Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[wrc777]

but vw remained in the game to make money by hook or crook....
1) toyota, honda, mazda did not bring their diesels to US
2) BMW and MB ensured they complied with US standards
EPA also banned lead as anti-knocking agents, lead based paints, asbestos, high sulfur diesel and the list is unending. Should we go back to using those as well?
EPA has established reasons and publicly accepted plan of action that spans years to reach NAAQS (National Ambient Air Quality Standards). Before the proposed rules are made final, all stake holders have opportunity to voice their concerns and go over available technologies. EPA does take into account stake holders concerns. VW should have voiced during the rule making period, not after it became final and now for years. I want to say we still dont know what vw was thinking and what were all the reasons behind their decision to cheat.
In the mean time, I have no choice but to live with bit higher NOx and CO2 emissions from my tdi. We have no choice and EPA has given that leeway for the time being. I also acknowledge that our tdis are much cleaner compared to many other diesels and gassers out there.
Brief/Crude Summary of EPA's Rulemaking Process:
Actual scientific data is collected linking illnesses and/or other environmental harm and a case is made when its really compelling. In case of IC engines (or RICE: Reciprocating Internal Combustion Engines) emissions limits are set in grams/hp-hr, so it doesn't matter if the engine is 2L, 3L or higher, its per hp of rated engine. There are other criteria as well such as cylinder size, etc. In addition, there are categories: stationary, on-road, marine, emergency, existing, grand fathered, govt. test cells, etc. before they can come up with set limits. EPA has to assign priority levels to all the categories and then settle on set limits. It is an involved process. Also, note that since EPA cannot make changes suddenly, they put out an acceptable phasing plan generally spanning over years. That is how they lowered sulfur in diesel, allowed continued usage of existing engines and slowly made new engines to comply with most stringent limits.....all for the reason to achieve acceptable NAAQS levels by certain future date. And individual states and municipalities have the authority to take a notch up, if they have valid reasons (such as NYC, CA, etc.). Therefore, I would rely on EPA for our environment's protection and allowable emission levels and let them do their work. If you poke your nose in the plans randomly (not that you can anyways) and no matter how small the emissions are in question, you wont make sense.

Lol I have less faith than you in government being competant enough to do this balancing act. More likely those that give bigger donations to the right politicians get easier (read cheaper) to implement regulations than others.

Also passenger cars have emissions regulated in grams per mile not grams per hp-hr. The g/mile limit is set based on vehicle size so a pick up has a different (higher) requirement than a Jetta. 3/4 ton trucks can be certified either way and it is 0.2 g/mile if they use the passenger car method.

I can about guarantee that VW did not use SCRs sooner because they believed the consumer did not want to add urea to the car in addition to diesel. Although the urea doser and tank do add cost, I think the SCR catalyst is cheaper than the NOx adsorber.

I would like to point out that the end customer always pays the full cost for all government taxes and regulations.

 

[pknopp]

I am surprised by the number of TDI owners on this thread who have or speak of changing to a VW gasser. I would be leery to buy any VW at all. Chances are pretty high that there will be no VW in the USA to honor your warranties nor supply parts. There are so many other choices as good or better than VW, why put yourself at such risk?

I'll take that bet. What odds are you offering?

P.S. just finishing doing my own oil and filters to keep the car off VW computers.

 

[TDIintheLOU]

I am surprised by the number of TDI owners on this thread who have or speak of changing to a VW gasser. I would be leery to buy any VW at all. Chances are pretty high that there will be no VW in the USA to honor your warranties nor supply parts. There are so many other choices as good or better than VW, why put yourself at such risk?

Yep. I was on that path until now. It looks like I'm going to dance with the same partner for a while.

All manufactures are having issues. I guess this is a result of building them cheaper and faster. The Yugo may have been ahead of its time.

 

[shovelhd]

Wonder how many VW dealers ship will try to jump ship to another brand. Or add another brand just to stay in Business.

Friend just tried to trade his JSW for a GSW. His car is work $3k less than before the NOX hit the fan. VW only given them $2k play money.

He's so angry that he called the JSW scrap metal...He lost a turbo on it, it was nearly totalled in an accident. But repaired.......and other mechanical issues.

A car with a clean Carfax is worth more than one without.

 

[kjclow]

You are speaking of mergers and acquisitions. I find it unlikely any company will tarnish themselves acquiring nor merging with VW. I'd like to say "you heard it here first", but working on my MBA, there's plenty of talk at UCSB in the finance and business classes and plenty analysis of the economics of VW's coming situation. Future looks grim for VW.

