Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

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turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
Hear hear.

Question on that 'one day/year' comment.
Say I decide to keep my car in the US versus the option of shipping the car ship home to Puerto Rico as I have posted here before.

- I have the (expected) reflash done....hopefully, it's just that for the Gen 1 cars and not the whole urea retrofit thing
- I take it to DMV, car is checked, whatever stickers from the dealer are provided, car is legal, it passes
- I go home and install a Malone tune + DPF/EGR delete kit. Done properly, no codes.
- two years later in 2018, when I go renew tags, what happens?

The car will be plugged into an OBD scanner and it will have no codes. Here in Orygun, that's all that happens...there are no visual/underbody inspections, etc. I will have a 'tune code' -but I will also have whatever 'sticker' certified that the car was fixed sometime in 2016.

Thoughts?
I say go for it. All the johnny come lately, law and order types have a stick up their butt. The car will be more reliable , efficient, and better for the environment without the dpf. Not all laws are sensible and just after all. I assume all the whiney "the law is the law" folks have never exceeded the speed limit etc.. If Oregon requires a visual inspection at some point though, that could be a problem.
 

skigolfmike

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 21, 2013
Location
Ohio
TDI
2015 Jetta TDI DSG SEL
I wouldn't call myself a loyal VW owner. I have owned 4 VWs including my current 2013 Jetta TDi. I always equated VW with German engineering and quality. Unfortunately, this car has been the exception and with the emissions cheat on top of all the other issues I'd had. I think somewhere along the way the culture at VAG changed for the worse.

I had previously owned a 914 (Yes it had a Porsche nameplate, but it was build by VW and had a VW flat 4), an 81 Rabbit and an 83 GTI. The GTI was likely one of the best cars I ever owned. It would run 65 mph all the way to the tunnel in 5th gear when that was something not a lot of cars could do. The car was easy to work on and maintain, it was dead nuts reliable and fun to drive on top of that. At one point I owned 2 cars, the GTI and an Audi 4000 Quatro. I sold the GTI and kept the Audi. That was a mistake.

When my truck died, I bought this car for the performance and fuel mileage. I work 8 hours away from home and the Allegheny mountains are in between. It is nice to be able to pull those hills in 6th gear. Plus the cost for fuel dropped by a 3rd. Performance is not an issue.

Then the fun started. The driver's door lock is intermittent when locking the car and when the auto lock kicks in at 10 mph. it double clicks as it locks and unlocks. Worst of all when you "lock" it and it doesn't lock you can open the drivers door without triggering the alarm even though the alarm is set. It sucks to have to check to see if the door locked every time you walk away from the car. Then the door lock cylinder got to where it would not lock and unlock the door. It's not mechanical, it'a all electric. That was $400+ to replace the lock cylinder and I've been quoted $700+ to replace the door lock actuator. IMHO, this is a huge design flaw. How the heck are you supposed to get in the car if this fails and where is the security if it doesn't lock the doors and arm the system properly. Where is the security in keeping the doors closed in an accident if the doors don't lock.

Next, the exhaust flap died at about 50K miles. You would think this would be covered under the power train warranty as the the exhaust system is part of the motor, hence, part of the power train. At least that is the way I see it. But no, it's not. Another $800.

Lastly, there is an issue with the wiper motor taking a crap. It's loud and it's slow. Likely dying a slow death due to the erector set wiper linkage being made of dissimilar metals that cause the linkage to lockup and burn up the motor, strip the gears, etc. (Another design flaw? Did the engineers fail basic metallurgy?) Anyway, another $250 for the motor, $200 for the linkage and another $200 to install.

So, $2550 in repairs for faulty designs on a car that is only 2 years and 2 months old. What happened to the VW I knew back in the 80s? When did the culture change from producing good designs with good engineering to not standing behind the product, and now this? On top of that all evidence shows that this episode with the emissions cheat is likely a culture issue too. In fact it highlights an internal culture of corruption and dishonesty. My car lost $2-3K in value over night on top of all that. For all the good will VW built with me in the 80s, they just killed it.

Nothing to do in the short term, but ride this out. I was actually thinking of getting an Audi S3 in a year or 2, but now I'm not sure I could even consider buying anything in VAG. All I can say is it's going to take a long time to rebuild the trust VW destroyed.

