Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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kydsid

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Besides the fact that VW is basically the entirety of the us passenger car diesel market?
When I lived in Chicago, maybe 15-20% of stations had diesel. I would agree with you there.
In San Jose, I'd say 75% of stations have diesel here--I think you're kidding yourself if you think that a large number of them won't remove the diesel pumps.

Im sorry I meat to say VW is only 80% of the boil. No I dont think any station in any place will notice or care.
 

S2000_guy

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The flip side to that is that it's really going to suck for the dealerships when they have to start taking these cars in.
...
It's a $h1tty situation for everyone. I feel for the dealerships and the employees. As much as I've wanted out of my car for a long time...I'm not going to feel good about taking my car in whenever the time comes.
Good points.

Would you want to run a dealership where potential new customers were in the same general area as a bunch of people turning in their cars? Some of those returning their vehicles would be disgruntled, and some would vocalize their feelings. Or, a potential customer asks a salesman about "those people over there" and he has to explain that VW defrauded them and they're returning their vehicles. I'm thinking it might be smart business to keep the TDI owners as far away from the show room as possible.

I understand wanting a shot at selling a new or used car to those who just returned their car and need a replacement, but I'm not sure that outweighs the potential damage.
 

sriracha

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Aren't there far more diesel passenger trucks in America than diesel passenger cars?
 

ccbsecu

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It's almost even tempting to put back on my defective DPF and crap, get the fix + $5000, take that crap off again, and in the end, that $5K pays for removal/reinstall labor, a new TB and the CP3 pump. Then again, it is a hassle...
So...is the deal:

Fix + $5k or;
Buyback + $5k

??

No $$ if you plan to keep the car and refuse the fix??
 

tvmaster

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I'd like to see an approved fix which includes lifetime warranty on the emission system, and an extended 36,000 miles bumper to bumper.
But that's not likely, is it?
 

jhawklver

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Right, but the EPA wants these off the road ASAP. I don't think they would allow a scheme to exist that would basically encourage people to drive these as long as possible which is what an open 2 years does.
EPA has to understand the time frame and logistics. If they want the cars off the road immediately... how realistic is that? The judge set dates for us to have info to make a rational decision. That date is months away, and we'll have time to analyze decions. And, in the court minutes the lawyers rightfully bring up how fast the process is working, and the judge jokes about how hard they are working.

So in your world at what date are we all out of these cars? Is it a hard date? To think this won't be a long process with some variability/flexibility for consumers is hard to imagine.

I don't think the 2 years thing is certain - but I don't think this is a complete by August or your done situation.
 
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byundt

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Even auto insurers have to agree a buyback will increase TDI values

This all considering that a buyback offer would be transferable via sale. I have a suspicion that VW will offer buybacks to owners that owned the vehicle at the time the scandal made headlines. Those trying to make a quick buck by flipping vehicles may find themselves in a bad situation. As others have mentioned, that was the intention of the goodwill package. To entice owners to report to dealerships with the title, registration, and drivers license so they could record the data mileage/ownershp for future use.

Also, insurance companies are bound by the policies they sell. I will assure you that no insurance company will pay additional monies to a TDI owner in the event of a total loss because of a manufacture fraud case. Most insurance companies do not use KBB, NADA or Edmunds to value vehicles. They use 3rd party companies that do market research on their behalf for a fee.
I didn't state it, but I assume that VW will serve as a buyer of last resort for any and all TDIs from 2009 through 2015. CARB and EPA are pressing VW to either fix the TDIs or get them off the road. For this reason, VW will not care who they buy the car from. It would be nice if they could sell the person another VW, but VW will pay the buyback price to a "flipper" just the same as to a loyal customer.

You stated that insurance companies pay 3rd party market researchers to determine the values of vehicles, and are not going to add anything to those valuations to account for VW fraud. I agree completely. But those 3rd party recommendations have to be data based to withstand scrutiny.

