VW planning 117mpg smart killer

[TurbinePower]

The Smart is not necessarily a cheap car itself, and it runs on PUG.

My neighbours across the street have a pug... I just had this mental image of their oldest daughter (not a mental giant by any stretch. Cute, but frightfully dense) trying to stuff the family dog into the filler neck...

 

[shagin'wagen]

My neighbours across the street have a pug... I just had this mental image of their oldest daughter (not a mental giant by any stretch. Cute, but frightfully dense) trying to stuff the family dog into the filler neck...

HAHA!!

 

[CentralFloridaTDIguy]

Romney has right idea..

Well that may well be, but I know this saying: "when you're in a hole, the first thing you need to do is stop digging!"
In this particular case, they need to start offering cars that will actually be bought by the public. They need to do that now, at whatever cost. Without sales there's never going to be a recovery.
And once you lose market share, it's very tough to win it back. Right now, there's no market, everyone's hurting to some degree. But in 2 years, if the public starts feeling better the first thing they'll do is go out to get a new car. What will GM and Ford have to offer?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=2

Let Detroit Go Bankrupt



By MITT ROMNEY
Published: November 18, 2008
Boston
javascript:pop_me_up2('http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/11/19/opinion/19opart.ready.html', '19opart_ready', 'width=496,height=600,scrollbars=yes,toolbars=no,resizable=yes')
Ronald J. Cala II


IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye. It won’t go overnight, but its demise will be virtually guaranteed.

 

[Powder Hound]

I think Mitt is basically right. It remains to be seen whether any sanity returns to the domestic auto industry, or how long it will take.

 

[kooyajerms]

Had a discussion with a friend and I'm going to play devil's advocate. I don't know as much as he does, but I'll throw some things out there that we need to ponder.


Has anyone mentioned Free Trade not being free for Americans? How Japan tariffs American cars to hell and we take in their vehicles? Free trade only works when everyone is playing by the rules, look at Japan, and they sure don't look like they are. If we'd like the companies to come back to being truly profitable, shouldn't we tariff the foreign automakers the same way we did before they flooded our market? Yes I know, less choices, but in the case of what we are talking about, America needs drastic help/sacrifice.



Do you think the Unions would ever allow the Big 3 to run the same way that the foreign automakers run their factories in the US? The Union may not be mafioso anymore, but they still have power over the companies.

Let's see the Big 3 go under and see how they restructure, Unionized or not? I would be surprised to see them running like the "others". Let's hope the market allows for the Big 3 to lose face, remove themselves from the "shelves" and be received with open arms. We are marketing whores, and we all know it. I'm all for restructuring, but it's gotta be done right. Either bail them out with strings attached. Or let them go bankrupt and restructure with Buffet in charge. haha

 

[zanakas]

Has anyone mentioned Free Trade not being free for Americans? How Japan tariffs American cars to hell and we take in their vehicles? Free trade only works when everyone is playing by the rules, look at Japan, and they sure don't look like they are. If we'd like the companies to come back to being truly profitable, shouldn't we tariff the foreign automakers the same way we did before they flooded our market? Yes I know, less choices, but in the case of what we are talking about, America needs drastic help/sacrifice.

This won't do anything to solve domestic carmakers' internal problems...

 

[kooyajerms]

I understand that, I didn't mention the management. That's obvious.

 

[Ray_G]

Devils advocate here. Why is it OK to bail out Freddie and Fannie, pay for people to stay in their house when they bought that house knowing damn good and well they could not afford it, but it is not OK to bail out Detroit?

 

[lbhskier37]

Has anyone mentioned Free Trade not being free for Americans? How Japan tariffs American cars to hell and we take in their vehicles? Free trade only works when everyone is playing by the rules, look at Japan, and they sure don't look like they are. If we'd like the companies to come back to being truly profitable, shouldn't we tariff the foreign automakers the same way we did before they flooded our market?

This is exactly what got us in the mess we are in now. Protectionism by regulations instead of tariffs kept good vehicles out of our country and let the domestic industry get lazy. Only now are the big 2 (Chrysler doesn't count anymore) starting to sell us desirable cars. But it is a couple years too late.

