Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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1854sailor

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Would you mind explaining your point how the 7600$ of "depreciation" is not directly releated to and this scandal?
Your car lost 10% of its value when you drove it off the fricking dealer's lot. Grow a set, and wait and see what happens.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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Reuters article today: VW to give amnesty if employees tell what they know about the scandal. Higher level execs not included in plan.( I hope this means they can get fired if they get ratted out by underlings)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/30/volkswagen-emissions-amnesty-idUSL8N12U56H20151030
This does not concern firings (though it could clearly result in some), but ethical expectations of employees at different levels of the organization. i.e. They're saying that executives had an obligation to come forward when they found out (or suspected) wrongdoing. As such, to come forward at this point doesn't say much about their character (the damage is already done).

While they might say that they would have liked junior and mid-level personnel to have come forward earlier...it's reasonable to conclude that these personnel might not have done so, for fear of: 1. Knowing that their immediate leadership was in on it and they didn't how high up it went, and/or 2. Loss of employment and being blacklisted in the industry, or 3. Winding up in a ditch with a bullet in the head.
 

TDIintheLOU

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Your car lost 10% of its value when you drove it off the fricking dealer's lot. Grow a set, and wait and see what happens.
My set is big enough. My 7600$ in loss comes from KBB before and KBB now. Besides I'm not asking anyone to "go fund me". I've been buying and selling cars for 45 years. I think I understand how it works. I'll pass on the Koolaid. Thanks.
 

ras1609

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I'm a newbie here that's late to the party here but have been following along - take it easy on me.
2012 TDI SEL 110K.

3 weeks before this BS came out, needed the following replaced:
Repair #1 - Adblue control module, fluid sensor, Injector and hoses
Repair #2 - (1 week later) NOx sensor

Am I making an incorrect assumption in that I believe I have paid approx $3K for P/L when the parts were effectively doing nothing??
 

Baddawg58

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Virginia
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2015 Jetta SE TDI
Fyi

WASHINGTON -- Volkswagen of America, seeking to contain the damage from its emissions scandal, will offer to buy back some used diesel vehicles from its U.S. dealers at pre-crisis prices, Automotive News has learned.

According to three dealers briefed on the plan, VW will guarantee the value of certified pre-owned and other used VWs with 2.0-liter diesel engines containing the illegal emissions software in dealer inventory, at prices seen before Sept. 18, when the EPA announced VW’s violations. If any of those vehicles stay in dealer inventory for 60 days or longer, VW will offer to buy them back from dealers.

The program will roll out in three phases, according to an Oct. 29 memo to dealers from Volkswagen of America COO Mark McNabb, starting with an inventory of diesel vehicles on dealer lots to help VW determine which ones are eligible for the program. That step is expected to be completed by Nov. 13. VW will detail the next phases of the program over the next two weeks, according to the memo.

The moves seek to establish a pricing floor for used VW diesels whose wholesale prices and auction sales volume have plummeted over the past month. According to Kelley Blue Book, average auction prices of VW diesels were down nearly 16 percent through Oct. 16 compared with levels before the scandal, and auction volumes were down 25 percent.

Offering dealer buybacks also gives retailers certainty that the used diesels on their lots won’t become worthless while they wait for a fix to bring the vehicles into compliance with federal emissions standards. It also will help prevent a glut of used diesels piling up at dealers, who cannot sell the 2.0-liter diesels as certified pre-owned cars but are still accepting customer trade-ins.

Dealers applauded the program, which VW dealer council chairman Alan Brown said was a move encouraged by the council to ease the uncertainty surrounding the value of used VW diesels.

“We felt several weeks ago that we’ve got to control the values, and the only way to do that is for VW to step in and prevent them from going to auction,” said Brown, general manager of Hendrick Volkswagen Frisco in suburban Dallas.

Analysts say some volatility and uncertainty in pricing will continue until it’s known how VW plans to fix the cars, and how those fixes will affect performance and fuel economy.

The buyback program was one of several initiatives announced at VW’s national dealer meeting on Oct. 22 in Orlando, according to dealers who attended.

Among them, VW is crafting a “customer goodwill” program for owners of diesels affected by the scandal, the dealers said. VW executives didn’t disclose what the program would include, but dealers said VW planned to provide details in the first week of November.

A VW spokeswoman declined to comment, saying the meeting was confidential between VW executives and dealers.

Judging by how other manufacturers have responded to similar scandals, it’s likely that the goodwill program will include some form of compensation to owners. For example, Hyundai and Kia gave prepaid gasoline cards to owners in 2012 after the brands overstated the fuel economy ratings on several of their models. In 2013, Ford paid C-Max owners $550 after the company reduced the hybrid car’s fuel economy ratings.