If VW offers to buy any and all TDIs at their pre-scandal price plus an extra cash compensation, then all reported transactions are going to jump to at least the "floor" established by that buyback offer. I would expect auction and used car trade-in prices to rise to at least 95% the VW floor simply because it is so easy for a seller to get 100% of the price by selling the car back to VW.

While the number of private party and used car dealer sales of TDIs to consumers may decrease, I would expect all such sales to be at a premium to the VW floor price. If the seller doesn't get a premium, why go to the trouble of looking for a buyer other than VW? As a result, I expect the more desirable cars to be sold at premium prices justified by their condition & features.

I'm just speculating here, but private party and used car dealer prices are usually a certain percentage range higher than auction prices, but less than new car prices. I imagine that those percentage ranges don't vary too much from one make and model to another, but may change according to the overall price level and type of vehicle. From looking at Edmunds prices on the web, it looks like private party sales prices are 10 to 20% higher than trade-in, and used car dealer prices are 15 to 35% higher than trade-in. I assume that the third-party firms hired by the insurance companies publish similar numbers.

So I agree with your point that third-party firms won't assign any value to VW fraud. But they will report valuations that change when market price levels go up or down. When VW establishes a pricing floor at a level considerably higher than today's FMV, those third-party firms have to increase the valuations they report to their customers, the auto insurers. No matter why the depreciation curve shifts, they have to report reality to their customers.

Since September 2015, the depreciation curve for TDIs shifted down. But when VW starts their buyback offer, the depreciation curve for TDIs will shift up to reflect both pre-scandal prices and the $5000 extra cash compensation.

The insurance industry probably saw a similar artificial increase in used car prices during and after the "Cash for Clunkers" program. The Cash for Clunkers got the worst cars off the road, and the ones that were left all sold for more than the $3500 offered by the government.

I expect auto insurers to settle claims using current market conditions as a basis for totaling out cars. If they had been settling claims using "private party" price levels as reported by their third-party service, I expect insurers to continue using that basis. To do otherwise would leave them open to a class action suit.
 

Vidgamer

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Aren't there far more diesel passenger trucks in America than diesel passenger cars?
I don't think I've ever seen a car being fueled with diesel -- just trucks. And there are a lot of those around. Even larger ones (but not semis of course) fuel at normal pumps, not just pickups.
 

Wileykid

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any idea how long we can delay renewing plates on Ca. before we start getting tickets?
None in California, unless you can show the registration is currently in process, but delayed by the state. You potentially can get a ticket the next day, but unless it is expired for some time, it is really very low on the priority of a traffic cop. Of course that is if you don't attract his attention for something stupid.

Food for thought is with the buyback, will VW require current registration?

Mark
 

bizzle

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I seriously doubt VW is going to offer choices and then wait for you to drive your car for two years while "thinking" about those choices. More likely they will either require you to sign up and wait in line and you'll be contacted within the two years *or* they'll simply recall them in phases, for example, all gen1s and gen2s the first year and fixing gen3s the second year.

The two year timeframe may be the leeway regulators are giving VW to get them off the road in an orderly fashion, not for customers to drive around for another 60K miles.
 

Galo

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My suggestion for buying a GTI would be to swap 18" wheels with 17" (like on tdi golfs) at the time of purchase........

A major gripe with GTIs is how do you manage the potholes (even minor cracks and undulations) with those 18" wheel/low-profile-tires. Those take a lot of beating. Bent rims, scuff prone machine finish, bubbled tires, alignment off is NO FUN at all - just NOT practical in North East and other States where roads are crappy..

If (if if if) it eventually works out for me to take up VW on any good buy-back for my 2010 6-speed sedan, I will go buy four of the cheapest steel wheels I can find, install barely legal tires on them & replace my pristine 17 x 7.5 Goals wrapped in very new Pirelli P7 All Seasons before I take it in.