 

[yoseppi]

Wow, I only hope that within 2-3 years this car is a reality for those of us in the USA who really have no real high MPG vehicles available. When I say high mpg, I mean like the european cars get, 70-80mpg not where we have to settle for 45-50 as the best we can buy.

 

[yoseppi]

What's her phone number? IS she single, sounds like my kind of woman.

My neighbours across the street have a pug... I just had this mental image of their oldest daughter (not a mental giant by any stretch. Cute, but frightfully dense) trying to stuff the family dog into the filler neck...

 

[domboy]

Devils advocate here. Why is it OK to bail out Freddie and Fannie, pay for people to stay in their house when they bought that house knowing damn good and well they could not afford it, but it is not OK to bail out Detroit?

That's what I say. Unfortunately we already bailed out the banks, so it really isn't fair to not bail out the automakers. But I don't think the government should be bailing anyone out. There's a thing called personal responsibility, which our society at large seems to be loosing. People and corporations make stupid mistakes, and they should be help accontable for their actions, not be bailed out for it.
Heck, that's what the TDI (including this new 117mpg Smart killer) is all about, having fun in a responsible fashion!!

 

[njkayaker]

Yes, but at twice the price and by using more expensive fuel.

The Smart is not necessarily a cheap car itself, and it runs on PUG.

No, it isn't necessarily cheap. But I didn't say that. It is about 1/2 the price of a Passat (which is what I did say).

http://www.smartusa.com/smart-fortwo-pure.aspx

$11,990 (or $13,990 for the passion)

The recommendation for premium gasoline is a unfortunate but, in NJ at least, "PUG" is still $0.50 cheaper than diesel.

=========================

The Smart car only makes sense (it it makes any sense) as a second car since the fuel ecomomy and the cost do not offset the compromises it entails as an only car.

A 2-door Yaris at about the same price (bit with lower fuel economy) is a much more useful car.

=========================

..to.. pay for people to stay in their house when they bought that house knowing damn good and well they could not afford it

That's nice but that isn't how it happened in many cases.

 

[Ray_G]

Unfortunately we already bailed out the banks, so it really isn't fair to not bail out the automakers. .

The way I understand it we did not really bail anyone out yet. I think the bail out money is being used to buy up banks, not give them money. While I was not for it either, I thought they were going to buy bad mortgages, not buy the lending institution. Personal responsibility is LONG gone in this country. People whining about how the banks took advantage of them by giving them money that they could not afford, just so the CEO's could cook the books and get big ole bonuses. The whole mess disgusts me. The first house I bought you had to have 20 percent down, plus closing costs that the bank could verify. 1 year ago, get a sub prime mortgage for 125 percent of LTV ratio. ***, it is no wonder we are in the mess we are in.

 

[BRUSSELS BELGIAN]

Conspiracy Theory

If you want a conspiracy theory, here it is: we bail out irresposible bankers BECAUSE they are upper class, and in America we worship wealthy people (Max Weber: Protestantism and the Spirit of Capitalism). We will not bail out the automakers PRECISELY because it will be a means of further "disciplining" the working class in this country. Of course, eventually, "spanking" everyone in the country making less than $100,000 will destroy the country, but the folks at the top long since stoped having any real loyalty to the country in a traditional sense (i.e. Wendell Berry traditional agrairian conservatism). Your reading assignment: "The Revolt of the Elites and the Betrayal of Democracy," written by Christopher Lasch while he was dying of cancer. Or perhaps, "After the Empire: the Decline of the American Order," by Emmanuel Todd (who, ironically, wrote a book about the collapse of the Soviet Union). Of course, the problem with these two books for "neo-conservatives" is that neither book comes shrink wrapped WITH A BOX OF CRAYONS!

 

[kooyajerms]

This is exactly what got us in the mess we are in now. Protectionism by regulations instead of tariffs kept good vehicles out of our country and let the domestic industry get lazy. Only now are the big 2 (Chrysler doesn't count anymore) starting to sell us desirable cars. But it is a couple years too late.

It's difficult to blame the failure of the big 3 as only because they don't have market appeal. It is a large portion of their failure but we cannot blame that alone. Talking as someone that lives in America, we must understand that sacrifice is needed (I'm not even American). If we continue to be upside down in our "free trade" then we will have an issue. It can be for a period of time, but to the extent of what it is right now? It's not sustainable. That's why I was suggesting tariffs, because it is not sustainable for us to keep importing for a long period.

