VW No Longer Approves Biodiesel for New Models

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Geordi

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Then why smile about it troll?

There will ALWAYS be water in the combustion process, in gas or diesel engines. Where is this water coming from?
Humidity in the AIR that gets inhaled. Minute amounts of CHEMICALLY BONDED water in the fuel itself, from condensation formed during the transport process to the retailer where the fuel is purchased. This is quite normal, and perfectly harmless.

Gasoline has the same ability to hold water in a bonded state as diesel and biodiesel do. The water separators in diesel vehicles and in most boats, are for FREE WATER that is capable of separation. Free water would enter the combustion chamber by itself, not carried by fuel in a state of chemical bonding, and would not burn. Bonded water is, however, primarially FUEL with a few molecules of water. Burns just fine, and the water is vaporised and either flashes to steam, OR under extreme heat and pressure, might split to oxygen and hydrogen, and burn.

Free water is bad. Bonded water is a fact of life, and while something to try and minimize, you will ALWAYS have some in a commercially delivered fuel. That is a fact of life, there are acceptable margins for contaminants that the fuel companies have to deal with, and so do the carmakers. NO vehicle manufacturer EVER expects the vehicles to run on laboratory-pure fuel, why do you?

--Jim
 
S

SkyPup

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I'm smiling you troll because all water is bad.....especially all the water in all the BD..... /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
 

Light

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uh oh SP, then what are you doing about the 70-100ppm of water in your straight #2? /images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
S

SkyPup

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Smiling from ear to ear, since it is < 1/15th what saturated wet BD contains /images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 

Fubar

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[ QUOTE ]

Skypup wrote:
I'm smiling you troll because all water is bad

[/ QUOTE ]


I guess someone doesn't know about the long-time use of water injection in some over the road diesels to increase power. That must be why they only go, what, a million miles between engine overhauls.
Some big-boy marine diesels also use water injection.
http://www.dieselforum.org/background/marineapplications.html

Muy, muy bad.

Who needs increased power and lowered emissions, anyway?

And, if parts per hundred of water won't harm a running diesel engine, imagine the damage a few parts per million would do!
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
I guess someone doesn't know about the long-time use of water injection in some over the road diesels to increase power. That must be why they only go, what, a million miles between engine overhauls.
Some big-boy marine diesels also use water injection.

[/ QUOTE ]

And where does this water enter the combustion process?

Hint: It doesn't do it with the diesel fuel.

Water injection is a separate process that injects water directly into the cylinders, as in BIG industrial diesels, or it is introduced into the intake air stream.

It is not mixed with the fuel.

Unless you are talking about water-mix fuels like Puranol.
Totally different concept.
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
The centrifuge test is for measuring free water. If it gives you a reading of 300 ppm of free water, and your total water level is 1800 ppm, THAT IS NOT AN ERROR. It is a completely correct reading, as it is measuring free water. The problem is if somebody thinks it's measuring total water - it isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, you hit the nail on the head.
It isn't checking for total water like it should be.

[ QUOTE ]
Incidentally, are you aware that the new European standard (EN 14214) has the same water specification as ASTM D 6751 - 500 ppm of FREE water?

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the standard is 500 mg/kg. It may work out the same but the test that is used for EN14214 is for "water content", i.e. dissolved and suspended water, not just free water. That is why they specify the columetric Karl Fischer test,

And by the way, the EN14214 still has the iodine test (EN 14111) in it. (120 max) So soy biodiesel doesn't qualify. (typically 125 to 135)
And then there's that oxidation test that the ASTM is still working on. (EN 14112)
 

nh mike

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[ QUOTE ]
AutoDiesel said:
[ QUOTE ]
The centrifuge test is for measuring free water. If it gives you a reading of 300 ppm of free water, and your total water level is 1800 ppm, THAT IS NOT AN ERROR. It is a completely correct reading, as it is measuring free water. The problem is if somebody thinks it's measuring total water - it isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, you hit the nail on the head.
It isn't checking for total water like it should be.

