VW Still Believes In Diesels; Unveils New 2.0 TDI Mild Hybrid

[TDIMeister]

Diesels are dying? Not so fast, says Volkswagen.
https://www.motor1.com/news/240543/vw-new-diesel-engine-revealed/

 

[1854sailor]

Finally!

 

[tomo366]

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/vw-ea288-evo-first-diesel-mild-hybrid/?ftag=CAD-16-10abc4e

 

[kjclow]

Better news if it can find it's way across the permanent puddle. Wasn't the diesel hybrid part of the original concept behind the Atlas?

 

[tadawson]

Now if someone will come up with an 'electric delete' for it . . .

 

[TDIMeister]

Now if someone will come up with an 'electric delete' for it . . .

Then it won't start or charge because it replaces the function of the starter and alternator. You could put in an older bellhousing and conventional starter and maybe fit an accessory bracket from an older car with a conventional alternator, but who knows if the ring gear teeth on the flywheel will still exist...

 

[TDIMeister]

I'm all for a BAS system, although I question the utility of so much work being expended just to turn a non-firing engine in the 48V systems that have an e-drive mode (this TDI mild hybrid will not so I digress, but the 48V one used in the V6 TDI apparently will). More elegant would be to have the e-motor/generator in the bellhousing replacing/augmenting the clutch or torque converter.

I thought of doing a poor-man's regenerative retarder using a high-amp 12V alternator that is common in competition sound system circles. I'd add a bank of 18-20V li-ion batteries but nominally maintaining a ~60% SoC and standard 14.4V voltage. When I'm coasting or press a steering wheel button, the alternator would kick into full 18V and full amperage (300A is not uncommon), giving me 5.4 kW of retarding power that charges up the batteries. I can then descend down pretty decent grades without touching the brakes and recuperating the electrical energy as a bonus.

 

[LRTDI]

Aircraft starter motors are also alternators generating power. Ram is using a similar system for their new 2019 1500 Hybrids. The technology is coming.

 

[kjclow]

Aircraft starter motors are also alternators generating power. Ram is using a similar system for their new 2019 1500 Hybrids. The technology is coming.

For 2019, the hybrid option won't be available on the ecodiesel. At least that's what the current press is saying.

 

[[486]]

I'm all for a BAS system, although I question the utility of so much work being expended just to turn a non-firing engine in the 48V systems that have an e-drive mode (this TDI mild hybrid will not so I digress, but the 48V one used in the V6 TDI apparently will). More elegant would be to have the e-motor/generator in the bellhousing replacing/augmenting the clutch or torque converter.

I thought of doing a poor-man's regenerative retarder using a high-amp 12V alternator that is common in competition sound system circles. I'd add a bank of 18-20V li-ion batteries but nominally maintaining a ~60% SoC and standard 14.4V voltage. When I'm coasting or press a steering wheel button, the alternator would kick into full 18V and full amperage (300A is not uncommon), giving me 5.4 kW of retarding power that charges up the batteries. I can then descend down pretty decent grades without touching the brakes and recuperating the electrical energy as a bonus.

I've thought on it too, with some big fat supercapacitors in the mix to suck up the fast spikes of power needed and produced. Some companies make wheel motors that bolt on, could be tossed onto the rear axle real easy.

Finally decided that nah, too much effort.

 

[cheezy]

Yup, the diesel hybrid that pulls 60-125 mpg, with less emissions in the promise? Holy crap let's go already...You know GM won't do it.

 

[MrSprdSheet]

I've thought on it too, with some big fat supercapacitors in the mix to suck up the fast spikes of power needed and produced. Some companies make wheel motors that bolt on, could be tossed onto the rear axle real easy..

sort of like the old GT3 Hybbrid, you could use a flywheel. i'd swear it looks like one aboard the VW Pikes Peak entry, in pssgr seat.

in the end, 48v isnt propelling much (vs 300-800v), and it is tough to see modding it to satisfaction. it's pre-prius tech, for a couple more mpgs. cant even get decent regen from that. right?

 

[[486]]

sort of like the old GT3 Hybbrid, you could use a flywheel.

then you gotta do some oddball stuff with CVTs or maybe an electric motor driving the flywheel and acting as a generator the other way round. Eh, seems easier to just dump the electric into caps and then do whatever with it from there.

Main difference in the high volt stuff versus the low volt stuff is the amperage and therefore size of components required. You can get a lot more wattage through a #1 gauge cable with 400V than with 48V. Same with the transistors in the motor controller, more power through smaller components with higher voltage.

I'm currently picturing a setup at about 60v with 5 batteries. Make up a go pedal with carbon contacts to power it from 2, 3, 4, 5 of the batteries for smoother starts. For winter braking have a separate pedal that shorts the motor to stainless rods as heating elements. Summer braking just use the normal service brakes. Maybe go with an even number of batteries and work out one hell of a series-parallel switch so you get even discharge across the bank.

voila, caveman tech electric car
I've gotta fit my new interstage intercooler, not fiddle with thinking about electric cars, haha

 

[turbobrick240]

I hope those five batteries wouldn't be lead acid. Even cave men have moved well beyond that battery tech. for EV usage.

