VW dealership recommending new engine due to camshaft wear. Opinions, please

[Sella Turcica]

Our 05.5 MkV Jetta TDI started making the characteristic "bupping" noise on a trip. Always run with 505.01 oil since new, currently at 145k mi. Anyway, pulled the car over and had it towed to VW dealership here in Raleigh/Durham NC.

Dealer tells me the cam lobes are worn (I expected this to happen one day) and that the "injector seats" are worn "causing it to backfire into the intake". They recommended an entirely new cylinder head, "but with 145k miles on the bottom end, you may run into compression issues so we're recommending a new engine".

They are getting pricing on it for me, but I am getting a second opinion because it sounds like they don't know what they are doing/covering their butts/want to spend a lot of my money. They didn't seem to say anything about bent valves/etc, and the car was driveable. If it really needs a new engine, I am selling this car for scrap or as a fixer upper.

Questions... Does their story make sense? Does anyone know a good independent shop in the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area? Does anyone want a clean TDI with a fubar'ed engine?

 

[whitedog]

They are full of it. The bupping sound is from the worn camshaft only and not the injectors. Also them saying that the lower end is worn out at 145,000 miles is laughable.

You need to find local, quality help and stay away from the dealer that used 5W30 instead of the 5W40 that it needs. Have the timing belt, cam and lifters replaced and do a double oil change to help get the swarf out of the engine.

 

[Sella Turcica]

It was dealer maintained up to 80k miles.... so likely the 5w30 505.01 oil. I switched it to Pentosin HP2 5w40 synthetic (505.01) thereafter and usually run powerservice diesel additive.

 

[nord]

No need to worry about the lower end unless you failed to mention something of importance. The crosshatches will still be looking like new and rings will be fine.

Cam, bearings, and lifters will be the order of the day. If you're worried about the head, then ship it to one of our trusted rebuilders. In the process have them replace the worn components.

Change the timing belt while you're there, along with rollers, water pump, and serpentine belt. Check your alternator clutch just because.

Slap that puppy back together and enjoy a fine car for many more miles.

 

[Sella Turcica]

Good to know. The TB was due in 20k miles so I was planning on having them throw a new one on there early while half the engine is taken apart. As far as I know, the VW dealer didn't mention anything wrong with the lower end, and when I asked if the head was cracked (in response to them wanting to replace it) they said they didn't think so. It didn't overheat (not that the cam has anything to do with that), and it still ran when I had it towed.

Just wondering, do they have to pull the head for the standard cam job?

 

[nord]

Sella,

It isn't necessary to pull the head as long as there's no evidence of other problems. The biggest question in my mind is your dealership. Do you 100% trust them?

All I'm saying is this... Their techs are generally young people. I care not how many certifications they have, my question remains. Are they really qualified to do major surgery on your engine? Will they do it properly without taking shortcuts?

Personally, if I couldn't perform the work myself, I'd take the car to one of the trusted techs listed here on this site. You'll be assured of a good job and a reasonable price. The man you leave your car with will be the man who does the job and hands the car back to you. He'll have his reputation at stake and will take pride in a job well done.

Understand... I have nothing against dealers. Some are very good and have top level techs who take pride in their work. Some. Others try and don't quite hit the mark. Still others see the average VW owner as a cash cow ready to be milked.

The cam replacement project is really no big deal in itself. The "big" comes with the care that the job is done to include precise locking and timing procedures.

Your call of course.

 

[TDI smile]

Is it already so bad? Dealership goes the easy way... lets change the ENGINE.... At least he (you) can't blame us. The Dealership has no trust in their Mechanics, or?!!

 

[whitedog]

I care not how many certifications they have, my question remains. Are they really qualified to do major surgery on your engine? Will they do it properly without taking shortcuts?

To get certifications, you learn things like "clean the gasket material off". But experience teaches you what to use on different metals and different sealers. It teaches you what a clean surface looks like and feels like. It teaches you that getting the job done as fast as possible is the worst way to work.

To me, certifications ain't all that.