Yes, I'm pissed.
 

sunrisesurprise

New member
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Location
Arizona
TDI
2010 Jetta Sportwagen TDI
Good Riddance... Now if some other haters and negative nancys would also get the hint and follow him...
Thank you sir/madam :) I knew that jumping on the class action lawsuit wagon was not going to benefit me. No one is working for us, not VW, VWOA, or the dealerships!! If I would have taken my 2010 Jetta Sportwagon TDI into the VW dealership as a trade-in I would have gotten a crap deal!! I was not willing to trade in my TDI because the only choice they are going to give you is to put you into another VW which is total BS!! I wanted to get out from under VW completely. The road ahead for owners of the affected VW's seems bleak at best. I had to take action into my own hands to get something REAL done about it. It was hard work to sell it privately but I definitely gained a better profit than the dealership would have even considered giving me...
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
Discretionary money. It's not for the dealers to spread around, as some (including myself) hypothesized. The manager said that he's using it to help with paying for the $2,000 owner loyalty incentive,advertising costs and paying for rentals for service.
I don't see them voluntarily offering any straight up cash compensation to current owners until they start rolling out the actual fix and see to what extent the negative side effects will be tolerated, or if owners start vehemently protesting in large numbers.

If they do, obviously VW will have to fund that as a separate program.
 

turbobrick240

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Location
maine
TDI
2011 vw golf tdi(gone to greener pastures), 2001 ford f250 powerstroke
I wouldn't call myself a loyal VW owner. I have owned 4 VWs including my current 2013 Jetta TDi. I always equated VW with German engineering and quality. Unfortunately, this car has been the exception and with the emissions cheat on top of all the other issues I'd had. I think somewhere along the way the culture at VAG changed for the worse.

I had previously owned a 914 (Yes it had a Porsche nameplate, but it was build by VW and had a VW flat 4), an 81 Rabbit and an 83 GTI. The GTI was likely one of the best cars I ever owned. It would run 65 mph all the way to the tunnel in 5th gear when that was something not a lot of cars could do. The car was easy to work on and maintain, it was dead nuts reliable and fun to drive on top of that. At one point I owned 2 cars, the GTI and an Audi 4000 Quatro. I sold the GTI and kept the Audi. That was a mistake.

When my truck died, I bought this car for the performance and fuel mileage. I work 8 hours away from home and the Allegheny mountains are in between. It is nice to be able to pull those hills in 6th gear. Plus the cost for fuel dropped by a 3rd. Performance is not an issue.

Then the fun started. The driver's door lock is intermittent when locking the car and when the auto lock kicks in at 10 mph. it double clicks as it locks and unlocks. Worst of all when you "lock" it and it doesn't lock you can open the drivers door without triggering the alarm even though the alarm is set. It sucks to have to check to see if the door locked every time you walk away from the car. Then the door lock cylinder got to where it would not lock and unlock the door. It's not mechanical, it'a all electric. That was $400+ to replace the lock cylinder and I've been quoted $700+ to replace the door lock actuator. IMHO, this is a huge design flaw. How the heck are you supposed to get in the car if this fails and where is the security if it doesn't lock the doors and arm the system properly. Where is the security in keeping the doors closed in an accident if the doors don't lock.

Next, the exhaust flap died at about 50K miles. You would think this would be covered under the power train warranty as the the exhaust system is part of the motor, hence, part of the power train. At least that is the way I see it. But no, it's not. Another $800.

Lastly, there is an issue with the wiper motor taking a crap. It's loud and it's slow. Likely dying a slow death due to the erector set wiper linkage being made of dissimilar metals that cause the linkage to lockup and burn up the motor, strip the gears, etc. (Another design flaw? Did the engineers fail basic metallurgy?) Anyway, another $250 for the motor, $200 for the linkage and another $200 to install.

So, $2550 in repairs for faulty designs on a car that is only 2 years and 2 months old. What happened to the VW I knew back in the 80s? When did the culture change from producing good designs with good engineering to not standing behind the product, and now this? On top of that all evidence shows that this episode with the emissions cheat is likely a culture issue too. In fact it highlights an internal culture of corruption and dishonesty. My car lost $2-3K in value over night on top of all that. For all the good will VW built with me in the 80s, they just killed it.