 

[Billion003]

Hybrid

Hybrid...doesn't that dictate automatic transmission? I'm assuming soon I will be having to sell my 2011 Golf TDI, 2-door, 6 speed manual back to VW. (No sunroof, too!).
I'm suffering a crisis in choosing what car I want going forward. (a) I want it to be a 2-door. (b) I want it to be a 6 speed manual. VW seems to have given up on these two basic choice combinations.
(3) I want it to be a diesel because of the low end torque. My present car doesn't feel tin can-ish like oh so many small small cars with high revving 4-cylinder engines.
Except for the Beetle VW won't even be making 2-doors. And I heard rumors the Beetle will be discontinued. And manual transmissions are being dropped, AFAIK. (I'm holding back a major cursing fit.). Broadly, 2-doors are being dropped, too.

At a certain level I am angry at VW for this situation. At another, I am angry at what I feel is an over reaction to the VW diesel problems. I get it that NOX are to be avoided, but for what feels like a couple of decades now the idea of the bug-a-boo of CO2 was screamed from every mainstream media "news outlet." Now, I am going to be forced into a vehicle that gets worse mpg and emits higher levels of CO2. Not only because of the gasoline engine, but also because of increased size and the near requirement of an automatic transmission, which all too often is a CVT. (No effin' thanks.)

My wife's Lexus went into the dealer shop today for breaks. We didn't know it was to be in the shop overnight so they drove is home in an RX 330 (350?...brand new). Its a $43,000+ automobile...and from the way it rode and sounded...it...ain't...worth...it.
There's such an astoundingly standardized/average feel to so many new automobiles these days.

I'm in a real dilemma. What automobile can replace my VW Golf...the car that in my life I've enjoyed the most?

Rant off...temporarily.

 

[[486]]

Hybrid...doesn't that dictate automatic transmission?

honda did a manual hybrid civic and insight

the civic is the only one I've driven so far, was really neat, it'd shut off the engine sitting at a stop light in neutral, select a gear and it starts. If you stall it taking off, pull it into neutral and put it back in gear and it restarts. Such a freakin' cool feature, IMO.

I doubt you'd be forced to sell your car back, they might give you one heck of an offer you'd be dumb to refuse but forced? Unlikely.
Either keep it, or take the money and buy an older one with less craziness going on with the BCM running everything from the headlights to the door locks and windows.

I hope those five batteries wouldn't be lead acid. Even cave men have moved well beyond that battery tech. for EV usage.

You joking? They'd be used lead acid off the scrap pile. I'm cheap.

 

[atc98002]

Yeah, I don't think there's a current hybrid with a manual. Some CVTs aren't too bad. I can accept the one in my Subaru, but a lot of that is because it's the 6 cylinder and has plenty of power so the engine doesn't really need to rev.

I think the current Lexus RX is the 450.

I sold my Passat back because the deal was too good to pass up. But it was hard to turn it in, because I really liked the car. I was hoping for the diesel Mazda CX-5 they keep promising, but it still hasn't arrived. Chevrolet has the Equinox diesel, and I would have bought that except I really wanted adaptive cruise.

I drove a used E-Golf last weekend, and that was a hoot to drive. However, the range is still a little too low for me to switch to full electric yet. Since VW still doesn't sell the new E-Golf in my state, used is all that's available, and those only have about an 80 mile range. The current model still only lists a range of 125 miles, and that is still a touch too little for me. Give me 150 true miles of range with the HVAC working and less than ideal conditions, then I'll consider it.

 

[kjclow]

honda did a manual hybrid civic and insight

the civic is the only one I've driven so far, was really neat, it'd shut off the engine sitting at a stop light in neutral, select a gear and it starts. If you stall it taking off, pull it into neutral and put it back in gear and it restarts. Such a freakin' cool feature, IMO.

Your experience with the civic hybrid manula sounds better than mine. I looked at them about 13 years ago and thought the manual did more to keep the stop start technology from working correctly. Unless I was absolutely still, any time I released the clutch the engine would start. Even with the car in neutral and the brake fully applied. Reminded me of the hill hold feature we had in our 82 subie. The only time it worked was when you came to an absolute complete stop and pushed the brake pedal through the firewall before taking the car out of gear.

 

[[486]]

I drove a used E-Golf last weekend, and that was a hoot to drive. However, the range is still a little too low for me to switch to full electric yet. Since VW still doesn't sell the new E-Golf in my state, used is all that's available, and those only have about an 80 mile range. The current model still only lists a range of 125 miles, and that is still a touch too little for me. Give me 150 true miles of range with the HVAC working and less than ideal conditions, then I'll consider it.

Get a nice welder/generator on a trailer.
Drag that around when you want more range.

 

[[486]]

Your experience with the civic hybrid manula sounds better than mine. I looked at them about 13 years ago and thought the manual did more to keep the stop start technology from working correctly. Unless I was absolutely still, any time I released the clutch the engine would start. Even with the car in neutral and the brake fully applied.

hm, that's strange, I'd have noticed that for sure as the only way I sit at stop lights is in neutral with my leg not getting all cramped up.