Look at the steps Chrysler went through and are now part of Fiat. Somehow the VW brand will survive and thrive, although that make take years. I think it is more likely that VW will end up picking up another company to balance the losses and build a stronger dealer system. I can see them going after GM or the Chrysler/Ram/Dodge piece from Fiat. I doubt that the EU regulators would let VW acquire Fiat in whole.

 

[oilhammer]

You are speaking of mergers and acquisitions. I find it unlikely any company will tarnish themselves acquiring nor merging with VW. I'd like to say "you heard it here first", but working on my MBA, there's plenty of talk at UCSB in the finance and business classes and plenty analysis of the economics of VW's coming situation. Future looks grim for VW.

Well, stay in school. Again, I'm not worried.

 

[rick_deckard]

Look at the steps Chrysler went through and are now part of Fiat. Somehow the VW brand will survive and thrive, although that make take years. I think it is more likely that VW will end up picking up another company to balance the losses and build a stronger dealer system. I can see them going after GM or the Chrysler/Ram/Dodge piece from Fiat. I doubt that the EU regulators would let VW acquire Fiat in whole.

I could see them selling off some of the luxury brands but really hoping they don't sell Audi - all of the other luxury cars look and drive like carbon copies (to me).

 

[jimbo1mcm]

We might be needing something like this down the road to prevent any unauthorized " flash" of the ECU.
http://locktechinc.com/news/?p=564

 

[romad]

Yea I agree, in traditional casting the metals are melted to liquid form and poured into a mold... sintered metal parts are formed by putting powdered metals into a mold and fusing the powders together with high pressure and heat without actually liquifying the mixture.
My materials engineering degree has finally come in handy here

So does this process result in a "stronger" unit piece than traditional casting? Or is just a cheaper process?

 

[romad]

The recall statements refer to it being a sintered metal part. If you didn't understand what you were reading, wouldn't it be prudent to do some research before playing internet metallurgy expert?

This thread is a ridiculous collection of hysteria, hyperbole, and uneducated nonsense. Thanks for adding to the mess instead of trying to improve upon it.

Yep, you're deliberately being a jerk!

 

[gloaming]

Gassers may now be affected in the ongoing scandal:

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/03/vw-c02-emmission-problems-800000-vehicles?CMP=fb_us

 

[csl223]

So does this process result in a "stronger" unit piece than traditional casting? Or is just a cheaper process?

I believe it makes for a stronger and more uniform piece that should have greater stability (esp. at high heat and under wear-conditions). I would imagine they may also require less machining and post-processing than cast materials. I don't know much since it all really depends on what materials were sintered for what purpose (sintering is used in an endless array of materials). Depending on the alloys they used it could have been for performance as well (making a lighter cam shaft).

That is about the extent of my knowledge. Ever since college my specialty has gotten about as far as it gets from metals.

 

[GoFaster]

Bob Lutz speaks. (I think he's right.)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

 

[turbobrick240]

Well, stay in school. Again, I'm not worried.

Yup, VW's U.S. October sales are up right in the face of this. I'm pretty sure they'll make a full recovery in a year or so.

 

[TCBinaflash]

Bob Lutz speaks. (I think he's right.)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

You will all be nice in this forum. I have all your user names. If you are not nice, I will replace you all.

 

[tsingtao]

Yup, VW's U.S. October sales are up right in the face of this. I'm pretty sure they'll make a full recovery in a year or so.

They are doing great compared to BMW, but compared to everyone else...

• Fiat Chrysler: +15% (+13% expected)
• Nissan: +13% (9.4% expected)
• Ford: +13% (+14% expected)
• GM: +16% (+12% expected)
• Volkswagen: +0.24% (+5.1% expected)
• Honda: +8.6% (+9.1% expected)
• Toyota +13% (+8.5% expected)
• Porsche North America: +11%
• Hyundai North America: +20%
• Mercedes USA: +2.7%
• BMW USA: -6.6%
• Subaru of America: +20%
• Kia America: +12%
• Mazda: +35.4%
• Mitsubishi: +19.8%

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-auto-sales-october-2015-11

 

[bizzle]

Bob Lutz speaks. (I think he's right.)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

He's not right about the other manufacturers' fiascos being any less deliberate.

He seems to be implying that those other issues were the result of mistakes when they were deliberate cost reduction methods and careful analysis of cost:benefit ratios.

Someone sat down and ran the numbers between the costs to ensure the problems wouldn't happen and the probable costs of lawsuits from people being harmed or dying.

It's like this in regards to coal mine accidents, oil drilling accidents, and the list can go on. The problem being the public and the law doesn't recognize those kinds of intentional behaviors in the same light as street crime even though they do far more economic and deadly damage.