[/ QUOTE ]
Read the few dozen posts I've made on the subject again, and then see if you can respond to the actual issue - WHY DO YOU FEEL THEY SHOULD TEST FOR TOTAL WATER?

Dissolved water is effectively chemically bonded in place, and is not going to cause corrosion, reduced lubricity, etc. etc., all the things that free water causes. ASTM limits free water because that is what poses a problem - not dissolved water.

[ QUOTE ]
And by the way, the EN14214 still has the iodine test (EN 14111) in it. (120 max) So soy biodiesel doesn't qualify. (typically 125 to 135)

[/ QUOTE ]
Yup, and as I've explained before, it makes NO sense to have such a restriction. THere are two issues that those who wrote the initial German biodiesel spec claimed for having the iodine spec.

1. A relation between increasing iodine number and increasing cloud point. THe problem is, the relation only exists for each individual feedstock. In other words, if you have two batches of rapeseed methyl ester, the one with the higher iodine value should have the higher cloud point. So, they put the iodine value spec in there as a way of keeping cloud point low. Here's the problem - iodine values and their relation to cloud point do not exist from one feedstock to another. For example, tallow biodiesel has a very low iodine value, but very high cloud point. So, on the basis of cloud point, it makes far more sense to regulate cloud point directly, and not regulate iodine value (which is what ASTM chose to do).

2. The claim that biodiesel will leak into the engine oil, and biodiesels with higher iodine value (which are generally therefore more saturated) will cause engine oil breakdown, and loss of viscosity. No tests have shown that that happens - in fact they've shown the opposite. Take this test for example:
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19960917_gen-159.pdf
In this, and some other similar tests, they actually went ahead and blended the biodiesel fuel with the engine oil (so that the engine oil was 10% biodiesel from the start of the experiment - far far far more than what might actually happen in the real world from fuel leaking into the engine oil). Yet still, there was no clear correlation between iodine value and the viscosity of the oil. They used fuels with iodine values ranging from around 100 to about 180.

Regulating the iodine value is simply stupid. My guess is that companies that grow/process rapeseed had a heavy hand in writing the German/European biodiesel specs, and wanted the iodine spec in there to try to keep other feedstocks from getting much focus. It simply makes no sense to regulate iodine value.
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
Dissolved water is effectively chemically bonded in place, and is not going to cause corrosion, reduced lubricity, etc. etc., all the things that free water causes. ASTM limits free water because that is what poses a problem - not dissolved water.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing the diesel fuel industry doesn't agree with you.

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/lit/tt00-1.pdf
Water in fuel probably causes people the greatest concern, because it is the most common form of diesel fuel contaminant. Water is found in your fuel system in two forms, free and emulsified. Most diesel fuels have some dissolved moisture. Diesel fuel has a saturation level of water at any given temperature. As the temperature goes down, the fuel will hold less dissolved moisture. Dissolved water amounts in fuel are increasing, in part, due to chemical agents used in the catalytic refining process that allows the fuel to hold more dissolved water. At this time, there is no common method to remove dissolved water from fuel. Free water, or non-dissolved water, in the fuel tanks usually comes from the bulk storage tanks, condensation or from dissolved water. Moisture, in the form of humidity, finds its way into your fuel system as air replaces fuel in storage tanks or vehicle tanks at the time of dispersing or receiving fuel. Condensation occurs as hot fuel returning from the injectors flows back into the cooler fuel tank. Dissolved water can turn into free water as the temperature goes down and the saturation level decreases.
Free water in liquid form is heavier than fuel and settles on the slow flow or low areas of your fuel system. As water freezes, things change. Ice is lighter than fuel and floats in your system to plug fuel separators, filters or possibly the fuel pump or injectors.
------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.rxp.com/DieselFuel.htm
Most diesel fuels contain dissolved moisture, but it can only hold in suspension so much before the moisture becomes free and dispersed. In colder temperatures free and dispersed moisture can form ice crystals and plug the fuel filters.
------------------------------------------------------------

And last but not least......