Maybe the A/C was on? I don't remember if those were engine driven or electric compressors on those, being early hybrids they may well have been engine driven and therefore they'd run the engine just to get A/C.

 

[kjclow]

That could explain it. I run AC probably 48 out of 52 weeks a year down here. Still have that thin Midwestern blood from growing up in Iowa.

 

[coalminer16]

One thing to point out with the voltage systems is OSHA regulates certain safety gear above I think 50 volts. That is why most forklifts stop at 48 volts and commonly are 36 or 48 volt systems.

Good to see there is hope in diesel future yet. The Chevrolet Equinox diesel I wasn't even aware of. Too bad it doesn't hall a family of 6 around so it doesn't give me much better usage then driving two MKIV diesels around but maybe someday in the future. I will be getting the 6.0 powerstroke Excursion running I bought on the cheap soon to be my family diesel mover (if the van is broke down or I need to haul a trailer).

 

[flee]

One thing to point out with the voltage systems is OSHA regulates certain safety gear above I think 50 volts. That is why most forklifts stop at 48 volts and commonly are 36 or 48 volt systems. (edit)

Well, be sure to suit up next time you're on one because the nominal voltage of a
48 VDC lead-acid battery system is 50.4 volts and the charging voltage is almost 60!

 

[Dannyboy]

I believe it's 60 to 1500 volts is classified as high voltage. I'm going for my high voltage auto tech course in a few months and I've been reading up on the course.

 

[coalminer16]

NFPA 70e 130.2 Electrically Safe work conditions. Energized electrical conductors and circuit parts operating at voltages equal to or greater than 50 volts shall be put into an electrically safe work condition before an employee performs work >>>>>>> and on and on it goes. National Fire Protection Agency standard 70 e which deals with the electrical safety in the work place that OSHA references if giving citations. It does reference NFPA 70b which deals with the maintenance of the electrical system as well.

It also states"Equipment operating at less than 50 volts. Energized electrical conductors and circuit parts that operate at less than 50 volts shall not be required to be de-engergized where the capacity of the source and any overcurrent protection between the energy source and the worker are considered and it is determined that there will be no increased exposure to electrical burns or explosion due to electric arcs.

I can't find the definition in my books off hand on the high voltage but I know high voltage doesn't start until at least 600 volts. Plants typically work no higher then 480 three phase and that isn't in the high voltage range. At least in the eyes of the regulatory agencies it doesn't consider it high voltage. I don't play with it and take it very serious when I have to work with it. Volts or amps - each have there own scary issues. Volts make the arc jump - it is the amps that kill you though.

 

[Billion003]

At my dealership, the service manager said they could sell more manual transmissions if they were available from VW. He implied the excuse of the lack of demand was not the whole story in their lack of availability.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Hybrid...doesn't that dictate automatic transmission?

Right now, there's a bunch of manual transmission mild diesel hybrids on the market, with more coming out soon (Hyundai/Kia are entering the market with diesel hybrid version of their compact CUVs).
https://www.motor1.com/news/242182/kia-sportage-diesel-mild-hybrid/
I think they are all using the Continental system. Not sure about the Suzuki mild hybrid (gas turbo) cars.

Here's a test drive of a Renault Scenic (Which has been in production with the system with a diesel/manual for some time) and a Golf (Continental tech demonstrator).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC76hK3MrOs

New Audis (A6/A8/A7) come with a Continental 48-V mild hybrid system as standard, however not with a manual.

 

[tikal]

Right now, there's a bunch of manual transmission mild diesel hybrids on the market, with more coming out soon (Hyundai/Kia are entering the market with diesel hybrid version of their compact CUVs).
https://www.motor1.com/news/242182/kia-sportage-diesel-mild-hybrid/
I think they are all using the Continental system. Not sure about the Suzuki mild hybrid (gas turbo) cars.
Here's a test drive of a Renault Scenic (Which has been in production with the system with a diesel/manual for some time) and a Golf (Continental tech demonstrator).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yC76hK3MrOs
New Audis (A6/A8/A7) come with a Continental 48-V mild hybrid system as standard, however not with a manual.

Thanks for sharing. The Kia Sportage is fairly small car or in American terms 'very small car'. A mild hybrid diesel would be ideal in my view in a larger vehicle such as a midsize wagon or a medium size SUV like the Honda CRV, Toyota RAV4, etc.

Of course the chances of a mild hybrid diesel vehicle to come to North America are low at this point.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

Thanks for sharing. The Kia Sportage is fairly small car or in American terms 'very small car'. A mild hybrid diesel would be ideal in my view in a larger vehicle such as a midsize wagon or a medium size SUV like the Honda CRV, Toyota RAV4, etc.

A Sportage is not a very small car, it's a compact CUV, just like a CR-V or RAV4.

https://www.thecarconnection.com/car-compare-results/kia_sportage_2018-vs-toyota_rav4_2018

As you can see, it has pretty much the same interior measurements as a RAV4, some are a few tenths of an inch better in the RAV4, others are better in the Sportage.

 

[atc98002]

I wish I could have gotten a diesel in my new Outback. The 3.6R is a great engine, but under 22 MPG average I could do without. But having EyeSight makes up for it somewhat.