 

[Sella Turcica]

Is it already so bad? Dealership goes the easy way... lets change the ENGINE.... At least he (you) can't blame us. The Dealership has no trust in their Mechanics, or?!!

Your comment hits the nail on the head. I don't care to ID which dealer it was because who knows, it's Memorial day and maybe the guys there today are the skeleton crew. Maybe they weren't on their game today. If so, they should have told me to call tomorrow when the big guy was there, ya know?

An independent TDI shop locally sent me an itemized count at roughly $2800 including the timing belt/WP/rollers/single-use bolts, etc. While that's serious cash (and I just did the flywheel at $1500 last year), I spoke with them on the phone and I can tell they know what they are talking about, which is in stark contrast to the dealership.

I have owned a VW for five years and always wondered why people went *facepalm* over the dealer service departments. I finally know why.

 

[nord]

Sella,

Even your independent shop seems a bit proud of their work. A good complete belt kit should run about $350. Maybe a bit more or a bit less. The cam change done in conjunction with the timing kit really doesn't add all that much time to the job and complete cam kits will end up at somewhere around $1k depending upon exactly what you select and where you purchase the components. Actually I think I'm quoting components on the high side if no performance options are selected.

If I add things up correctly it would seem that perhaps between the margin being added to components and labor, you might still be paying the long dollar even at your independent garage. Then again, I look at it from the standpoint of it being my personal car and my ability to do the work myself.

Too bad you're not a bit closer as I'd have you up on our lift and we'd get your car back on the road pretty quickly... And perhaps a bit less expensively than you've been quoted.

Good luck!

 

[Sella Turcica]

Sella,

Even your independent shop seems a bit proud of their work. A good complete belt kit should run about $350. Maybe a bit more or a bit less. The cam change done in conjunction with the timing kit really doesn't add all that much time to the job and complete cam kits will end up at somewhere around $1k depending upon exactly what you select and where you purchase the components. Actually I think I'm quoting components on the high side if no performance options are selected.

If I add things up correctly it would seem that perhaps between the margin being added to components and labor, you might still be paying the long dollar even at your independent garage. Then again, I look at it from the standpoint of it being my personal car and my ability to do the work myself.

Too bad you're not a bit closer as I'd have you up on our lift and we'd get your car back on the road pretty quickly... And perhaps a bit less expensively than you've been quoted.

Good luck!

Thanks for the sentiment. There are a lot of us VW guys out there who care... and I agree with your comment about the price, I called the shop out on the labor being a smidge high. It is probably an overkill job, but I want this car to run for the next 3-4 years. I know what half-assing a job on a car like this can do and I don't want to do that. The parts costs are spot-on.

 

[whitedog]

So is he quoting labor to do the timing belt, then labor to do the camshaft? That would be like charging six hours labor to R&R a clutch then charging 6.5 hours to change the rear main seal. (times are just examples)

 

[Sella Turcica]

9.8 hrs to do the cam, lifters bearings, cam seals, etc etc... plus timing belt, WP, rollers... it seems about an hour too high to me, but I know some shops overestimate by a bit, and the to-do list seemed very comprehensive in the right way. I called them out on one part, but the rest seemed legit enough. FYI for people reading this, I did the head gasket on a BMW a few years back. A hairy enough experience that I am paying someone this time for such a repair, but I can also tell if I'm being completely screwed or not.

 

[nord]

No need for a head gasket as you won't remove the head. And IF you remove the head for whatever reason, then send it out to one of the experts here. It'll come back 100% fresh and ready to install.

 

[GreenLantern_TDI]

+1 for club mechanic. Cant go wrong. Then you just relax and enjoy.

 

[dferdy]

Bad Cam

I would love to do your Cam, Lifters, Bearings along with a new timing belt kit. I am in Atlanta and have a private shop. Just did two cars just like yours. Changed the tranny fluid while I was at it. Didn't take anywhere near 8 hours. Great Job!