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html

They conducted field trials with biodiesel in collaboration with end-users and found the following injection equipment and engine problems:
*Corrosion of fuel injection equipment components
*Elastomeric seal failures
*Low pressure fuel system blockage
*Fuel injector spray hole blockage
*Increased dilution and polymerisation of engine sump oil
*Pump seizures due to high fuel viscosity at low temperatures
*Increased injection pressure

This is what caused problems:

I'll just list the two that apply to this discussion. i.e. dissolved water.

Dissolved water in biodiesel
Effect: Reversion of biodiesel to fatty acid
Failure Mode: Filter Plugging

And what else do free fatty acids do?

Free fatty acid
Effect: Provides an electrolyte and hastens the corrosion of zinc, Salts of organic acids, Organic compounds formed
Failure Mode: Corrosion of fuel injection equipment, Filter plugging, Sediments on parts
------------------------------------------------------------


Like I said.
Good thing the diesel fuel industry doesn't agree with you. /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
 

AutoDiesel

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[ QUOTE ]
Regulating the iodine value is simply stupid......... It simply makes no sense to regulate iodine value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see what the rest of the world says.............

http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/transport/biodiesel/pubs/shell.pdf
Iodine Value: We would recommend strongly that the European specification be adopted for Iodine Value in the Australian specification. Both the US and Europe have set limits for Iodine Value. We would recommend that the maximum Iodine value should be 120 in line with prEN14214. Iodine value reflects the content of unsaturated acids in FAME and a high iodine value is correlated with poor stability and high tendency for sludge formation.
------------------------------------------------------------

Sludge formation? What's up with that!?!? Really, that is strange.
The stability part, guess that falls in with the testing EN14214 does and ASTM D6751 doesn't.


http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19990902_gen-228.pdf
The evaluation of the engine parts showed considerable differences between the test fuels only on the deposits of the bottom of the 2nd ring groove and in the area between 1st and 2nd piston ring.
A correlation could be found between the increase of the engine oil viscosity and the iodine number.
------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ec.gc.ca/transport/publications/biodiesel/biodiesel4.htm
4.6 Iodine Number
Research at Mercedes-Benz (Shafer, 1994) suggests that biodiesel with iodine number greater than 115 is not acceptable because of excessive carbon deposits.
------------------------------------------------------------

Hint, Mercedes used real engines - not test bench engines.

------------------------------------------------------------

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/99summaries/biodiesel.html
Only the unsaturated fatty acids increase NOx. The NOx increase is higher as levels of polyunsaturation increase. Researchers found that NOx formation was highly correlated with iodine number, density, and cetane number, which in turn are highly correlated with the degree of unsaturation.
------------------------------------------------------------

Higher iodine number, higher NOx output. Oops!

------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/comparison/pubs/2ch5.pdf
The traditional measure of the degree of bonds available for this process is given by the ‘Iodine Value’ (IV) and can be determined by adding iodine to the fat or oil. The amount of iodine in grams absorbed per 100 ml of oil is then the IV. The higher the IV, the more unsaturated (the greater the number of double bonds available) is the oil and the higher the potential to ‘gum up’ when used as a fuel in an engine.
------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.me.iastate.edu/biodiesel/Pages/bio22.html
Unsaturated fuels, such as those made from soybean oil, oxidize readily and have lower cetane numbers.
------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/pdfs/lifecycle_ch6.pdf
6.1.1.8 Oxidative Stability
Oxidative stability is a major industry issue for diesel and biodiesel fuels. Oxidative stability is measured by ASTM D2274. EMA (1995) reported that compared to #2 diesel, biodiesel fuels were far more prone to oxidation. The degree of saturation of the fatty acid chains tends to be correlated with its stability. Oxidation products formed in biodiesel will affect fuel life and contribute to deposit formation in tanks, fuel systems, and filters. Gum number is one of several possible measures of oxidative stability of a fuel, iodine value is another. Fuels with high iodine numbers may possess high gum numbers. Thermal and oxidative instability, and fuel oxidation during storage can lead to deposit formation and other potential engine problems. A recent draft report by Southwest Research Institute prepared for NREL evaluates this complex issue and recommends test methods and levels that correlate fuel oxidative characteristics with engine performance goals. No oxidative stability test method for biodiesel has been established by ASTM .
------------------------------------------------------------