Nothing to do in the short term, but ride this out. I was actually thinking of getting an Audi S3 in a year or 2, but now I'm not sure I could even consider buying anything in VAG. All I can say is it's going to take a long time to rebuild the trust VW destroyed.

Yes, I'm pissed.
It's always upsetting when I hear of people having so many problems with their cars. A few thoughts: the exhaust flap is covered by the federal emissions warranty to 120k miles. You got screwed if you paid out of pocket. You should be able to get that money back. Second, pulling hills in 6th gear is generally a terrible idea. Lugging down a diesel is probably the worst thing you can do. Good luck, you should get reimbursed for the exhaust flapper.
 

hybridkiller

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Location
Southeastern US
TDI
2012 Golf DSG
All I can say is it's going to take a long time to rebuild the trust VW destroyed.
I agree with your sentiment, but the general public collectively have pretty short memories. The only people who will still be talking about this in 2-3 years are the internet VW hate squad, who are no doubt giddy with delight over this.
 

Philpug

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
Location
Reno, NV
TDI
Gone but not forgotten
This just hit me..VW didn't lie once..they did this THREE times. We are talking doing it to get THREE different motors to pass.
 
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Jack-DE

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
East Coast, USA
TDI
Mk6 Golf TDI (gone)
I got what I think what a fair trade-in offer. '13 Jetta Premium, manual, 34k miles, and needs tires. $14,500. That tells me that if I really wanted to unload it now...I could probably get a decent amount via private sale.
That's much better what I got. 2013 Golf TDI DSG 4dr Sunroof/Navigation and only 25K miles. They offered me $13,000 as trade in :mad:

Decided to keep the car for now. FWIW, I debadged the car. No need to advertise that I am driving a "clean diesel" TDI.
 
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Rockwater

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2009
Location
Denver, Colorado
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI Sportwagen, manual
You have to work pretty hard to reach the top tier 4. So Cal Edison Tier 1 is only 12 cents. EV owners charge at night at .09 per KWh, so by your calculation, they pay $.80 per 25 miles. I have solar on my roof, already paid for itself after 4 years, so actually, I pay $0.00 to drive 25 miles, I pay $0.0 to drive 2,500 miles. Yep, I think I'll keep my electric car. And as soon as I see what VW will do on my son's TDI, or the Tesla 3 comes out first, we'll be selling the TDI. It will be replaced by Leaf2, Chevy Bolt BEV, or Telsa Model 3.
This is probably not the right place but please breakdown your calculations on the solar system and EV mileage calculations factoring in EV battery costs. They don't sound very realistic.
 

XJTdi

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Location
Placerville, California
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG
I asked a guy in the service dept, who was a mechanic there as well, how long he thought a retrofit, pull a rusty exhaust, and prob the adjoining pieces as they will be bad. pull the LH side of the interior and trunk, to run the wiring, get that laid out and spliced into the harness and into the ecm and fuse panel,where there is no relay space now,if needed. replace any broken sills etc as the clips never go back in . and install the tank etc.. he said couple days easy, so that half day or so , is now 300% more in labor costs..an 09 TDI Jetta is about $8000 here. figure a $3500 hit, on the recall, and the car will be worth $6,000 in 2 yrs when they get too it..
That will be when some sort of buyout coupled with a serious discounts might make some sense.

I received the email for the 2k loyalty money last week. A couple of days ago I received an email from my dealer advertising fall specials including $1 over cost on tires and another coupon for 15% off of other services.

The car was defiantly needing tires before winter gets going so I called the service rep I deal with and he said "yes, I can take care of it for you. We are slow today so just come on down." So while we were waiting for them to do there magic to the car, the better half and I proceeded to walk around the lot and look at the other models. A salesmen approached us and after finding out that we had a TDI apologized to us for not being able to take them on trade at this time. He was most helpful and showed us all of the different models on the lot. She sat in all of them and it was a very pleasant experience.

What gets me is the deals they have at this time. A yearend CC is discounted 7k with the 2k brings it down to 25k to start. A Passat Limited Edition was 25.5k with 5.5k and the 2k makes it 18k. If they were to provide a generous trade and similar deals next year when they have a fix for the early gen1's I would seriously have to think about trading up. Maybe the reworked TDI will be selling slowly and they will be dealing.