 

[Sella Turcica]

I mentioned doing a head gasket on a BMW in the past.. the VW TDI doesn't need a head gasket. I was just saying that I've done one before

 

[1998993C2S]

OP - We recently went down a similar road, the cam/lifter (why not) TB/H2O and a DMF replacement ... $$ yikes. We were at 150,000 miles since new. Going for the long ownership/mileage haul.



dferdy -
We're in nearby Cumming, GA .... I'll PM you.

Mike Schneider

 

[A5INKY]

Not surprised by the dealership diagnosis one bit. My experiences with dealership "service" both prior to and especially after I began Skunkwerx has been really disappointing. I've seen tons of misdiagnosis, repairs to parts/systems that don't exist on the car (yep, saw the invoice from a BEW I fixed that showed the dealer claimed to have previously replaced the fuel rail in the head, LOL) mark & pray TB jobs, reused TTY bolts, over-torqued and broken fasteners, etc. In the end, they rely on some implied trust in that many folks believe that with their ties to the manufacturer, they must be the authority on diagnosis and repair. But I digress...

A couple weeks ago I got a BRM in the shop with the "bupping" and low power. Cam inspection clearly showed #1 exhaust follower holed. Once I removed the cam and remains of the follower, the top of the valve stem was clearly damaged and the head had to be removed:

Point is that not all cam failures are resolved with just a new cam. Whenever a follower develops a hole, I always remove the pan because there is always debris in it, usually trapped in the oil pump pick-up as well. Oil pumps are pretty tough, but it is a good idea to replace it when that happens too. In the case of this damaged valve stem, one should not be tempted to just stick a new follower over it and hope for the best. Might have gotten lucky for a while, but there is not that much material holding the keeper, and if that drops so does the valve and then you have major engine damage. This engine got a rebuilt head and bottom end cleaned out too.

You'll have the best repair experience if you find a competent TDI mechanic you can trust, and then trust him to resolve the issue completely. If something as drastic as rebuilding the head should be required, a good mechanic will be completely transparent and offer to show you the reasons why he is recommending the specific repair.

 

[Sella Turcica]

If something as drastic as rebuilding the head should be required, a good mechanic will be completely transparent and offer to show you the reasons why he is recommending the specific repair.

This is why I went to the dealer this morning, paid for the initial diagnostic fee and got my car back. Had it towed again, to another shop that I already had discussed the problem with extensively.

I had originally towed it to the dealer over the weekend when every place was closed and I didn't have the opportunity to speak with them. I am not in denial of the possibility that it's more than a camshaft, but there has to be a reason. When they couldn't give me a reason, I knew they were clueless and I decided not to let clueless people work on my car.

We'll know in the next day or so what we're up against.

 

[Bob S.]

Good luck with it.

 

[Sella Turcica]

Shop got back in touch with me. I don't need an engine. I need a cam and associated parts. I'm having them do a timing belt/wp/rollers at the same time. A big job, but definitely not a whole engine, geez.

 

[Sella Turcica]

Is there a consensus on how long to run the break-in oil with zinc additive after the camshaft job? I have heard mixed answers on this and don't care to bork my new cam.

 

[Hyde7278]

From Bora Parts

*Put assembly lube on all lobes, lifter faces, distributor gears, bearing journals, lifter barrels and oil pump gears.
*Turn the engine over by hand to make sure that nothing is binding up (e.g. cam bearings are properly seated) and that timing is correct.
*Rev engine to 2000-3000 RPM for 20-30 minutes. Drain break in oil. Refill with break in oil and drive normally for ~500 miles. Drain oil again and refill with 505.01 5W40 oil such as FUCHS, Pentosin HPII or Lubromoly. Adding half to a full bottle of ZDDP additive is a good idea.

They sell joe Gibbs break in oil.

 

[Sella Turcica]

Hyde, thanks for the input.

I had heard the 100-500 mile rules as well, but then I also heard about running the break-in oil for an entire OCI (which technically is 10k mi) without any special procedures.