You might not quite be alone in thinking iodine value ratings are stupid.
But you would be in a small minority. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
 

nh mike

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[ QUOTE ]
AutoDiesel said:
[ QUOTE ]
Dissolved water is effectively chemically bonded in place, and is not going to cause corrosion, reduced lubricity, etc. etc., all the things that free water causes. ASTM limits free water because that is what poses a problem - not dissolved water.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing the diesel fuel industry doesn't agree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]
Show me ONE place in any of those things you quoted, or anything else you can find, that disagrees with WHAT I SAID ABOVE. Of course the saturation level varies with temperature. How does pointing that out somehow prove that the diesel industry doesn't agree with me that free water is the problem?

The potential for free water to do damage is entirely AFTER the fuel filter. Fuel tanks are plastic, fuel lines are rubber. After the filter you have the metal components - the injection pump, injection lines, injectors, etc.. Guess what fuel filters also have - that's right, FREE WATER SEPARATORS. They separate out FREE WATER - not dissolved water, FREE WATER. So (now read slowly, this is important) - if you have fuel that has some level of water in it, then it cools down so that its saturation point is below the current level of water - you'll get free water coming out. Guess what happens then when you run the car? That's right - the fuel filter SEPARATES OUT THE FREE WATER. Ever looked at that thing on the bottom of your fuel filter and wondered what it's for?

Those separators very rarely get much water in them. Why? Because there is VERY RARELY any free water.

[ QUOTE ]
This is what caused problems:

I'll just list the two that apply to this discussion. i.e. dissolved water.

Dissolved water in biodiesel
Effect: Reversion of biodiesel to fatty acid
Failure Mode: Filter Plugging

[/ QUOTE ]
Which takes a long time. Yes, if you let your biodiesel sit for several months with high water levels, you'll have problems. Duh.

I especially like how you ignored the part of that link where they discussed all the failures diesel vehicles were having in the '90s when ULSD was first being introduced. Apparently those failures aren't an issue - but if anyone has a problem with biodiesel, it's an unsolvable problem, right? Go buy a dictionary and look up the word "bias".
 

nh mike

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[ QUOTE ]
AutoDiesel said:
Let's see what the rest of the world says.............

http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/transport/biodiesel/pubs/shell.pdf

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, let's see what SHELL the oil company has to say. The opinion of oil companies on biodiesel regulations is the one I value the most. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Heh heh.

[ QUOTE ]
Iodine Value: We would recommend strongly that the European specification be adopted for Iodine Value in the Australian specification. Both the US and Europe have set limits for Iodine Value.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hm, apparently Shell thinks the US does regulate Iodine Value? Apparently the Shell guy who wrote this didn't even bother to read the specs. Interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19990902_gen-228.pdf
The evaluation of the engine parts showed considerable differences between the test fuels only on the deposits of the bottom of the 2nd ring groove and in the area between 1st and 2nd piston ring.
A correlation could be found between the increase of the engine oil viscosity and the iodine number.
------------------------------------------------------------


[/ QUOTE ]
Yup - and this was when they BLENDED THE FUEL DIRECTLY INTO THE OIL. If you fill up your car's oil, and then put in 10% biodiesel, the higher the iodine number means you'll get some deposits. The take-home message? DON'T PUT FUEL IN YOUR ENGINE OIL. The study was done as an extreme case to see if you had MASSIVE fuel leakage (like what you would get over the lifetime of a vehicle that wasn't broken in properly, and had some other problems), what you would see in the way of corrosion of the metal parts. Those deposits came from the fuel that was blended in essentially charring onto the metal parts. In normal usage, you MIGHT see that effect over the lifetime of your vehicle if it has some bad fuel leakage into the oil. That test was not done to see what would happen during normal usage - only a worst case scenario to approximate very long term usage under the worst conditions. How many people do you know that blend fuel into their engine oil?

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ec.gc.ca/transport/publications/biodiesel/biodiesel4.htm
4.6 Iodine Number
Research at Mercedes-Benz (Shafer, 1994) suggests that biodiesel with iodine number greater than 115 is not acceptable because of excessive carbon deposits.
------------------------------------------------------------

Hint, Mercedes used real engines - not test bench engines.