VW told dealers it will provide them another infusion of cash similar to the “discretionary fund” wired to dealers on Oct. 1, though it will be a smaller sum, the dealers at the meeting said.

VW also told dealers that it has secured an immediate production increase of gasoline-powered Jetta, Golf, GTI and Tiguan models to offset the loss of diesel sales, which are still on hold pending EPA certification.

VW said its product pipeline has been unaffected by the emissions scandal, and that major future products including the new midsize crossover, long-wheelbase Tiguan compact crossover and the Subaru-fighting Golf SportWagen Alltrack will launch on-schedule.
 
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They're math is wrong. These cars aren't running around spewing 40X the amounts of NOx 100% of the time. Don't tell me you fell for that **** did you? Sure these cars can pollute 40X the legal amount during very specific times but they're using worse case scenario, ALL the time. Sure sounds like great math and science to me!

Have you read the peer reviewed papers or just the press releases?

What are your qualifications to peer review the papers if, by chance, you have access to them and actually understand them.

The internet seems to make everyone with a keyboard an expert on everything.
 

bubbagumpshrimp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Virginia
TDI
'13 Jetta TDI
I'm a newbie here that's late to the party here but have been following along - take it easy on me.
2012 TDI SEL 110K.

3 weeks before this BS came out, needed the following replaced:
Repair #1 - Adblue control module, fluid sensor, Injector and hoses
Repair #2 - (1 week later) NOx sensor

Am I making an incorrect assumption in that I believe I have paid approx $3K for P/L when the parts were effectively doing nothing??
They were not doing "nothing." However, they were not working to the level that was necessary to keep the emissions gas in question within the allowable limit.

Edit: One hypothetical fix that people on the internets have thrown out there is an ECU reflash that would cause the Adblue use to increase, resulting in the tank needing to be topped off more frequently (i.e. Every 5,000 miles instead of every 10,000). I would imagine (internets conjecture here) that your Adblue system will be part of whatever fix they come up with.
 
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1854sailor

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My set is big enough. My 7600$ in loss comes from KBB before and KBB now. Besides I'm not asking anyone to "go fund me". I've been buying and selling cars for 45 years. I think I understand how it works. I'll pass on the Koolaid. Thanks.
I bought my first car in 1965. Fixed it up and drove it the next year when I turned sixteen. Unless you want to dump your car RIGHT NOW, KBB value means absolutely nothing. Sit tight.
 
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notoveryet

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NJ
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2013 Passat TDI SEL
Your car lost 10% of its value when you drove it off the fricking dealer's lot. Grow a set, and wait and see what happens.
It’s funny how people here keep repeating that a car loses its value when you drive it off the lot. Thank you for that blinding flash of the obvious! I am sure all of us cave people have not already known that.

What we are trying to say is that there is no market for a used TDI right now. I am talking from experience. I've been trying to sell my Passat since the scandal broke on eBay, Craigslist, Cars.com, AutoTrader.com, and multiple VW dealerships in NJ. I have not gotten a single lead and no dealer would take the trade. The only dealer agreed to the trade offered me 11k which is about 10K less than the trade-in value before the scandal.

I can’t believe some people think that is OK. Maybe they are super rich and 10k is not a big deal. Or maybe they drank a ton of VW KoolAid and cannot see things objectively. Well, for me 10K is a lot of money.

I heard it all: don’t sell now; wait; grow a set; values will bounce back; your car will be worth more… All of that sounds like a scene from Boiler Room where Giovanni Ribisi is telling screwed investors to hold the stock for a little longer even though it’s currently tanking. It’s just pathetic.
 

1854sailor

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2015 Golf SE SportWagen, 2015 Golf SE Hatch Back.
This reminds me of a quote from the old TV show "Coach": "Sounds like someone who was abandoned at birth and raised by a pack of therapists"... :eek:

It’s funny how people here keep repeating that a car loses its value when you drive it off the lot. Thank you for that blinding flash of the obvious! I am sure all of us cave people have not already known that.
What we are trying to say is that there is no market for a used TDI right now. I am talking from experience. I've been trying to sell my Passat since the scandal broke on eBay, Craigslist, Cars.com, AutoTrader.com, and multiple VW dealerships in NJ. I have not gotten a single lead and no dealer would take the trade. The only dealer agreed to the trade offered me 11k which is about 10K less than the trade-in value before the scandal.
I can’t believe some people think that is OK. Maybe they are super rich and 10k is not a big deal. Or maybe they drank a ton of VW KoolAid and cannot see things objectively. Well, for me 10K is a lot of money.
I heard it all: don’t sell now; wait; grow a set; values will bounce back; your car will be worth more… All of that sounds like a scene from Boiler Room where Giovanni Ribisi is telling screwed investors to hold the stock for a little longer even though it’s currently tanking. It’s just pathetic.
 

romad

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2005 Jetta GLS Wagon "Cranberry"
Whats with these comments from folks that don't even have affected cars?