Simply put, in the absence of clear guidelines I'd change it out early (the break-in oil, not the engine... still LOLing about that).

Oilhammer... are you out there?

 

[James & Son]

From Bora Parts
*Put assembly lube on all lobes, lifter faces, distributor gears, bearing journals, lifter barrels and oil pump gears.
*Turn the engine over by hand to make sure that nothing is binding up (e.g. cam bearings are properly seated) and that timing is correct.
*Rev engine to 2000-3000 RPM for 20-30 minutes. Drain break in oil. Refill with break in oil and drive normally for ~500 miles. Drain oil again and refill with 505.01 5W40 oil such as FUCHS, Pentosin HPII or Lubromoly. Adding half to a full bottle of ZDDP additive is a good idea.
They sell joe Gibbs break in oil.

I would buy Zddplus lobe and lifter grease. Assembly lube or engine oil for injector lobes and injector contact and cam bearings. Check that injector shaft drilled oil port plugs are still pressed in the end of shafts.

As far as the above quote on break in oil. Only if you have a phosphated cam (black parkerizing) is it necessary to dump the breakin oil after your no load break in. The manganese phosphate is abrasive and that is the only reason for the doubling up of break in oil. So if your cam is not phosphated just drive on to the 500 mile mark with one load of break in oil. Do not add more than 2 ounces of Zddplus which will bring a 505.01 oil up to 1400 parts phosphorous. Myself I like Amzoils single 30 wt break in oil, high flash and better film strength than a 5w-30 Joe Gibbs.

Edit: I just saw your post above. Most of the breakin takes place in the 20 minute no load. After 500 miles your break in is complete nad the oil must come out. It does not have the detergents to last very long.

 

[Sella Turcica]

The cam going in is a colt stage II. Not sure if that makes a difference. I think they are just going to use regular oil with the ZDDP additive but I'll ask.

 

[Sella Turcica]

Got my car back. Sounds a lot better than when I dropped it off! Will be changing the oil with additive out this weekend. Hope we get some more good miles out of it.

 

[scdevon]

I'm glad you had a good outcome on this. Knowledge is power.
Your cam is a weak design on an otherwise great engine. Nothing except an xxW-40 top brand synthetic weight oil should be in that engine

The lower end of your engine is barely broken in at that mileage. 500k miles is not unusual for these blocks.

 

[Franko6]

I am glad you got your car repaired. I hope it stays that way...

But this is amusing to me... We had one of the worst experiences with a NC VW stealership. The customer had a damaged valve and cam in a PD cylinder head, so we got the whole head. We repaired and reassembled it, sent it to the VW shop. They claimed (the only ones EVER!) that we didn't surface the head flat and it was leaking from the passenger-rear corner. So, they sent it back for us to 'fix'.

When we got it, we could see that they had needlessly disassembled the cam. When they put it back together, they didn't install the cam seal! That was their 'head gasket leak'. It was a ridiculous waste of time.

Three other VW dealerships were equally incompetent when we sent our kits to them. It is very frustrating. Our experience leads us to direct people away from dealerships. We know many independent shops that are superior in ability, cost and quality.

As for the oil, there is a problem with expecting a synthetic oil with a ZDDP additive to act like an oil designed for break-in. The synthetic oils have additional lubricity and detergents that work against the additives.

Break-in oils, for example, the Joe Gibb's break-in oil we use, are typically a non-synthetic, non-detergent oils with all the additives needed included in the oil. This allows the engine parts to 'hone-in' and also allows the ZDDP,Phosphates, Moly,Magnesium, Calcium (and Lead!) plus several other additives, to soak into the engine parts. Using a synthetic/detergent oil is at cross-purpose to allowing the additives to penetrate into the pores of the engine parts. What is intended to absorb, the detergent in the synthetic oil is removing. The synthetic oils are also a higher lubricity, in many cases, which once again, delays the break-in effect. As the PD cams are particularly noted as a 'fussy cam', we find it very appropriate to use a proper break-in procedure.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/ccrp-1108-camshaft-break-in-guide/