[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO, you don't even know what they used - they don't mention ANYTHING about their tests. And again, as usual, you left out the parts of the reference that don't agree with what you want them to say. Namely, you left out this:
In another study (Prankl and Worgetter, 1996), 5 biodiesel fuels ranging in iodine number from 100 t6 180 were tested in a single cylinder engine for over 250 hours. No significant differences in cleanliness and formation of deposits on cylinder, combustion chamber, valves and injectors were noticed. Based on the test results it was not possible to ascertain the effect of iodine number on deposit formation.

[ QUOTE ]
http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/99summaries/biodiesel.html
Only the unsaturated fatty acids increase NOx. The NOx increase is higher as levels of polyunsaturation increase. Researchers found that NOx formation was highly correlated with iodine number, density, and cetane number, which in turn are highly correlated with the degree of unsaturation.
------------------------------------------------------------

Higher iodine number, higher NOx output. Oops!

[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO - now try searching for the comparisons of the NOx output. The higher iodine number soy biodiesel puts out what, something like 5% more NOx than RME? Considering the NOx adsorbers can remove almost all of it - big deal.

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transport/comparison/pubs/2ch5.pdf
The traditional measure of the degree of bonds available for this process is given by the ‘Iodine Value’ (IV) and can be determined by adding iodine to the fat or oil. The amount of iodine in grams absorbed per 100 ml of oil is then the IV. The higher the IV, the more unsaturated (the greater the number of double bonds available) is the oil and the higher the potential to ‘gum up’ when used as a fuel in an engine.

[/ QUOTE ]
LMAO - They are talking about using straight vegetable oils as fuel, not biodiesel. That's the problem with doing a web search, and then only looking at the parts of a report that say what you want, without reading or considering any other parts of the report - you don't even know what the report is about. Did you even bother to read the next two paragraphs, which would have pointed out to you this problem?

Though some oils have a low IV and are suitable without any further processing other than extraction and filtering, the majority of vegetable and animal oils have an IV which does not permit their use as a neat fuel.

Generally speaking, an IV of less than about 25 is required if the neat oil is to be used in unmodified diesel engines and this severely limited the types of oil that can be used as fuel. Table 1 lists various oils and some of their properties.

They are talking about using straight vegetable oils as fuels - and in those, yup, if you have an IV over 25, it will gum up the fuel system if used directly. Guess what - biodiesel is not the same as vegetable oil. The relation between Iodine Value and "gumming" is not the same for biodiesel and vegetable oil. Rapeseed Methyl ester has an iodine value near 100 - 4 times the limit on SVO's to prevent gumming - so do you now believe that we'd be better off using straight coconut oil instead of even rapeseed biodiesel?

I have more important things to do than continually point out things like this to you.
 

nh mike

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By the way, I could point out to you again the report done by the US Navy comparing the stability of soy biodiesel to their regular petroleum diesel, in which they found the soy biodiesel (with its high Iodine Number) was more stable than the petroleum diesel, and blending the two raised the stability of the blend. But, I've pointed you to that a couple times already, and you apparently never bothered to read it. Besides, the US Navy is probably biased right? Perhaps they're tired of having to fight and die in wars fought over those oil supplies, and want us to develop something else. Clearly a bias - unlike the oil companies that you use as references. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

nh mike

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While you were scouring the web for the few reports that gave a handful of statements that half-agree with you, I wonder how many reports like this one you first came across:
http://www.deh.gov.au/atmosphere/transport/biodiesel/submissions/pubs/aust-farmers-fuel.pdf

[ QUOTE ]

Dissolved water content should not be specified. Biodiesel is hygroscopic, and dissolved water does not present any operability issues.

[/ QUOTE ]
and
[ QUOTE ]
We suggest that Iodine Number not be specified. Specifications for viscosity and cold filter plugging point are sufficient.

