax subsidies too, until then I don’t have a problem incentivizing electrics. The subsidy turns down and then off as were seeing now. So be it. The market is changing FAST. GM knows, for example, that their best cars (spelled Caddy) should take over the EV bit from Chevy. Cadillac has a bigger row to hoe with Tesla than they thought even 3 years ago. They now know that that’s where we’re going.
Like you, I can wait. I’m think 2025.
Please explain what subsidies you are talking about. When I looked, the only "subsidies" (a misnomer since the government didn't "give" oil companies any money) were toward incentives for more environmental and safety oriented activities, and this was just a small paragraph in a proposed regulation at the time.

I would love to learn something...
 

Tin Man

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Here in Maine, VW will be subsidizing EV purchases and charging infrastructure. The ~$3k rebate may get me into a Model 3 sooner than I had anticipated. The future of renewables looks bright now that we have rational governance again. At least at the state level.
https://www.pressherald.com/2019/03/21/maine-to-give-5-1-million-subsidy-to-boost-electric-vehicle-purchases/
EV "renewables"? Wind and solar are, so far, budget busting albatrosses, not "bright" at all if there is no economic viability outside of government (read: taxpayer) supported funding.

The point is to support neither crony-capitalist ventures, nor government funding or subsidies. Proper regulation of health effects would be a start, so for example, coal may not be economically feasible when the health effects are judged properly. Sad thing, we can't even convince people that vaccines are good for the population, so here we are...
 

nwdiver

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EV "renewables"? Wind and solar are, so far, budget busting albatrosses, not "bright" at all if there is no economic viability outside of government (read: taxpayer) supported funding.
Properly sited wind is now the cheapest source of new generation. The Sagamore Wind farm in NM will produce energy for ~$19/MWh before subsidies. Natural gas generation is ~$30/MWh just for the fuel. Solar isn't far behind. By ~2025 it should be even cheaper than wind. The subsidies worked in driving cost down through economies of scale.

All said there is no such thing as a "zero" bill with them or Oncor.
Sure... super hard to produce EXACTLY what you used; Only seen that once and it was really funny. ;) Ob... obviously a negative bill IS possible or the screenshots I posted would not exist....
 

Lightflyer1

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A negative bill and getting paid for the excess power aren't the same thing. What good is a $20k negative bill to me if every cycle it just keeps adding to it? I don't want a negative bill, I want to be paid for the excess power generation to pay for the system. A negative bill is useless to that goal. If it won't put money back in my pocket it isn't of any use to me.
 

nwdiver

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A negative bill and getting paid for the excess power aren't the same thing. What good is a $20k negative bill to me if every cycle it just keeps adding to it? I don't want a negative bill, I want to be paid for the excess power generation to pay for the system. A negative bill is useless to that goal. If it won't put money back in my pocket it isn't of any use to me.
Ever heard the quote a penny saved is a penny earned? Money not going out of your pocket is more money in your pocket... And IIRC you can request a cash out.
 

compu_85

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There is nothing to get excited about yet. The cars are hugely expensive for what they are and current battery technology just isn't there yet, by a long shot.
We've put 23,000 miles on our Model 3 in 6 months. I'd say the battery tech is there ;)

Clearly you’ve never been in one. They are world changing, eye opening clean machines... I guess you don’t factor free fuel, zero tune ups, and regular updates in the software for free in you comment about how expensive they are...
Model 3
MSRP: From $42,900
I and most people will never buy a car that expensive. Electricity isn't free, tune ups on the diesel don't really exist either and need no software updates. I just need transportation not an Indy car, like most people.
Actually, the Model 3 starts at $35,000. Not sure where you get the $42,900 number from. Yes, the most basic cars have some lead time, but the next level up $37,500 is available now, and people are taking delivery.

Tune ups needed a CR TDI:
10k: Oil change
20k: fuel filter
60k: air filter
120k: timing belt, coolant, water pump, serp belt

Tune ups on the Model 3:
5 years: change coolant
100k: oil change

Electricity isn't free, but at home it's half the cost of diesel. And for daily driving I don't have to do anything special to get it: The car charges overnight while I sleep. Even in the ELR I've only bought one gallon of gas since August of last year! I do not miss having to go out of my way to visit a smelly, dirty fuel station. With pay supercharging the power cost is about the same as diesel was in the Passat.. $0.08/mile.

Also, having 360 HP on tap at any moment is addictive :cool: If you want something slower you can always turn on chill mode... that limits things to 200 hp :)

I'm confused why people say the Model Y reveal was lackluster. Tesla said it would be a bigger Model 3 with a hatch. They revealed a bigger model 3 with a hatch. A bunch of parts are shared between the 2 models so production should be able to ramp more easily. No bonkers Falcon doors, no other gimmicks. And somehow this is a bad thing?

Not that you should be forced to give up your slow TDI and herky jerky DSG... But with options that are so much better to drive I wouldn't want to go back.

-J
 

compu_85

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I looked at one of these last week or so with exactly that idea. Car looked like new. Only had 13k miles on it. Battery was so used it wouldn't go 10 miles if that according to the owner.
The Leaf is an exception. Every other maker has some sort of thermal management to prevent the battery cooking itself, or uses a battery that's not as sensitive to heat.
 