I guess it's ok them to have an opinion, however much it doesn't matter.
I believe they are trying to get the hysterical posters to calm down rather then demand they get the full value they paid. They are pointing out that you won't get the price you paid whether it was 6 years or 6 months ago. For example, say you buy a car for $30,000 even on Monday, then on Tuesday a drunk t-bones it and it is declared a total loss. The maximum you'll get is less than $30,000 due to "depreciation". The 10% amount is just a rule of thumb, as the amount of depreciation will vary based on make, model, trim, amenities, etc.
 

n1das

TDIClub Enthusiast, Veteran Member
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2014 BMW 535xd ///M-Sport, 2012 BMW X5 Xdrive35d, former 3x TDI owner
Have you read the peer reviewed papers or just the press releases?

What are your qualifications to peer review the papers if, by chance, you have access to them and actually understand them.

The internet seems to make everyone with a keyboard an expert on everything.
For your reading pleasure....
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/efficiency.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/performance.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2014.html

If I owned one of the affected TDIs right now (I previously owned a 2010 JSW TDI) I would simply KEEP IT and keep on driving it. :cool:
 
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TCBinaflash

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2012 Golf TDI
I believe they are trying to get the hysterical posters to calm down rather then demand they get the full value they paid. They are pointing out that you won't get the price you paid whether it was 6 years or 6 months ago. For example, say you buy a car for $30,000 even on Monday, then on Tuesday a drunk t-bones it and it is declared a total loss. The maximum you'll get is less than $30,000 due to "depreciation". The 10% amount is just a rule of thumb, as the amount of depreciation will vary based on make, model, trim, amenities, etc.
The poster understood that and the guy is still railing him. More or less being a twat. Very uncalled for.
 

MichaelB

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For example, say you buy a car for $30,000 even on Monday, then on Tuesday a drunk t-bones it and it is declared a total loss. The maximum you'll get is less than $30,000 due to "depreciation". The 10% amount is just a rule of thumb, as the amount of depreciation will vary based on make, model, trim, amenities, etc.
That is not true. Depending on the the insurance policy you have. Here is how I know.........I bought a 2009 JSW and owned it for 3 months and my wife was in an accident that totaled the car. The insurance company (Farmers) cut a check for a same model and equipped 2010 including tax and title fees. Just go pick out anther car the same as you had they told me.
 

maybe368

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That is not true. Depending on the the insurance policy you have. Here is how I know.........I bought a 2009 JSW and owned it for 3 months and my wife was in an accident that totaled the car. The insurance company (Farmers) cut a check for a same model and equipped 2010 including tax and title fees. Just go pick out anther car the same as you had they told me.

I also have full replacement value insurance...Mark
 

MichaelB

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You can say that again. I need to read my policy to see if there is some sort of reduced value (caused by this mess) coverage, that would be great...Mark
The problem right now is you can't go back to the dealer and pick out another one because they can't sell you one.:(
 

ericy

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That's my point. The people that did the programming are toast. The people at the top of the food chain that authorized the programming will not be going down for this. i.e. The former CEO. There's no way that he didn't know about this when two of his handpicked people were already suspended over it.
There are a couple of arguments against this however. We already know that Bosch sent a letter to VW back in ~2007 telling them that this software would be illegal in a production vehicle. They can start by looking at the people to whom that memo was addressed, and it isn't going to be a bunch of low-level programmers. Some fairly high executives would be the ones who got that memo.

And the people at the bottom are going to be tempted to sing like a canary. If VW tries to throw them under the bus, they will have no incentive to protect their former bosses..

The German programmers might try and argue that they didn't know the intricacies of U.S. law - knowing that wouldn't be part of their job. I don't know whether that's true or not, but they might argue this to be the case. But there would be people up the chain who *would* have that responsibility.

When you look at their systems there is far more to it than just who checked in the changes. Large companies like this just don't operate with simplistic systems like that. There will also be documents - requirements and specifications in the system - these are also electronic, and depending upon which vendor they have selected to manage this stuff, it will be in some system of some sort that will have timestamps and notes about who made the changes. Those things will have all sorts of nice breadcrumbs for the investigators.

