VW Committed to the Cause of Diesel Hybrids?

[booneylander]

If someone built a plug-in and diesel prius drivetrain, then put it in a new A3 quattro I would poop myself from excitement on the way to the showroom.

 

[TDIMeister]

The BMW Vision EfficientDynamics concept was an AWD Diesel hybrid. The i8 that is a further development based on the former will use a gasoline engine, however. I wouldn't care what it burns if it actually achieves the claimed 87 US MPG while being capable of reaching a top speed of 155 MPH and 0-62 MPH in under 5 seconds.

 

[Billion003]

The next-gen Golf and Jetta will be lighter in weight. I assume the Polo will be, too. I'd go for the simplicity of diesel.
There are very interesting thoughts on Lithium by a stock analyst, a Mr. Peterson, on altenergystocks.com

 

[Jeffreyspahn]

If someone built a plug-in and diesel prius drivetrain, then put it in a new A3 quattro I would poop myself from excitement on the way to the showroom.

I'd be right behind you pooping in excitement as well. But I'd have rubber boots on.

 

[TDIMeister]

Audi e-Tron Spyder

 

[RI_TDI]

Did anyone else pick up that the TDI's in these cars are to have two balance shafts? I hope they are a better design than what's in the BHW!

 

[tditom]

The BMW Vision EfficientDynamics concept was an AWD Diesel hybrid...

Even earlier was the X5 diesel hybrid:
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/bmw-x5-vision-diesel-hybrid-concept-auto-shows

I'm hoping the Toyota-BMW agreement to trade diesel and hybrid technologies will bring this (and others) to reality.

 

[bhtooefr]

Given that even later EA188 2.0 PD-TDIs, and the EA189 CR-TDIs, have a gear-driven BSM, I don't think that'll be an issue.

 

[listerone]

At last January's North American Auto Show in Detroit Mercedes featured a diesel hybrid version of it's E Class sedan.It was officially listed as getting 4.2 litres per 100km (highway) which comes out to something like 55mpg.It was also listed as having a total of about 550 ft lbs of torque (diesel+electric motor).I asked a rep and was told it *was* going to be sold in Europe this year but *not* in the US.Although I'm not a fan of hybrids a diesel hybrid featuring that kind of mileage (or better) is something to which I'd give serious thought if it was available here.And that would include a VW model which,I would assume,would achieve better than 55mpg...admittedly with less torque.

 

[chewy]

As I recall, the Jetta hybrid is already on the way to the showroom this Fall.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=354638

I got the Das Auto issue by mail last month. They claimed it was a done deal... will go on sale (but it is a TSI 1.4L Gasser). The hybrid Jetta looks nice, but as I describe in the post above, they claim 45 combined. I get nearly 40 now with a 2 liter CR TDI. 1.6L CR TDI equipped Jetta would do just as well as the hybrid, much less complicated.

Why the heck don't they just equip North American bound Golf, Beetle, Jetta, Golf Variants with a 1.6L diesel. They should bolt right in, and they all ready make them!

The fuel ratings are out for the new Seat Leon (same car as the next MKVII Golf) and there is virtually no difference in fuel economy between the 1.6 and 2.0. In the highly optimistic Euro test the 2.0 is rated at 58.8 mpg and the 1.6 at 61.9 mpg which works out to be 6.7 ounces for every 62 miles.

By the time you get to the EPA test which unlike the Euro test doesn't really penalize power and displacement you could end up with the 1.6 TDI getting rated worse than the 2.0 TDI which would be hard to market. It's also unlikely that the 1.6 TDI is much cheaper than the 2.0 to build. I think most of the pricing differences come from VW Europe wringing out every penny from their customers as they offer a single engine in down rated power ratings and charge an upcharge fee for you to get the full power. (90 hp 1.6 TDI vw. 105 hp 1.6 TDI). This wouldn't really fly here in the states (Audi is doing this with the Q7 though)

In other news, the top of the line 2.0 TDI now makes 184 hp and 280 lb-ft in (presumably) twin turbo version while the "extensively reengineered" regular 2.0 TDI is rated at 150.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

At last January's North American Auto Show in Detroit Mercedes featured a diesel hybrid version of it's E Class sedan.It was officially listed as getting 4.2 litres per 100km (highway) which comes out to something like 55mpg.

It's rated at 4.2 l/100km combined.
It's on the market, the first review I've read of it was a comparison against the same 4-cylinder twin-turbo diesel as a non-hybrid. The hybrid only improves real world fuel economy by 0.2 l/100km, so unless you drive over 400,000 km per year, they couldn't recommend it.

