Volkswagen's Clean Air Act violations on 2009+ TDIs spark huge recall, investigations

[licoriceallsort]

USA Today is now reporting:

The boss of Volkswagen's ultra-luxury Porsche brand is expected to be named CEO of the German automaker when the company's board meets Friday, according to multiple reports.

The WSJ started reporting this an hour ago, too.

From The Guardian's dedicated live thread (a good resource in general), if you're a betting person:

Here’s the latest odds from Ladbrokes:
1/2 Matthias Muller
4/1 Herbert Diess
5/1 Rupert Stadler, the chairman of Audi
5/1 Andreas Renschler, who runs Volkswagen’s commercial vehicles arm,
6/1 Winfried Vahland, CEO of Škoda

 

[davidlp]

I bought my 2015 GSW two months. Fantastic mileage (50.5 last tank) but the performance is below that of my 2002 chipped TDI, which put out 116hp & 195ft-lb torque with chip. Both are sticks. On paper the 2015 should be at least a little faster 0-60 but it sure doesn't feel it. So... I wonder if I got flashed before delivery, as a previous poster mentioned his mileage was still good after the flash but the car seemed slower. I've got to find a way to time some good 0-60 runs and a place I can do them. I seem to remember the Ross-Tech software can do that.

 

[Tom S. in Tn.]

I am a retired corporate attorney and owner of two VWs with TDI engines, which I really like. I am not at all offended by what the EPA has alleged, and the real facts will eventually emerge.

I do know a lot about class action lawsuits. Law firms which specialize in this type of legal action only need one person who owns one of the affected VWs and will list him/her as the plaintiff, and allege that the potential group of plaintiffs is so large that the suit should be elevated to class action for the sake of judicial efficiency. At this time, it is my understanding that several legal actions have already been commenced, and each will first attempt to knock the others out of the game.

At some point, the winning law firm will obtain a list of all VW owners with affected engines, and will mail them notice of the class action case and that they have the option to opt out. Not opting out means that you will be automatically included as a plaintiff and will supposedly get your share of the award, if any. The law firm will of course get the lion's share of any settlement. These cases never go to trial, being settled along the way. After a settlement is reached, the law firm will give the judge a list of all of its expenses to date, which will come out of the settlement. The amount will be very large, as these firms routinely will charge about $1000 per billable hour for these cases. Also, they do not give a rip about you, but are only in it for the $$$$$.

Thinking about the critical matter of proof of damages, no one on this earth can prove any real damages due to this VW code. We have cars that get higher mpg than the EPA estimate, so we spend less on fuel. No damage here. You also have no legal standing to sue on behalf of the environment or the EPA. It is still raging whether the EPA uses real science or junk science fueled by a political agenda. Using real scientific methods, no one to date has adduced any proof of environmental damage caused by diesel powered cars. So, no damage here either.

What is the almost certain outcome in this case is that VW will negotiate some amount of EPA fines, and will pay a class action settlement, which will not be large enough to pay the expenses of the action. We will all most surely receive some sort of notice from VW to take our cars to the dealer where the computer chip will be reflashed with code that will make your car lower powered, less efficient, and allegedly cleaner running. VW cannot force you to do this to your car, so it will be a voluntary action. The EPA may also mail you a threatening letter that you need to have your car computer reflashed, which you may also refuse to comply with. Most states, like mine, exempt all diesel powered cars from emissions testing.

May the torque continue to be with you,

Speedster

Speedster; Are you old enough to recall the litigation against FMC involving Pinto fuel tanks? The chief prosecution in that case, now deceased, resided in Nashville Tn. and I became a little familiar with it.
Less than a decade later a similar case was filed against GM involving fuel tanks on a much larger fleet of pickups that were manufactured over a much longer period of time.
In both cases there was a class action settlement (GM the biggest violator was minimal), but it was actually a settlement with among a few people who actually suffered pain or loss.

But what about this case? It's EPA and CARB law that's violated while actual human pain or loss is kind of undetermined....... or is it?
Who is more influential? Citizens or the law that governs them? What could you predict in this case, if you would?

It may be wishful thinking due to my personal disgust, but I do not see VW/Audi recovering, and especially if this becomes a more global problem than just here in the USA.
Post back please. I'd like to see your opinion. Tom S. in Tn.