[/ QUOTE ]
 

AutoDiesel

Veteran Member
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Location
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[ QUOTE ]
LMAO, you don't even know what they used - they don't mention ANYTHING about their tests.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you want to believe, single cylinder test bench engines or..........

ON ROAD TESTING
Shafer (1994) from Mercedes-Benz Germany, reports on the use of methyl esters of soybean oil, rapeseed oil, and palm oil. The testing was performed in Germany and Malaysia in trucks, busses and industrial engines. Shafer concludes that if the fuel (B100 RME and PME) is of high quality, the fuel injection system can remain unchanged and no excess nozzle coking will be found: too high glyceride content causes nozzle coking. The black smoke emission is reduced by at least 50 percent and the disagreeable odor can be reduced by installing an oxidation catalyst. He also states that engine oil dilution is within relatively tight limits and no sludge is apparent with a suitable lubricating oil.
------------------------------------------------------------

What? They didn't recommend soy!

Yes, I did know what they used.
Sorry about the cached link.
Had a better one but can't find it.

[ QUOTE ]
so do you now believe that we'd be better off using straight coconut oil instead of even rapeseed biodiesel?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to have to start calling you the "twister".
The twister of information that is. Just because I post a listing describing information about iodine values of oils doesn't mean I endorse your twisted view of things.

It's nice that you post the Aussie farm fuel link. It's nice to see that they are dumbing down the specs., even worse than the ASTM specs. They had better listen to Shell. At least they are working with VWAG and know alittle bit more about what "quality" biodiesel is with their lastest EN14214 standards.

That might be moot though.
With VWAG and Shell discarding biodiesel and going for real quality with SynFuel and SunFuel in the future they could probably care less what the Aussie's are doing.
Or Yanks with their wet biodiesel for that matter.
 

nh mike

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[ QUOTE ]
AutoDiesel said:
[ QUOTE ]
LMAO, you don't even know what they used - they don't mention ANYTHING about their tests.

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you want to believe, single cylinder test bench engines or..........

ON ROAD TESTING
Shafer (1994) from Mercedes-Benz Germany, reports on the use of methyl esters of soybean oil, rapeseed oil, and palm oil. The testing was performed in Germany and Malaysia in trucks, busses and industrial engines. Shafer concludes that if the fuel (B100 RME and PME) is of high quality, the fuel injection system can remain unchanged and no excess nozzle coking will be found: too high glyceride content causes nozzle coking. The black smoke emission is reduced by at least 50 percent and the disagreeable odor can be reduced by installing an oxidation catalyst. He also states that engine oil dilution is within relatively tight limits and no sludge is apparent with a suitable lubricating oil.
------------------------------------------------------------

What? They didn't recommend soy!

Yes, I did know what they used.
Sorry about the cached link.
Had a better one but can't find it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Heh heh - that's the best info you can find on the study? It gives NO indication of their actual findings. On that same page, you can read about all the studies done at the University of Idaho and other places that have had NO problems with soy biodiesel. Let's ignore those, eh?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
so do you now believe that we'd be better off using straight coconut oil instead of even rapeseed biodiesel?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to have to start calling you the "twister".
The twister of information that is. Just because I post a listing describing information about iodine values of oils doesn't mean I endorse your twisted view of things.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am the twister of information. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif You are the one citing a study discussing using STRAIGHT VEGETABLE OIL as fuel, taking one paragraph of it and claiming it applies to biodiesel as a fuel. No twisting of information there, eh? Straight vegetable oils with high iodine numbers (above 25 are prone to gumming). The same does not apply to biodiesel.

[ QUOTE ]
It's nice that you post the Aussie farm fuel link. It's nice to see that they are dumbing down the specs., even worse than the ASTM specs. They had better listen to Shell. At least they are working with VWAG and know alittle bit more about what "quality" biodiesel is with their lastest EN14214 standards.

That might be moot though.
With VWAG and Shell discarding biodiesel and going for real quality with SynFuel and SunFuel in the future they could probably care less what the Aussie's are doing.
Or Yanks with their wet biodiesel for that matter.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's amazing that you think the fact that Shell and VW are working together on producing SunFuel has nothing to do with their trying to discredit biodiesel.
 