I will then buy a GTI and replace its 18" wheels on the GTI with the Goals on my car now. For one I really dislike the GTI's wheels and for two, 40-series tires on the street...that's just silly, IMHO
 

austintg

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If (if if if) it eventually works out for me to take up VW on any good buy-back for my 2010 6-speed sedan, I will go buy four of the cheapest steel wheels I can find, install barely legal tires on them & replace my pristine 17 x 7.5 Goals wrapped in very new Pirelli P7 All Seasons before I take it in.

I will then buy a GTI and replace its 18" wheels on the GTI with the Goals on my car now. For one I really dislike the GTI's wheels and for two, 40-series tires on the street...that's just silly, IMHO


I like your thinking. The P7's are some of the best tires I've had yet. 17" is the right size too.
 

Jimmy Coconuts

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I seriously doubt VW is going to offer choices and then wait for you to drive your car for two years while "thinking" about those choices.
Why wouldn't they? They'll be paying the same price for your car regardless of when you turn it in. In fact, the longer you wait, the more money they save in the long run since money depreciates with time.

Two years worth of 2% inflation saves them 4 cents on the dollar if you drive the car another two years. Plus, you figure a certain percentage will be wrecked/totaled and won't need a buyback at all. Hell I'll bet the 2 year decision period was Volkswagen's idea...
 
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Galo

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I like your thinking. The P7's are some of the best tires I've had yet. 17" is the right size too.
Same here. And we could sell the GTI's 18-inchers to a GTI-wannabe owner for easily a grand...:D

My car was worth~$11k before Dieselgate. $11k + $5k = $16k.
Car cost $24k new, so....$8000 over 102k miles is $.077 per mile. I'm not going to include maintenance costs because my better fuel mileage compared to a gasser has mostly offset the additional maintenance costs of the diesel, and I've not had any serious non-covered expense, so....at that cost/mile....yeah...I'ld trade it.

It helps that I'm a financial position where we can, so yeah.

And thank you for your service, too...
 

GTSLOW

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But if VW offers me KBB dealer retail as of 9/15 plus $5k, it's gonna be like an all you can eat buffet of miles that closes in two years. I'd be highly tempted to take VW up on that offer, hang onto the TDI 'til the last possible day, and trade it on a new VW. Or maybe buy it back after they add the SCR system?

But my natural inclination is to run it into the ground, like usual... Still got the 2003 and 1986 VW diesels here.
What a toxic mentality to have. I'd hate to see how you handle other life decisions...
 

pkhoury

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I get high deductables on the collision and comprehensive, and when the car depreciates to less than $10k in value, I drop the C&C completely. I can buy a new car cash if mine is totaled, the C&C coverage would just make the cash flow a little neater as I wouldn't have to sell a bunch of stocks in maybe a down market to buy a replacement car. The odds of my TDI getting totalled in the next two years are on the order of a couple percent, and I can live with that risk. That risk cost is much less than the cost of prematurely replacing my TDI without putting a lot more miles on it.
Your post doesn't make that much sense. And insurance must be sky high in your area. I have $100 comp and collision deductibles on the JSW (saved my ass numerous times) and just $100 comp on the Saab. Amazingly, when I hit a deer in the Saab last year, I got over $3000 in repairs, excluding rentals (through 2 supplements) on a car worth less than $700, without getting a salvage title.
 

pkhoury

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I seriously doubt VW is going to offer choices and then wait for you to drive your car for two years while "thinking" about those choices. More likely they will either require you to sign up and wait in line and you'll be contacted within the two years *or* they'll simply recall them in phases, for example, all gen1s and gen2s the first year and fixing gen3s the second year.

The two year timeframe may be the leeway regulators are giving VW to get them off the road in an orderly fashion, not for customers to drive around for another 60K miles.
It'll be interesting to see, when the paperwork is sent to owners, if there's a checkbox to opt out entirely, for those of us not satisfied with either resolution.
 

slimphatty

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If vw starts buying back tdi's...it'll be such a hard decision to make. I don't even know what I would do. I love the gas mileage I get with my tdi. I just got 470miles to my 11 gallon tank. I'm loving it!! Mickey deez
 
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Redgrom

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This made me laugh. If I responded to all his posts as I'd like...I'd have a lifetime ban. I'm still trying to determine whether it would be worth it....and I'm thinking that yes...it would be worth it.