To sum it up a descent deal on tires and alignment with getting to play a little with the new models. She does have her sites on a CC R line though :eek:
 

puntmeister

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Location
Arizona
TDI
2004 Jetta BEW
The real bummer:

If the Consumer Reports test is accurate (dubious), then the performance & fuel efficiency won't suffer much with all the required reprogramming & retrofitting.

So this begs the question: why did VW cheat?

The only reason would be the cost savings - reportedly around $350/car.

So, in order to shave $350 off the price of diesel cars - VW killed the diesel car market.
 

1854sailor

Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Location
Westerly, RI
TDI
2015 Golf SE SportWagen, 2015 Golf SE Hatch Back.
How many people did that stair kill, though?
Please show me one person whose death can be directly linked to VW's NOX emissions… There were 124 deaths because of GM's ignition switch problems and it did not receive nearly the publicity that "Dieselgate" has garnered.
 

TDI smile

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2012
Location
Edmonton, Alberta (b4 BC - LOWER MAINLAND = Chilli
TDI
2002 TDI (ALH) with 513,000 km. First Owner and very happy... No Problems, never left us stranded on the Highway. Average useage is about between under 4 ltr. and 5 ltr. Normal longdistance travel: 4.1/100
There were 124 deaths because of GM's ignition switch problems and it did not receive nearly the publicity that "Dieselgate" has garnered.
We are talking about "174" Death by GM's Lockgate!
 

nwdiver

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2015
Location
Texas
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI (sold); 2012 Tesla Model S
Please show me one person whose death can be directly linked to VW's NOX emissions… There were 124 deaths because of GM's ignition switch problems and it did not receive nearly the publicity that "Dieselgate" has garnered.
LOL... by that logic tobacco doesn't kill either; You can never definitively prove that they wouldn't have gotten cancer if they didn't smoke.... but the statistical evidence is undeniable.

You can't deny the negative health effects of NOx... especially in dense urban centers. Statistically this VW cheat killed ~100 people in the US; ~4000 worldwide. GM was an engineering accident; VW was intentional engineering... that's a big moral difference.
 

TDILeo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 9, 2012
Location
Portland OR
TDI
CW 2011 Golf TDI 6M Repurchased By VW 1/30/17 1985 VW GTI
Hear hear.
Question on that 'one day/year' comment.
Say I decide to keep my car in the US versus the option of shipping the car ship home to Puerto Rico as I have posted here before.
- I have the (expected) reflash done....hopefully, it's just that for the Gen 1 cars and not the whole urea retrofit thing
- I take it to DMV, car is checked, whatever stickers from the dealer are provided, car is legal, it passes
- I go home and install a Malone tune + DPF/EGR delete kit. Done properly, no codes.
- two years later in 2018, when I go renew tags, what happens?
The car will be plugged into an OBD scanner and it will have no codes. Here in Orygun, that's all that happens...there are no visual/underbody inspections, etc. I will have a 'tune code' -but I will also have whatever 'sticker' certified that the car was fixed sometime in 2016.
Thoughts?
Yeah, I had my Golf retagged in early September, just before the bad news broke. At the DEQ station on 33rd they simply plugged into the OBD, nothing in the tailpipe and I was out of there in under a minute, less the $145 for emissions testing and 2 year tags. Clearly NO2 was not on their radar.

My question is, if only a reflash turning on emissions control 24/7 would make my car compliant, how much would, say, a Malone tune put it out of bounds in Oregon. The good news is I have a 2 year window to contemplate this.
 

Jeta Life

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Location
NJ & North Pocono
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI DSG Auto
Good point

This just hit me..VW didn't lie once..they did this THREE times. We are talking doing it to get THREE different motors to pass.
exactly.

This went on and on and everyone was on the gravy train for 7 years.

It all started when Ferdinand Piech pushed out Bernd Pischetsrieder (who appointed Wolfgang Bernhard) in favor of Martin Winterkorn leaving Bernhard to the same fate.

Wolfgang Bernhard gets ousted by Martin Winterkorn in favor of Ulrich Hackenberg and Wolfgang Hatz.

The rest is history.