So the industry got lazy and produced boring product, not any more inferior to other vehicles right? Other than fuel efficiency issues, American cars don't have a larger fail % vs the foreign market (I don't have that graph that Oilhammer or Dieseldorf had that showed the failure rates/repair rates of auto manufacturers)

Yes they are producing desirable cars now, but it still hasn't created a profitable market for them at this point, right? So desirable cars doesn't seem to be their biggest downfall (it's large). The management/union/healthcare is eating them alive.

Protectionism by regulations instead of tariffs, can you explain that a bit?

Remember, I'm talking out of opinion here, I will not get hurt if you correct me or show me the way.



I'm there with you Ray. Personal responsibility is extremely important.

Jeremy

 

[Ray_G]

Just one thing though, everyone points fingers at the unions. While there is a lot of truth unions being part of the problem believe it or not there are a lot of unions that push their members to produce or leave. I am in the airline industry. I laugh at Clark Howard always bashing unions, and telling everyone how great the Southwest model is. He thinks Southwest is non union. Could not be further from the truth, in fact one of the most heavily unionized airlines. I don't work for them, not even part of this conversation, but I always laugh at things like that. It is not really being "union" it is more what the members and the union and the company and in airlines case the federal government does with it. It can go either way on you.
In the auto makers world, the US auto makers are leaving for other countries to rid themselves of their unions, then there was an article saying that auto makers in the EU were leaving to come here because of their unions. What is going to happen when China enters the auto market? Extremely cheap labor, and a money hungry government strapped for cash that will do anything for US dollars. And Americans will buy their cars because they will be cheap, driving a nail deeper into big 3.....
I am guessing that one reason there are tariffs on our cars in Japan is because we ship our cars to them, made here. The Japanese build their cars here, and sell them here and therefore there are no tariffs.
All this has nothing to do with much of anything, just more observations.

 

[lbhskier37]

Protectionism by regulations instead of tariffs, can you explain that a bit?

Remember, I'm talking out of opinion here, I will not get hurt if you correct me or show me the way.

The current environmental and crash regulations are all about protectionism. Making our crash standards different in the US keeps foreign cars that are just as safe as ours out. Making our environmental laws biased against NOx keeps fuel efficient lean burn gas and diesel engines out. How many Dodge Caravans with their huge gas guzzling V6s would sell in the US if you could go buy a Touran with a TDI using half the fuel. The CAFE loophole for "trucks" lets the big 2 make SUVs that don't count towards it while they forgot to update their car designs. I'm not saying protectionism is the only reason they are where they are, but not forcing them to compete will not help them make desirable products.

 

[kooyajerms]

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[CentralFloridaTDIguy]

UNIONS and Management are the problems...

Devils advocate here. Why is it OK to bail out Freddie and Fannie, pay for people to stay in their house when they bought that house knowing damn good and well they could not afford it, but it is not OK to bail out Detroit?

with the financial industry....being it is service oriented and non-union, it is easier to downsize the workforce and close branches....less physical plant to worry about...


the Fed gov't and State gov'ts have a lot to do with the problems in the financial and auto industries...with the financial, it started with the Community Redevelopment Act back in the late 70's that forced banks to lend to people that couldn't afford to pay back the loans (no down payment, bad credit). with the auto industry, it is with the way that the gov'ts basically gamed and winked on the SUV by letting them get poor mileage and treating them as trucks...also by having different(not necessarily better) safety standards in the US then in other parts of the world....and then by having wacked out environmental regulations that were out of sync with the world....basically, the gov'ts in the US coddled the US automakers to the position that they are in....