And for that matter, there are the people who made the decision to save a few $$$ and not use SCR right from the start.

It might take a while, but it wouldn't surprise me to see all sorts of people get dragged into this.
 

Phatburner

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Location
Waterloo Ontario
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2013 TDI wagon
When you look at their systems there is far more to it than just who checked in the changes. Large companies like this just don't operate with simplistic systems like that. There will also be documents - requirements and specifications in the system - these are also electronic, and depending upon which vendor they have selected to manage this stuff, it will be in some system of some sort that will have timestamps and notes about who made the changes. Those things will have all sorts of nice breadcrumbs for the investigators.
Germans are notorious for documenting everything.
 

maybe368

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The problem right now is you can't go back to the dealer and pick out another one because they can't sell you one.:(
Yeah, that is kind of an interesting problem that they have with these policies. I was talking to my agent one day and I asked her how the insurance company was going to replace a 1911 Garland gas oven and stove, which is the only one in my kitchen. She said, that is their problem, they have to satisfy me...Mark
 

Philpug

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Gone but not forgotten
What are my choices in trading it in with these values? A gas VW? If I wanted a gasser, I would have bought that in the first place and I wouldn't be in this position. I want a different car, I don't want a VW.
 

waspie

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So if they're propping up cars that sit on the lots for more than 60 days does that sort of sound like VW thinks they're going to be able to start selling these things in the somewhat near future?
 

bubbagumpshrimp

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There are a couple of arguments against this however. We already know that Bosch sent a letter to VW back in ~2007 telling them that this software would be illegal in a production vehicle. They can start by looking at the people to whom that memo was addressed, and it isn't going to be a bunch of low-level programmers. Some fairly high executives would be the ones who got that memo.

And the people at the bottom are going to be tempted to sing like a canary. If VW tries to throw them under the bus, they will have no incentive to protect their former bosses..

The German programmers might try and argue that they didn't know the intricacies of U.S. law - knowing that wouldn't be part of their job. I don't know whether that's true or not, but they might argue this to be the case. But there would be people up the chain who *would* have that responsibility.

When you look at their systems there is far more to it than just who checked in the changes. Large companies like this just don't operate with simplistic systems like that. There will also be documents - requirements and specifications in the system - these are also electronic, and depending upon which vendor they have selected to manage this stuff, it will be in some system of some sort that will have timestamps and notes about who made the changes. Those things will have all sorts of nice breadcrumbs for the investigators.

And for that matter, there are the people who made the decision to save a few $$$ and not use SCR right from the start.

It might take a while, but it wouldn't surprise me to see all sorts of people get dragged into this.
This can be dismissed easily enough. "I received the notification from Bosch in 2007. At that time, I instructed my staff (via email) that the software in question should not be used in production vehicles."

I get that. What I'm saying is that if the decision to do this came from the top...I doubt very much that there would be anything directly linking that individual to it. Most of what you mentioned there are functions that would be delegated to other individuals. Getting people higher up the food chain would necessitate getting those people to roll over on their bosses.

Which...I suppose...might be why that amnesty thing was just released today (concerning employees informing on their bosses). If it does look like higher ranking individuals were involved, but they were lacking proof of their involvement (i.e. No paper trail)...testimony of employees is probably about the only way they're going to get them.

My position assumes that leadership was careful enough to delegate much of these responsibilities. If they were as cocky about this as some people think (i.e. "Let's stick it to the EPA!") and so sure that they'd get away with it...they might just have been careless about it. i.e. Shot emails back and forth . Which plays into the point below...

Germans are notorious for documenting everything.
Yup. They're a meticulous bunch.
 
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TCBinaflash

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Location
Chagrin Falls, OH
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2012 Golf TDI
So if they're propping up cars that sit on the lots for more than 60 days does that sort of sound like VW thinks they're going to be able to start selling these things in the somewhat near future?

Yeah, how in the hell can they sell a car not refitted to meet EPA regs? We know they aren't even going to start refitting these cars until mid next year.

Really doesn't make sense they offer to buyback a car that legally can not be sold by their dealers.

Is this the first shoe to drop that they may do a buy back?
 
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For your reading pleasure....
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/efficiency.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/performance.html
http://webpages.charter.net/lmarz/emissions2014.html

If I owned one of the affected TDIs right now (I previously owned a 2010 JSW TDI) I would simply KEEP IT and keep on driving it. :cool:

An interesting accumulation of information sound bites....Unfortunately, none of it recognises that the TDI is not operating at certification emission levels in the real world because of the illegal software.

I wonder if Oak Ridge, Argonne, et al are recalculating based on the actual emissiod levels of the TDI?
 
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