 

[Torque17]

you will all be nice in this forum. I have all your user names. If you are not nice, i will replace you all.

lol :d

 

[GoFaster]

You will all be nice in this forum. I have all your user names. If you are not nice, I will replace you all.

Hee hee

 

[haunruh]

Bob Lutz speaks. (I think he's right.)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

So, Mr. Ferdinand Piëch ... aka Colonel Klink??

 

[the beave]

Maybe they should have made the incentive something ridiculous like $5000...then when you show up they tell you well we can't sell you that, that, or that....but hey there is this 2015 Jetta S sitting over here . (On a side note, I'm not knocking the 2.slow, simplicity seems nice.)
Has there been any kind of press release about the 1.8T's? Or has that just been overlooked with everything else going on yesterday?

Ha! That's almost how it went down when Me and the Wife hit the lot on August 15th! They really tried to sell us SOMETHING other than the TDI S.....lol.......: cool:
But we stuck to our guns and got it for $20,254 + tax & license. 0% for 72 months and $1000 VW cash card that we used as a down payment. So I guess by me buying ours, me and the Wife are the guilty ones that brought VW down???

I absolutely dig this car. It IS fun to drive and the difference in styling between the 2014 and my 2015 'mid line upgrade' is pretty stunning. Not knocking the looks of the 2014's at all, but the 2015, for my tastes, hits all the buttons and I've very very happy........

the beave

 

[14tdipassat]

Bob Lutz speaks. (I think he's right.)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

When Bob Lutz says retrofitting urea to LNT cars is basically a nonstarter, I believe retrofitting urea to LNT cars is basically a nonstarter.

 

[ottomatic]

Camshaft
CODE
23R1
PROBLEM DESCRIPTION
Due to high load on the sintered cam which drives the high pressure fuel injection
pump and the vacuum pump in the affected vehicles, the camshaft lobe has the
potential to unexpectedly shear off from the camshaft. If this happens, vacuum
pump power will be lost so that the pump will not deliver further vacuum supply to
the brake booster, and reduced engine power (limp home mode) will cause the
Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) to come on.
Unexpected, increased need for braking effort after vacuum reserve has been
depleted can lead to a crash without warning.
CORRECTIVE ACTION PENDING – REPAIR NOT YET AVAILABLE
PRECAUTIONS
If the Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) is on (or if it comes on) with vehicle in
reduced engine power mode (limp home) with a hard brake pedal during
braking to make an appointment with their authorized Volkswagen dealer to
have the vehicle inspected.

VEHICLE DIAGNOSIS /
INTERIM REPAIRS
The recall repair is not yet available; however customer vehicles that are car-
down due to a diagnosis leading to the necessary replacement of the camshaft can
be addressed with regular service parts.
As with any vehicle issue, dealers should perform a full diagnosis to identify the root
cause of the vehicle concern to ensure that any vehicle needing repair is correctly
and properly addressed. Do not assume that a vehicle has the recall issue – ensure
that a complete vehicle diagnosis is performed.
Affected vehicles diagnosed as needing a camshaft replacement should be repaired
using the existing repair manual instructions. Affected vehicles that are within
warranty at the time of repair can be claimed via the normal warranty process.
Affected vehicles out of warranty at the time of repair should be claimed utilizing
goodwill.
In order to support repairs in critical cases, open a VTA with a copy of the repair
order attached. Approved requests will be sent to the Upper Order Limits team
by the Volkswagen Technical Helpline for processing. Replacement camshafts
are not subject to the recall.

IMPORTANT REMINDER ON VEHICLES AFFECTED BY SAFETY & COMPLIANCE RECALLS
New Vehicles in Dealer Inventory: It is a violation of Federal law for a dealer to deliver a new motor
vehicle or any new or used item of motor vehicle equipment (including a tire) covered by this
notification under a sale or lease until the defect or noncompliance is remedied. By law, dealers must
correct, prior to delivery for sale or lease, any vehicle that fails to comply with an applicable Federal
Motor Vehicle Safety Standard or that contains a defect relating to motor vehicle safety.
Pre-Owned Vehicles in Dealer Inventory: Dealers should not deliver any pre-owned vehicles in their
inventory which are involved in a safety or compliance recall until the defect has been remedied.
Please refer to the attached Campaign Data Sheet and the FAQ for additional information.
If you have any questions or require additional assistance, please contact Warranty. As always, any press inquiries
should be directed to Volkswagen Public Relations.
Volkswagen Customer Protection
Attachment: Campaign Data Sheet / FAQ

<LI class=pageli style="HEIGHT: 955px" data-reactid=".3.2.0.0.$955=19176470588235.0.$row-2">

IMPORTANT! To ensure that ALL of your personnel are aware of this action before receiving questions from any customer, please share this information with ALL personnel
who have campaign-related responsibilities, including service writers, technicians, parts employees, warranty administrators, etc. See the campaign circular on Elsa for the
most current repair information. Refer to the campaign circular for complete repair and claiming instructions.