Lightflyer1

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Ever heard the quote a penny saved is a penny earned? Money not going out of your pocket is more money in your pocket... And IIRC you can request a cash out.
I have heard of the saying but a penny saved isn't earned if it is only a credit and not real money. You cannot cash out without closing the account (Green Mountain only, the others not even that). What good is the extra money (credits) if they are never used. As I have said already I personally talked to three suppliers and there is no way to really get paid for any excess generation of power to help offset the cost of the system. There is also no way (for me anyway) to have a zero bill. So right now there isn't a way to have a solar setup that will pay for it self in a reasonable amount of time. Still waiting on Tesla's estimate though. If a real buyback of power was available I would probably jump at the chance to install now while the tax incentive is still there.
 

turbobrick240

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Usually, the credits are good for one year. So if your installation is sized such that it doesn't meet the entire demand during peak use months (probably June, July, August in Texas), you can draw from those credits. This is where careful sizing of the system comes into play.
 

nwdiver

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I have heard of the saying but a penny saved isn't earned if it is only a credit and not real money. You cannot cash out without closing the account (Green Mountain only, the others not even that). What good is the extra money (credits) if they are never used. As I have said already I personally talked to three suppliers and there is no way to really get paid for any excess generation of power to help offset the cost of the system. There is also no way (for me anyway) to have a zero bill. So right now there isn't a way to have a solar setup that will pay for it self in a reasonable amount of time. Still waiting on Tesla's estimate though. If a real buyback of power was available I would probably jump at the chance to install now while the tax incentive is still there.
Not sure about the buyback but I AM sure about the credit. If you import 1000kWh and export ~1200kWh (depending on base fees) you WILL NOT have a bill with Reliant or Green Mountain Energy. Not paying an electric bill is more money in your pocket. Divide your service fees by your retail rate... if you produce that much more on average you will never have an electric bill... that's more $$$ that stays in your pocket.
 

Lightflyer1

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We are talking about excess here not just paying your electric bill. As I have said before there is no way to get a zero bill as the base charge and delivery charge will always exist, at least for my area they say. If I produce an excess of energy every month I will only get a credit which will never be paid in cash and I will never be able to use as I am always producing an excess. A credit in this way is about as useful as the money my wife wins gambling online at a fake slot machine. She has hundreds of millions of crdits built up but they are not dollars in her pocket and will never be useful for anything other than fake gambling. Sure I can size my system such that I end up with a very low bill or get very few credits but that doesn't help to pay for the system itself. I would rather have a system sized so it always over produces to some extent and then the provider pays cash back to me to be used to defray the system cost. There are no providers that do this for my area. Since the base and delivery charge will always be there as well my bill will never be zero. So far the cost and payback times without this benefit are too long for me to be interested. Over 17 years. I will still check out Tesla's bid but I don't have high hopes.
 

nwdiver

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Sure I can size my system such that I end up with a very low bill or get very few credits but that doesn't help to pay for the system itself.
.... if the system is slightly undersized and you have a tiny bill a couple months a year the ROI would be the same as if you oversized and got a check.... having to pay ~$20 a couple times a year is a deal breaker? Really?
 

Lightflyer1

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Are you not keeping up? The base and delivery charge will be from $30 to $100 +/- each month plus the energy usage. It will never be $20 a couple of times per month. If they paid cash for the excess that could cover these items and pay for the system. But as I have said that isn't possible. The payoff of the system still takes way too long to make it attractive. One other issue is they all warranty their work and equipment to some extent, but all seem to be small business relatively speaking that could go under very easily leaving you with nothing (excluding Tesla and there may or may not be some doubt there a well).
 

turbobrick240

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I would rather have a system sized so it always over produces to some extent and then the provider pays cash back to me to be used to defray the system cost.
So would I, but that's not how it works most places. Net metering is a pretty sweet deal too, imo. Kudos to your wife for having the good sense to do her gambling with faux money. :)
 

nwdiver

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Are you not keeping up? The base and delivery charge will be from $30 to $100 +/- each month plus the energy usage. It will never be $20 a couple of times per month. If they paid cash for the excess that could cover these items and pay for the system..
Dude... it rolls month to month indefinitely. Figure out your annual use and size a system that produces that much ANNUALLY. Yeah... you'll have a ~$300 credit in June but you'll eat it away until you miiiight have a $20 bill in December. Cycle continues...

If you have a $100 credit in a low usage month that's not lost... it rolls... you'll use it in the winter.... or what ever month you have a deficit. If you had a $200 surplus in the spring and a $200 deficit in the winter would you really want them to mail you a check just so you can pay it back in 6 months???

Yeah... you've banked 'faux' money but that 'faux' money keeps you from spending real $$$... For my house in WA I produce ~5-6x more in the summer than I need and the banked 'kWh' are 'worthless'... until November rolls around and I produce 200kWh but used 1000. Then I get to pay with 'credits' instead of 'cash' ;)

Here's how Green Mountain Energy Bills. This is the last negative bill a friend of mine in TX had... slowly ate away a $700 credit he'd been building slowly for years with his new Tesla.

 
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turbobrick240

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A family friend does solar installations and has significant over capacity at his house. He put his sons power bill in his name and uses his excess credits to pay down that bill.
 

Lightflyer1

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Last post on this as you just can't seem to understand. I want to have excess production every month so that the excess helps pay off the system, base and delivery charges. When the system is paid for then cash in pocket or used for upkeep maintenance or improvements. Without excess production and cash paid for this, then the payback is too long and not worthwhile in my opinion. I can invest my money in other ways and get a much better return and have for the last 30 years. Payoff of 17 years or so is much too long to recoup the investment for me. Obviously those in other areas will have different circumstances and things may or may not work out better for them.

The thread can now get back on topic.
 
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