I think that what needs to happen is for the UAW to accept renegotiating their contracts(and eliminate clauses that tie the hands of the automakers) to be more in line with the non-union wages of Honda, Nissan, et al in the US.... if they can't do that, then let them go through bankruptcy, negotiate brand new contracts(with no dumb rules about importing cars from same corporation into the US) and start over... I also believe that there needs to be a major re-structuring in the management with definite plans on how they plan to be more viable (make fuel efficient cars like they have in Europe) and equalize the safety and environmental regulations with Europe so that more choice is available in this country. And, being that gov't is at fault in causing a lot of this situation...they need to immediately after the Big 3(2 or 4 depending if you count Chrysler and the UAW) show plans how to make themselves more competitive, should be loaned about 30 billion dollars with low interest rates for at least a 10 year pay back term.

rant done

 

[Ray_G]

With the new administration they won't be able to do either. The new administration won't allow bankruptcy because the courts can change or cancel their contracts. The unions will never forgive the Dems if they let that happen. On the other hand the Dems are not likely change safety standards or definately not change the evironmental ones. (unless they are more restrictive) I am afraid Detroit is doomed. In the end Detroit will come up with some bogus plan to make Pelosi happy, the feds will give them money, they will piss it away on big parties.
In the mean time gas will get cheaper as the economy tanks, and Americans will want their SUV's back. I hate to say this, but most Americans don't want to drive what is available in Europe.
The only hope that I see for Detroit is for the unions to give in a bit. It won't change the regulations they will have to work under though. That is never going to get better.

 

[nicklockard]

with the financial industry....being it is service oriented and non-union, it is easier to downsize the workforce and close branches....less physical plant to worry about...


the Fed gov't and State gov'ts have a lot to do with the problems in the financial and auto industries...with the financial, it started with the Community Redevelopment Act back in the late 70's that forced banks to lend to people that couldn't afford to pay back the loans (no down payment, bad credit). with the auto industry, it is with the way that the gov'ts basically gamed and winked on the SUV by letting them get poor mileage and treating them as trucks...also by having different(not necessarily better) safety standards in the US then in other parts of the world....and then by having wacked out environmental regulations that were out of sync with the world....basically, the gov'ts in the US coddled the US automakers to the position that they are in....

I think that what needs to happen is for the UAW to accept renegotiating their contracts(and eliminate clauses that tie the hands of the automakers) to be more in line with the non-union wages of Honda, Nissan, et al in the US.... if they can't do that, then let them go through bankruptcy, negotiate brand new contracts(with no dumb rules about importing cars from same corporation into the US) and start over... I also believe that there needs to be a major re-structuring in the management with definite plans on how they plan to be more viable (make fuel efficient cars like they have in Europe) and equalize the safety and environmental regulations with Europe so that more choice is available in this country. And, being that gov't is at fault in causing a lot of this situation...they need to immediately after the Big 3(2 or 4 depending if you count Chrysler and the UAW) show plans how to make themselves more competitive, should be loaned about 30 billion dollars with low interest rates for at least a 10 year pay back term.

rant done

Good rant. I think our best bet as tax payers is to hope Congress forces them (any car company with hat in hand) into a structured chapter 11 bankruptcy where the Gov't provides the garuntees and warranties for say....3 years time, provides cash for operations, and negotiates wages and management salaries in open sessions of congress. Imagine how hard it would be for the UAW to make its silly demands on TV in front of the whole world while everyone else is mired in debt and jobless recession! Same for the executives...put their salary and compensation negotiations out in public for all the world to see.

Only public shaming of the highest order will bring these intractable numbskulls to the reality table! I say flog their greed on display for as long as it takes until both sides cave and agree to realistic wages and salary structures. It's retarded that a UAW factory floor worker starting out as a floor sweeper makes $107,000/year...that's over TWICE the median (2 earner) family income in America! Ridiculous!! Shame on UAW and shame on greedy golden parachutist robber barons too.

 

[kooyajerms]

Can you say Scabs?

 

[jvance]

Only public shaming of the highest order will bring these intractable numbskulls to the reality table! I say flog their greed on display for as long as it takes until both sides cave and agree to realistic wages and salary structures. It's retarded that a UAW factory floor worker starting out as a floor sweeper makes $107,000/year...that's over TWICE the median (2 earner) family income in America! Ridiculous!! Shame on UAW and shame on greedy golden parachutist robber barons too.

Except that what you've quoted is a bald-faced lie. The average UAW worker makes $28 an hour.

http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php

Where did that figure ($107,000 for a sweeper) come from?

Why is the figure cited as hourly labor costs by the companies so much higher than the wage rates?