 

[tditom]

It's rated at 4.2 l/100km combined.
It's on the market, the first review I've read of it was a comparison against the same 4-cylinder twin-turbo diesel as a non-hybrid. The hybrid only improves real world fuel economy by 0.2 l/100km, so unless you drive over 400,000 km per year, they couldn't recommend it.

But how do the two vehicles compare with urban driving? That's where the hybrid should have the biggest advantage. If you drive mostly in the city a hybrid might be the best car for you.

 

[German_1er_diesel]

But how do the two vehicles compare with urban driving? That's where the hybrid should have the biggest advantage. If you drive mostly in the city a hybrid might be the best car for you.

In purely urban driving the difference was 0.4 l/100km. About 6% better than the non-hybrid (which also has start/stop).
Acceleration was the same for both, the extra power of the hybrid system exactly cancels out the extra weight.
It's priced about three grand higher than the E250 CDI (which is the most powerful 4-cylinder diesel in the E), and a few thousands below the 6-cylinder diesels.

 

[heidelberger75]

The fuel ratings are out for the new Seat Leon (same car as the next MKVII Golf) and there is virtually no difference in fuel economy between the 1.6 and 2.0. In the highly optimistic Euro test the 2.0 is rated at 58.8 mpg and the 1.6 at 61.9 mpg which works out to be 6.7 ounces for every 62 miles.
By the time you get to the EPA test which unlike the Euro test doesn't really penalize power and displacement you could end up with the 1.6 TDI getting rated worse than the 2.0 TDI which would be hard to market. It's also unlikely that the 1.6 TDI is much cheaper than the 2.0 to build. I think most of the pricing differences come from VW Europe wringing out every penny from their customers as they offer a single engine in down rated power ratings and charge an upcharge fee for you to get the full power. (90 hp 1.6 TDI vw. 105 hp 1.6 TDI). This wouldn't really fly here in the states (Audi is doing this with the Q7 though)
In other news, the top of the line 2.0 TDI now makes 184 hp and 280 lb-ft in (presumably) twin turbo version while the "extensively reengineered" regular 2.0 TDI is rated at 150.

I agree the European fuel economy tests are WILDLY optimistic. However here are some screenshots from a Germany website similar to fuelly where users can track fuel economy, spritmonitor.de.
I ran a search for diesel Golfs for 2010-2011 for both 1.6 and 2.0 TDI.

They range from 5.0-5.4 (47-43mpg) for the 1.6 and 5.6-6.5 (42-36mpg) for the 2.0.

On average the 1.6 would increase mpg by about 5 in real world driving.

 

[wolfskin]

I disagree they are.
I'm consistently getting better FE than the listed figures for my car. I don't use hypermiling techniques.

 

[dubStrom]

I agree the European fuel economy tests are WILDLY optimistic. However here are some screenshots from a Germany website similar to fuelly where users can track fuel economy, spritmonitor.de.
I ran a search for diesel Golfs for 2010-2011 for both 1.6 and 2.0 TDI.
...

...


They range from 5.0-5.4 (47-43mpg) for the 1.6 and 5.6-6.5 (42-36mpg) for the 2.0.

On average the 1.6 would increase mpg by about 5 in real world driving.

Thanks for the research Heidelberger. Average results ALWAYS say more than individual experience. We all drive differently. But the averages make perfect sense. I would certainly buy a 1.6 TDI Polo.

 

[nathaniel]

I like the styling.


I'm happy to see VW venturing down this road. True it's not a diesel but not everyone who wants an efficient car wants a diesel or a Prius. Give em a hybrid VW instead! LOL
online merchant account

 

[TDIMeister]

Records Will Fall: Motor-Trend-Piloted VW Jetta Hybrid Hits 185 MPH at Bonneville

Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/records-w...5-mph-at-bonneville-247889.html#ixzz23oQVprMY
​

 

[bhtooefr]

Odd that they used the electric out of the starting gate.

I'd use the IC engine, and then once the IC engine was about topped out on power, hit the electric to keep the acceleration going.

Unless they weren't allowed to tune to that extent, but it sounds like they were.

 

[El Dobro]

The Toyota hybrids, including their hybrid LeMans car, also use the electric to take off, then the engine to maintain acceleration. Suppose to be more efficient that way.

 

[bhtooefr]

More efficient, yes, which makes sense for the Toyota hybrids.