Make no mistake about it Ferdinand Piech still rules the roost and will squeeze every last Euro out of those crooks. German law is no joke, many to be punished. It is a mess at VW right now, their company is in turmoil.

What puzzles me is how VWs new CEO Matthias Muller defended Martin Winterkorn probably because Martin helped Matthias get ahead.

VW needs an outside party to help, hopefully Michael Horn won't be fired, he sounded cool under fire. Probably the only one of all these who can speak English.
 

Jeta Life

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2015
Location
NJ & North Pocono
TDI
2009 Jetta TDI DSG Auto
Just a friendly suggestion - you may want to think about deleting that comment - it makes you sound like a hillbilly.
my Americanized English is not perfect either, LOL

I'm an Eastern European immigrant from Jersey, not a hillbilly farmer, my Dad from PA on the other hand, he will let you know if he wants you off his porch, he acts like an American hillbilly and even dresses like one

cracks me up the old man, God Bless him pass the moonshine
 

ffcol

Member
Joined
Sep 26, 2015
Location
co
TDI
2012 passsat
Please show me one person whose death can be directly linked to VW's NOX emissions… There were 124 deaths because of GM's ignition switch problems and it did not receive nearly the publicity that "Dieselgate" has garnered.
I was being sarcastic. The EPA weenies on this board probably statistically kill more people than VW through the hypertension and high blood pressure caused by reading their posts.
 

totitan

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Location
Thousand Oaks, CA
TDI
2012 Jetta Sportwagon TDI
Do you live in the dark, or just not spend much time at home? .09 cents per kWh? I called SDG&E and asked about the after-hours charging rates, and they couldn't give me a firm answer on what the rate was.
How you got the information is impressive, or maybe Edison is less slimey than SDG&E, who essentially told me to go and calculate those rates based on my daily, hourly use found on their website.
.09 cents? You're sure you're in California? Is the Santa Barbara county you live in governed by private sector rates, or is it like parts of L.A., where the government controls electric pricing?


http://regarchive.sdge.com/tm2/pdf/ELEC_ELEC-SCHEDS_EV-TOU-2.pdf
Solar works well for me. Im in Ventura County CA, have a 3100 sf single level home with two AC systems, three refers, pool, etc. The solar panels are on a ideal SW portion of my roof, and my SCE bill last month was $1.90
 

tsingtao

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Location
Phoenix, AZ
TDI
2016 Mazda 3 Hatchback 2009 Jetta TDI--Bought back 12/21/16
You can't have it both ways and you can't pick and choose which laws to obey...Mark
No one here ever exceeds the speed limit on the freeway?

(All states, except a few have absolute speed limits that are not to be exceeded under any circumstances.)
 

tsingtao

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2004
Location
Phoenix, AZ
TDI
2016 Mazda 3 Hatchback 2009 Jetta TDI--Bought back 12/21/16
Second, pulling hills in 6th gear is generally a terrible idea. Lugging down a diesel is probably the worst thing you can do.
Is that true? When i drive from here to Flagstaff up I-17, I leave it in 6th the whole way. At interstate speeds the RPM is always above 2000 and the car doesn't seem to be protesting in the least.
 

roostre

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2012
Location
Puget Sound, WA
TDI
2012 Golf TDI DSG
Where is there video of the entire testimony?
Over 3 hours of video by C-SPAN containing both the morning session (Michael Horn’s testimony) and the afternoon session (EPA’s testimony) for the October 8, 2015 congressional house subcommittee meeting may be watched here:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?328599-1/hearing-volkswagen-emissions-violations


IMPORTANT EDIT: The two separate videos below view correctly, the combined video above may not.

~ 2 hours for Part 1 with Michael Horn
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4554476/vw-hearing-pt-1

~ 1 hour for Part 2 with the EPA
http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4554603/vw-2
 
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XJTdi

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 3, 2009
Location
Placerville, California
TDI
2010 Jetta TDI DSG

maybe368

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2014
Location
Phoenix
TDI
Happily none
No one here ever exceeds the speed limit on the freeway?

(All states, except a few have absolute speed limits that are not to be exceeded under any circumstances.)
My point exactly. We all violate laws in one way or another, probably daily, and therefore nobody gets to pull the rule of law card. As you probably already know, 20 mph over posted limit or 85 max can land you in jail in AZ...Mark
 
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