AutoDiesel

Veteran Member
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Location
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[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am the twister of information. You are the one citing a study discussing using STRAIGHT VEGETABLE OIL as fuel, taking one paragraph of it and claiming it applies to biodiesel as a fuel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, but I'm not the only one.

High Iodine Values

[The information below refers to straight vegetable oil fuel, but is also useful to show which oils are suitable for making biodiesel and which may not be suitable.]
------------------------------------------------------------


[ QUOTE ]
It's amazing that you think the fact that Shell and VW are working together on producing SunFuel has nothing to do with their trying to discredit biodiesel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say discredit.
Distance themselves maybe. Like the biodiesel sensor that will be avalable in the future. It will be a option and not standard so they are leaving up to the individual to make the choice. They will no longer endorse biod for many reasons.
 

goat21

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Location
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Here is the latest on the VW sensors. It appears that high quality fuel must be used for sensors to work.

---- Biodiesel sensor developed by FAL ----

The Federal Agricultural Research Centre (FAL) of Braunschweig,
Germany in cooperation with Volkswagen completed the development of a
fuel sensor, which can differentiate biodiesel from petroleum diesel
in the vehicle's tank. Based on this feedback, the engine control
module can apply an engine calibration appropriate for the respective
fuel blend.

Biodiesel vehicles must maintain the flexibility of fueling with
petroleum diesel and with different biodiesel blends. The application
of a fuel sensor assures that the engine calibration is optimized for
the use of biodiesel in terms of emission reduction and fuel
efficiency. For instance, retarded injection timing can be used with
biodiesel to prevent an increase in NOx emissions.

The sensor utilizes differences in dielectric properties between
biodiesel and petrodiesel. The dielectric constant of biodiesel (which
is composed of polar esters) is about 50% higher than that of
petroleum diesel (composed of non-polar n-, iso-, and cyclic
hydrocarbons, as well as aromatics). In blends, the dielectric
constant shows a nearly linear increase with the increasing biodiesel
content. The sensor also compensates for changes of the signal with
temperature.

Production prototypes of the biodiesel sensor have been developed in
cooperation with Beru AG.

Contact: Prof. Axel Munack, FAL, axel.munack@fal.de

http://www.ufop.de/3037.htm
 

trae

Veteran Member
Joined
May 13, 2002
Location
Chicago Our Fair City
TDI
3 prior TDIs - '97 B4 Passat Sedan, '96 Passat B4 Wagon, 2001 NB; Current - 2013 Audi Q7 TDI Pearl White Metallic - 2014 Moto Guzzi California 1400 Touring - 1995 Moto Guzzi 1100 Sport Carb
Gotta go with Fubar's earlier common-sense arguments and real world experience.

With all the diesels around the world, and all the various biodiesels around the world, why is it VW had 5,000 failures in Germany on biodiesel? I'm not an engineer, but sounds a lot like a design problem, maybe coupled with lousy fuel, to me.

We experimented with a drum of biodiesel last fall; in all proportions it increased smoothness and running B100 was like driving a sewing machine. There were no cool weather problems either, all I added was Power Service, first silver and then blue bottle when it got chilly.

For the past couple of months we have been running Bell Fuels B20 which is available a few miles away. This is not meant to be an endorsmenet, but both cars (B4 Passats) running noticeably smoother than on dino. Also despite all the admonitions about Biodiesel and mileage both are showing BETTER mileage on this fuel.

Obvious that decent fuel, whether dino or bio, makes a difference. And the failures on Biodiesel sound a lot like the design problems auto manufacturers have been having to fix for years.
 

VicTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Location
West Coast, Canada
TDI
2009 Jetta Sport Wagon
[ QUOTE ]
SkyPup said:
That's exactly right AutoDiesel, none of the new high pressure injection systems work with Biodiesel (neither the Pump Duse or the piezoelectric Common Rail). VWAG had to replace 5,000 VW TDI PD engine that destructed this past winter in Germany alone due to the increased viscosity of the BD, this has led to the ban of the use of BioDiesel in all new Audi, VW, and other newer higher pressure common rail systems.
VWAG was amazed that even with the small number of people that ever use Biodiesel, there were so many engine failures in this small population right away. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sysput - what is your source for this info please
 

Sootman

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2003
Location
Maine Coast
TDI
2011 Golf TDI
So maybe someone can explain why VW and Archer, Daniels, Midland are in the throws of developing a plant based fuel in India? I'm easily confused as to why the car runs anyway, let alone on a batch of soybean juice.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
Soyboy, I think the problem is really with the PD cars only. The BD simply gets too viscous for the system when the weather is cold. i believe that's the problem and they are trying to find a solution for it.
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Soyboy, I think the problem is really with the PD cars only. The BD simply gets too viscous for the system when the weather is cold. i believe that's the problem and they are trying to find a solution for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL /images/graemlins/laugh.gif That's what I said, thanks for saying it again though most still cannot understand the utter simplicity of it all /images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SkyPup said:
That's exactly right AutoDiesel, none of the new high pressure injection systems work with Biodiesel (neither the Pump Duse or the piezoelectric Common Rail). VWAG had to replace 5,000 VW TDI PD engine that destructed this past winter in Germany alone due to the increased viscosity of the BD, this has led to the ban of the use of BioDiesel in all new Audi, VW, and other newer higher pressure common rail systems.
VWAG was amazed that even with the small number of people that ever use Biodiesel, there were so many engine failures in this small population right away. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sysput - what is your source for this info please

[/ QUOTE ]

VWAG.
 

dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 11, 2000
Location
MA
TDI
ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
No big deal. It's only to serve as a word of caution for the new PD owners in cold weather climates so those individuals can make an informed decision. /images/graemlins/wink.gif
 

nh mike

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 28, 2002
Location
NH
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS wagon, 2004 Passat GLS wagon
[ QUOTE ]
Soyboy, I think the problem is really with the PD cars only. The BD simply gets too viscous for the system when the weather is cold. i believe that's the problem and they are trying to find a solution for it.

[/ QUOTE ]
The solution is fairly simple - use a blend, and additives. Of course, it would be far easier than that if VW would just equip all TDIs with an electrically heated fuel filter, and preferably also a metal fuel tank (rather than plastic), with a metal heat pad slapped on the bottom (the typical "winterization" package that some pickup trucks use - or at least used to). It would cost probably $50 to make all TDIs that way, and would alleviate ANY problems due to viscosity - could then use B100 with additives, and not even worry about blending.

One of the problems likely in Europe is that in places, especially Germany and Austria, they use a fair amount of tallow and WVO biodiesel, and don't seem to do much winterization. Tallow biodiesel gels around 70F - not good for winter use. Shouldn't surprise anyone that you'd get problems using 100% tallow biodiesel in the winter.
 

nh mike

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 28, 2002
Location
NH
TDI
2003 Jetta GLS wagon, 2004 Passat GLS wagon
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
SkyPup said:
That's exactly right AutoDiesel, none of the new high pressure injection systems work with Biodiesel (neither the Pump Duse or the piezoelectric Common Rail). VWAG had to replace 5,000 VW TDI PD engine that destructed this past winter in Germany alone due to the increased viscosity of the BD, this has led to the ban of the use of BioDiesel in all new Audi, VW, and other newer higher pressure common rail systems.
VWAG was amazed that even with the small number of people that ever use Biodiesel, there were so many engine failures in this small population right away. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sysput - what is your source for this info please

[/ QUOTE ]

VWAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bwaaaaaaaaahahahahaaha!!! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Ah, you gotta love the repeated claim of a magic source for info inside VWAG that nobody else has access to. It's the ultimate trump card - oh wait, or maybe next he can claim that his source of the info is God.... /images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
S

SkyPup

Guest
It is really quite simple, VWAG builds and sells PD-TDIs that don't run for long on BD.

VWAG's CEO statement about the 5,000 BioDiesel destroyed engines and the fact that VWAG no longer supports the use of BD in their PD-TDI at even a 5% level now..... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

They still do support the use of up to a MAXIMUM of 5% BD in the older TDI engines though!!! /images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
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