But, on a land speed record run, you don't want more efficient, you want top speed, which means you want to use your electric power at the end of your run, to increase available horsepower where wind resistance is highest, I'd think.

And, that would mean, target would be to run out of battery at or immediately before the second timing gate, and to start using battery as late as possible to get that target (and use maximum power).

 

[Ski in NC]

That is friggin FAST. What magic are they using?

 

[El Dobro]

Since torque is instantaneous for an electric motor, wouldn't that be better to accelerate from a stop, then have the combustion engine kick in for the balance?

 

[bhtooefr]

El Dobro: If it were a short distance (where rate of acceleration is more important than top speed), and on a high traction surface, then it would've made sense to accelerate from a stop with both electric and IC.

However, Bonneville is a long distance (so rate of acceleration is lower priority) and low traction (so delivering a ton of torque at the start is not only useless, it's counterproductive).

 

[Ski in NC]

You don't get 185mph without gobs of hp. Maybe modded elec plant for high hp and rapid batt discharge?? Curious.

 

[Second Turbo]

Yeah, but it wasn't a Sportwagen

> Motor-Trend-Piloted VW Jetta Hybrid Hits 185 MPH at Bonneville

This was a stunt (not an official record). Just how much of a "rigged" stunt is being hotly debated on various auto fora and blogs. But what I'm wondering is:

What was the point?
Who was the audience, and what was the message?

The recent 1626-miles-on-a-tank Passat run was also a stunt, but one with a real message to a large number of potential customers: ignore the fubar EPA - the Passat TDI can have astonishing real-world fuel economy.

I'm a potential hybrid customer. My focus is on TCO, with a particular driving profile. Right now the TDI owns the job hands-down. But the next car could be a hybrid, if it meets my requirements, which includes things like:

• rational TCO - price may be higher, but must be recovered
• economy: sustained MPG @75MPH better than TDI
• safe merge: 0-60 in under 10 sec (which the Jhy can do)
• endurance: good for 250K life with moderate maintenance
• capacity, comfort, low noise, etc.

So for a 2013 Jetta hybrid, I'd be much more interested in things like:

• record economy
• record electric range

and, of course, can I get it in a wagon

Top speed (above 75) is irrelevant. In fact, I expect the production car would have a limiter that would cut in well below 185

 

[bhtooefr]

The wagon is a rather different model, and there's no signs of them putting it in the wagon.

I'll note that the hybrid will have some aero bits to improve fuel economy - could put those on a TDI sedan, too.

 

[40X40]

Odd that they used the electric out of the starting gate.
I'd use the IC engine, and then once the IC engine was about topped out on power, hit the electric to keep the acceleration going.
Unless they weren't allowed to tune to that extent, but it sounds like they were.

Using the battery 'out of the gate' may have let them run simpler, more efficient mechanical gearing for the IC part of the power train and it may have 'warmed' the batteries so that they could dump stored energy either faster or more completely during the run.

Just guessing.

bill

 

[bhtooefr]

The Jetta hybrid setup in the production cars is:

Engine -> clutch -> electric -> double clutch -> transmission

Maybe they eliminated the first clutch (like the Honda hybrids) or something. Then, the electric would be driving both the wheels and the engine...

 

[TDIMeister]

More efficient, yes, which makes sense for the Toyota hybrids.

But, on a land speed record run, you don't want more efficient, you want top speed, which means you want to use your electric power at the end of your run, to increase available horsepower where wind resistance is highest, I'd think.

The power needed to overcome drag alone (ignoring inertial acceleration) is 0.5*ambient_density*Cd*A*Speed³. I assume ambient density at Bonneville altitude to be around 1 kg/m³ (sea level would be about 1.18 kg/m³) and the Cd*A to be roughly 0.3*2.2 m²=0.66. At 185 MPH, (82.7 m/s), the drag power is then about 187 kW (250 HP). This is NOT the engine power - keep in mind that the powerplant must produce appreciably more than this at the flywheel so to speak to account also for driveline/rolling resistance losses and accelerating the car's own inertia.

Say the car needs 350 HP (261 kW) - however that is split between the combustion engine and electric motor - to reach the terminal velocity of 185 MPH. The energy storage tech, kWh capacity and motor power of this car is unknown, if it even deviates much from the factory specs in this regard (1.1 kWh Li-ion battery and 27 HP motor).

I suspect that the engineering of the car in order to achieve the top speed number is "all-engine" and the electric side of the powertrain is just "there" to be able to put a "Hybrid" sticker on the side of the car and for the notoriety of having broken a speed record for a hybrid car.