CAMPAIGN DATA

 

[RBTDI]

I am surprised by the number of TDI owners on this thread who have or speak of changing to a VW gasser. I would be leery to buy any VW at all. Chances are pretty high that there will be no VW in the USA to honor your warranties nor supply parts. There are so many other choices as good or better than VW, why put yourself at such risk?

VW's got too much invested in the Chattanooga plant to exit the US. After this is over there'll still be a market for those who want a German vehicle but can't afford the luxury brands. It's just a question of the model range that VW can market here.

 

[the beave]

Bob Lutz speaks. (I think he's right.)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/

Wasn't 'Bob Lutz' in the band 'Brownsville Station'??
the bea ve

 

[TDI2000Zim]

Rather than blame Volkswagen for every bad thing under the sun, someone better put the EPA under the microscope: http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/4/pebble-mine-rejection-epa-was-riggin-collusion-rep/

 

[romad]

I believe it makes for a stronger and more uniform piece that should have greater stability (esp. at high heat and under wear-conditions). I would imagine they may also require less machining and post-processing than cast materials. I don't know much since it all really depends on what materials were sintered for what purpose (sintering is used in an endless array of materials). Depending on the alloys they used it could have been for performance as well (making a lighter cam shaft).

That is about the extent of my knowledge. Ever since college my specialty has gotten about as far as it gets from metals.

Thank you. I've learned something new. My late brother was a mechanical/aeronautical engineer; he was my main source for engineering and materials info.

 

[ChemMan]

Really? SCR has numerous times been cited to cost $300-400, per car (including C&D's diatribe). That would have made the cars compliant. How is that "handcuffed". This was a play for global number one, at all costs.
While mentioning C&D, does anybody else think it crazy that they imply VW's "accountants" know where breaking even might be? That VW may actually come out ahead, for all the "milions" they saved not using SCR? To me, that sounds like Car & Driver going insane. I don't have to think for a flat second to realize how in the hole VW will be from this. How many originally fitted SCR systems can be bought, for the billions this will cost VW? C'mon C&D.
11mm cars, @$400 each = 4.4 billion saved. This versus lost customer $$? EPA fines? Civil suits? Or, pick a number, for the cars that will cost ~$2,000ea, who will show up for their SCR fabrication odyssey? Car & Driver can give VW all the credit they want. I haven't subscribed for years, but I think VW is bowling for a bit more than 4.4bb.

It wasn't just cost but also desirability and performance. Not to excuse it but just looking at the raw component cost doesn't show the whole picture.

If given the choice would you pick a car without SCR (and never ending refills) which also cost less and had higher performance and higher fuel economy OR a car with SCR (and never ending refills) which costs more and has worse fuel economy and performance?

SCR only works in a narrow temp range. Diesel exhaust is actually cool, to make it hot enough for SCR requires late injection of fuel which reduces power and lowers fuel economy. Throw on top the added cost and the pain of refills and all that combined together means a less attractive vehicle.

The goal was to make VW diesel look better than hybrids and competitor's diesels. Higher cost, more maintenance, lower performance, and lower fuel economy is exactly going to make it stand out from the pack right?

Granted none of this excuses VW and they are rat bastards for screwing us over but hopefully that makes logical sense as to why they did it.

 

[slk23]

When Bob Lutz says retrofitting urea to LNT cars is basically a nonstarter, I believe retrofitting urea to LNT cars is basically a nonstarter.

What Lutz says has been obvious to anyone who's spent some time analyzing the situation.

My prediction/speculation for the gen. 1 LNT cars is VW will come up with an ECU update that mitigates but doesn't completely fix the NOx issue. They'll pay a large fine and the EPA will grandfather in the cars. Hopefully the update won't significantly degrade driveability, efficiency, or longevity.

 

[Lucidexp]

Rather than blame Volkswagen for every bad thing under the sun, someone better put the EPA under the microscope: http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/nov/4/pebble-mine-rejection-epa-was-riggin-collusion-rep/

The EPA didnt find the issue, a school did then reported it. The EPA gives the automobile manufacturers their requirements and test environment so they can maintain all companies are being judged equally. What the school did was test the emissions from the VW's in a non-regulated EPA enviroment (IE real road tests). In the future all cars should be tested in actual road tests not just the standard wind tunnel / dyno testing.