Volvo / Audi 5 cyl TDI / Peugeot RWD mixup idea

[christi]

I have a 1976 Peugeot 604 V6 gasser here in the UK.
I love the car but the situation with it has changed.
1. My left knee is now shot. I can only drive manual cars occasionally.
2. The V6 is both juicy and temperamental. This is the PRV engine that caused so many issues in Volvo 260s in the USA.

So this is what I'm thinking.

A Peugeot 505 turbo diesel auto transmission which is the ZF 4HP22 will mate to the 604 torque tube propshaft. I might have to use a 505 manual propshaft or get mine shortened because the ZF 4HP22 is 3" longer than any normal 604 transmission, on the other hand a 505 has a wheelbase 2" shorter so that gets me within 1".

The ZF 4HP22 was also used in the Volvo 740 2.4 diesel. So a volvo bellhousing will fit the Peugeot transmission, I think.....

The volvo of course has a 6 cyl version of a Rabbit 1.6 diesel

So now I have a set up that gets me from Peugeot RWD to VW engine bolt pattern.

Now the 6 million $ question.

Instead of a 6 cyl VW diesel can I bolt in an Audi 100 5 cyl TDI engine instead?

As far as I can tell there is no auto flywheel for that engine, so will a Volvo auto diesel flywheel fit an Audi 5 cyl TDI crank? Will it all mate up to the Volvo bell housing?

Will a volvo flywheel fit the Peugeot torque convertor, or would I be better off with a Volvo diesel torque converter on a diesel transmission?

And lastly, where is the starter motor on a 5 cyl TDI? One problem with RHD 604s is that the power steering rack/column is quite close to the engine. Peugeot actually moved the starter motor to the other side of the V6 engine to make it fit.

I had a quick look at a friends 5 cyl TDI caravelle and the engine does seem remarkably compact.

 

[christi]

No interest yet

I found this thread about a guy putting a 5 cyl TDI into a T3 van.
http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/forum/topic8602&KW=.html

It had this piccy of the bell housing he's using

The starter motor does look like it could be a problem.
I'm hunting the web for pics of Volvo diesel bell housings. Apparently the turbo and the naturally aspirated engines mounted the engines at different angles and so had different bell housings.

 

[christi]

AHA!!

these guys
http://www.d24t.com/showthread.php?t=225&highlight=bell+housing
say that all VW/Audi 5/6 cyl engines have the same bolt pattern
so an Audi 5 cyl TDI engine should actually fit

 

[christi]

As far as I can tell there is no auto flywheel for that engine

I forgot about the T4 Caravelle. There was a variant with engine code AUF that had automatic transmission.
see http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350356306323

Presumably the TDI will have a flywheel timing sensor so a 6 cyl VW/Volvo flywheel isn't going to work. But one of those Caravelle TDI auto ones will if it will mate up to the Peugeot 4HP20 transmission / torque converter.

This is turning into quite a list of rare parts.

Audi 100 TDI engine, ECU and wiring.
Caravelle TDI auto flywheel.
Volvo D24 or D24T bell housing (not sure which would be best)
Peugeot or Volvo diesel torque converter (does it matter?)
Peugeot 505 4HP22 diesel transmission.
Peugeot 505 manual torque tube. (because it's 2" shorter)
Peugeot 604 auto shift lever and trim pieces.

 

[DPM]

Looks like fun.
Other than the torque-tube setup, what's stopping you from putting any other available diesel/ RWD auto tranny in? You cold probably source and install (say) a Mazda RF or an RHZ HDI from a Grand Vitara for less than that list of parts...

 

[compu_85]

Interesting project. Wikipedia says there are only 15 of these cars still registered in the UK, does that seem accurate?

-Jason

 

[christi]

seems about right.
very rare yet worthless

Maybe there are only 15 people in the UK that want to own one?

The torque tube is important, and limits me to the GM 3 speed or the ZF 4HP22 gearboxes, but then both were fitted to quite a lot of cars.

I think that the car deserves more than 4 cylinders. A straight 6 probably won't fit. A V6 would be lovely but I think difficult to engineer, though maybe I shouldn't dismiss it straight away.

I have always liked the 5 cyl TDI. It makes a nice noise, is powerful, economic and a pretty strong engine. It also has (as far as I know) a stand alone ECU that will run the engine without dependances on other parts of the car. Certainly my wife's Audi 80 TDI was quite simple electrically.

 

[tongboy]

what about the even simpler early vw 5cyl IDI engines? they would be vastly simpler to wire into the older body and the mounts should be about the same on the block as the newer TDI motor.

 

[compu_85]

True, but the TDI will have a lot more power.

-J

 

[christi]

To be honest the 5 cyl TDI wiring and electronics doesn't frighten me at all and it's a way more powerful and efficient engine.
With diesel now at over £1.20 a litre in the UK (that's $1.75US) efficiency is important.
The petrol engine is 135bhp and quite good fun. The 5 cyl IDI engine with an auto trans is going to be really slow.

 

[tongboy]

True, but the TDI will have a lot more power.

-J

without question - but in an old car weight isn't nearly as bad as it is in the newer cars.

that and you'd be taking a car from 76 and adding a PILE of new electronics - the engine alone isn't bad but you've got the brake pedal switch, the speedo & tach which unless you pulled it off of a pre-immobilizer one is a PITA, the pedal is electronic only, etc. if he runs a newer tranny he has electronics for that. I'm very comfortable with the electronicse and I still know its a PITA to refit a car that has NO concept of a TDI in its wiring harness, glow plugs, pre-heat, coolant heaters, etc - it's going from very little wiring to a large amount of it.

you can make an IDI 5cyc pretty comfortably fast - not tdi fast but still pretty solid and the engine bay electronics are basically a stop soloenoid and, uh an alternator and starter, oh, and glow plugs.

edit: and you can probably pick up a 5cyl idi from a wrecker for like 300 pounds - whats the 5cyl going to run with all teh electronics? 2k pounds?

 

[christi]

the Audi 100 TDi is pre-immobilizer I think. I don't think the ECU will give a monkey's whether there is a speedo and tach there or not. I don't even think it'll miss the brake pedal switches too much. You're right about the accelerator pedal though.
Basically I would need a complete running car to donate ECU and loom.

 

[MJF]

Audis have ZF4HP18 transmissions. Use diesel torque converter. Or, lowest stall speed you can find.

 

[christi]

Does anyone know what transmission a T4 Caravelle/Transporter automatic would have?

 

[compu_85]

A version of the 01M

-Jason