Come on he's not bad and seams to mean well... Plus I feel like your f*<|< with my grandfather. So many other people here id rather call out.... But maybe I'm just in a good mood after finally getting some info from VW.
 

S2000_guy

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Come on he's not bad and seams to mean well... Plus I feel like your f*<|< with my grandfather. So many other people here id rather call out.... But maybe I'm just in a good mood after finally getting some info from VW.
You got info from VW?

I don't think I know any more now than I did a month ago. All I've heard so far is a few glittering generalities and vague outlines of a proposal. But I've certainly heard nothing that would cause me to take any time to evaluate the proposal, since I have no clue what the proposal is.
 

ATR

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My thought is that the cars that are bought back will be the first car's to see the fix and go through the beta testing of the hardware fix. That way vw has a good idea as to how the fix will work with the older cars.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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So...is the deal:

Fix + $5k or;
Buyback + $5k

??

No $$ if you plan to keep the car and refuse the fix??
From the sounds of it, it's yes to all three of those concepts. However, depending on the news source...the amount of "compensation" $$$$ varies. It's either $1,000 or so coming from a $1B fund or a firm number of $5,000 per "affected" customer.

This is where you have to defer to the judges comment about buyback or fix + generous compensation. By that, I mean that there is no firm/officially released $$$$ figure for the compensation yet. That will likely be established at the late May or late June hearing.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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I seriously doubt VW is going to offer choices and then wait for you to drive your car for two years while "thinking" about those choices. More likely they will either require you to sign up and wait in line and you'll be contacted within the two years *or* they'll simply recall them in phases, for example, all gen1s and gen2s the first year and fixing gen3s the second year.

The two year timeframe may be the leeway regulators are giving VW to get them off the road in an orderly fashion, not for customers to drive around for another 60K miles.
I have the court transcript for 4-21-2016

More ot less that is exactly what the Judge did say ... Owners of affected cars will be given time to make up their mind.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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I have the court transcript for 4-21-2016

More ot less that is exactly what the Judge did say ... Owners of affected cars will be given time to make up their mind.
Yup. It's a win/win for owners and VW. You get the opportunity to (possibly) rack up miles on a car that won't depreciate. The flip side is that if you decide to roll the dice and do that and happen to have something happen to the car in the mean time...you're $h1t outta luck.

I get high deductables on the collision and comprehensive, and when the car depreciates to less than $10k in value, I drop the C&C completely. I can buy a new car cash if mine is totaled, the C&C coverage would just make the cash flow a little neater as I wouldn't have to sell a bunch of stocks in maybe a down market to buy a replacement car. The odds of my TDI getting totalled in the next two years are on the order of a couple percent, and I can live with that risk. That risk cost is much less than the cost of prematurely replacing my TDI without putting a lot more miles on it.
Awesome...you can buy a new car with "cash." As with everyone else on the internets. If what you said above is accurate...then I guess this isn't a huge dilemma for you.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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I seriously doubt VW is going to offer choices and then wait for you to drive your car for two years while "thinking" about those choices. More likely they will either require you to sign up and wait in line and you'll be contacted within the two years *or* they'll simply recall them in phases, for example, all gen1s and gen2s the first year and fixing gen3s the second year.

<snip>.
I have the court transcript

The affected owners will be given time

..... did not see any thing about a limit on time ... all to be decided in the days coming up

To me ... the Judge is going out of his way to protect the owners.

:D
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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Yup. It's a win/win for owners and VW. You get the opportunity to (possibly) rack up miles on a car that won't depreciate. The flip side is that if you decide to roll the dice and do that and happen to have something happen to the car in the mean time...you're $h1t outta luck. .

Morning bubba:)

The script is very short .. fast read .. damn few words .. humorous .. I personally feel relived about fairness for owners ... see light at the end of the tunnel for VW

My take on this hearing is that VW wants and will go forward in US
 
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