In addition to regular hourly pay, the labor cost figures cited by the companies include other expenses associated with having a person on payroll. This includes overtime, shift premiums and the costs of negotiated benefits such as holidays, vacations, health care, pensions and education and training. It also includes statutory costs, which employers are required to pay by law, such as federal contributions for Social Security and Medicare, and state payments to workers’ compensation and unemployment insurance funds. The highest figures sometimes cited also include the benefit costs of retirees who are no longer on the payroll.

 

[nicklockard]

Except that what you've quoted is a bald-faced lie. The average UAW worker makes $28 an hour.
http://www.uaw.org/barg/07fact/fact02.php
Where did that figure ($107,000 for a sweeper) come from?

You know, I've seen that figure bandied about constantly, but I couldn't tell you the source.

Where can reliable figures be found, and how much is the actual, true competitive disadvantage for American car companies?

Is the UAW a reliable, unbiased source? Ahem* I think maybe not

Let's try to dig up some actual government data or from several unbiased sources...

 

[jvance]

You know, I've seen that figure bandied about constantly, but I couldn't tell you the source.

Where can reliable figures be found, and how much is the actual, true competitive disadvantage for American car companies?

Is the UAW a reliable, unbiased source? Ahem* I think maybe not

Let's try to dig up some actual government data or from several unbiased sources...

Their figures are traceable and auditable. An internet rumor number is not.

How about a GM executive via Forbes?

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/11/19/ap5717126.html

But GM, which negotiated the four-year deal that serves as a template for UAW deals with Chrysler and Ford, says its total hourly labor costs dropped 6 percent this year from pre-contract levels, from $73.26 in 2006 to around $69 per hour. The new cost includes laborers' wages of $29.78 per hour, plus benefits, pensions and the cost of providing health care to more than 432,000 GM retirees, GM spokesman Tony Sapienza said.

Toyota spokesman Mike Goss said the company's total labor costs at its older U.S. plants are around $48, with about $30 per hour in wages.

You've been lied to.

 

[TDIMANtobe]

We'll see though. Will your attitude change when you find out a month or two after the inauguration next January that things didn't change all that much? Or that all problems in the world did not instantly disappear? Or will y'all continue to be the hypocrites that you can't admit to being?

UGH! The Wizard has spoken! if the president elect does not fix in 2 months what the morons f***ed up for 8 years, he is a failure? Another GM board candidate!!

 

[nicklockard]

Their figures are traceable and auditable. An internet rumor number is not.

How about a GM executive via Forbes?

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/ap/2008/11/19/ap5717126.html





You've been lied to.

Okay, by your quoted figures, US automakers employing UAW workers have a slight competitive advantage? How in the hell can they fail so miserably?

Their pension obligations (a form of compensation!!)...the elephant you're not talking about: Big 3 have them, and foreign companies do not. So American car companies are dying because pensions cost many times more than 401K's?

 

[nicklockard]

We'll see though. Will your attitude change when you find out a month or two after the inauguration next January that things didn't change all that much? Or that all problems in the world did not instantly disappear? Or will y'all continue to be the hypocrites that you can't admit to being?

UGH! The Wizard has spoken! if the president elect does not fix in 2 months what the morons f***ed up for 8 years, he is a failure? Another GM board candidate!!

Geniuses, ain't they?

 

[jvance]

Okay, by your quoted figures, US automakers employing UAW workers have a slight competitive advantage? How in the hell can they fail so miserably?

Their pension obligations (a form of compensation!!)...the elephant you're not talking about: Big 3 have them, and foreign companies do not. So American car companies are dying because pensions cost many times more than 401K's?

Pension obligations from being a big, old company, yes. Pension costs that were picked up by US industries early last century to help stave off the lure of Socialism and Government pensions. Costs that their competitors don't have due to Government pensions (or just kicking the workers out onto the street when they're too old to produce). Also, health care costs that foreign competitors don't have due to universal health care.

Of course we could make US auto companies very competitive by paying them the same wages as the VW Puebla workers make - $30 a day. But then, following the domino effect of wage collapse, who would then be able to afford a new car?

But regarding how they could fail, whose fault was it when the Titanic struck the iceberg? The captain or the coal shovelers?