 

[105Uphill]

I should make my wife read all 200+ pages of this thread.
She made me sell my A3 with 384k on it rather than fix it.
I gave it to my daughter and it started blowing white smoke.
Never the less.... I miss blowing black smoke at other obnoxious drivers and rue the day I bought a TDI that doesn't smoke at all.

 

[Mark SF]

The trade in value just took a big hit, no? I am hoping they buy back my lease.

What do you think a lease is? It's not a deal between you and the dealer. You have a contract with VW Credit. The dealer would have to pay the payoff amount to VW Credit, which is, at a guess, two years payments plus the final agreed value.

So the dealer would be donating the difference between the payoff amount, and the car's current trade-in value.

Let me know how that goes.

 

[wiley264]

The logic does not follow. I live in a CARB state but not only is there no emissions testing, there is no anything related to registration, which is completely separated from the motor vehicle safety inspection program.



Keep in mind this only pertains to new vehicle purchases. Older vehicles and emissions testing are irrespective of CARB standards.

The whole point of CARB is that if your car is CARB-certified in tests, no per-car emissions tests are necessary. At most, they make sure the MIL is off (or interrogate the ECU equivalently).

To give you an example, cars made 2009 or later don't need emissions tests in Washington if they are CARB certified. You also can't register a new car that isn't CARB-certified (although there are some grandfather clauses for those moving to WA with used cars).

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/cleancar.html

If that CARB certification is made to require recall work, you will be unable to register your car until you have the work done. No emissions tests.

 

[Speedster]

Tom S. in Tn.

I do indeed recall the exploding Pinto gas tank case. What distinguishes that case from this case is the nature of the provable damages. With the Pinto case, real people were turned into blazing torches. Damages were easily provable. In this case, damages are truly speculative. In addition, people cannot sue someone else for violation of a government agency regulation. The government agency is supposed to enforce its own regulations. Can an individual sue for personal damages? Yes, but the level of proof is so high and the damages so small that most lawyers would not take the case.

Speedster

 

[blazerico]

someone should block new users from joining for a while, maybe until this blows over. this thread is somewhat fun, but mostly impossible to read due to crazy comments.

 

[Sfkjeld]

Really?

Get a life!

I assume given your avatar, that you couldn't care less about the environment and it is confirmed with your dullard's post.

 

[cane929]

In the mean time, I will enjoy my 51.4 mpg commuting 85 miles a day to work and back

 

[blue_jetta]

The level of crazy has really ramped up in here today.

The hysteria is pretty amazing. I had mentally decided a while ago that when the time came I would replace one of my Jettas with a Passat and one with a Sportwagen. If I had to replace a car tomorrow, I'd still be looking for a low mileage used TDI.

Drive more, worry less! I think most of of do enough driving that the present benefit and pleasure of driving these vehicles outweigh any future negative outcome.

 

[csl223]

I am a retired corporate attorney and owner of two VWs with TDI engines, which I really like. I am not at all offended by what the EPA has alleged, and the real facts will eventually emerge.

I do know a lot about class action lawsuits. Law firms which specialize in this type of legal action only need one person who owns one of the affected VWs and will list him/her as the plaintiff, and allege that the potential group of plaintiffs is so large that the suit should be elevated to class action for the sake of judicial efficiency. At this time, it is my understanding that several legal actions have already been commenced, and each will first attempt to knock the others out of the game.

At some point, the winning law firm will obtain a list of all VW owners with affected engines, and will mail them notice of the class action case and that they have the option to opt out. Not opting out means that you will be automatically included as a plaintiff and will supposedly get your share of the award, if any. The law firm will of course get the lion's share of any settlement. These cases never go to trial, being settled along the way. After a settlement is reached, the law firm will give the judge a list of all of its expenses to date, which will come out of the settlement. The amount will be very large, as these firms routinely will charge about $1000 per billable hour for these cases. Also, they do not give a rip about you, but are only in it for the $$$$$.

Thinking about the critical matter of proof of damages, no one on this earth can prove any real damages due to this VW code. We have cars that get higher mpg than the EPA estimate, so we spend less on fuel. No damage here. You also have no legal standing to sue on behalf of the environment or the EPA. It is still raging whether the EPA uses real science or junk science fueled by a political agenda. Using real scientific methods, no one to date has adduced any proof of environmental damage caused by diesel powered cars. So, no damage here either.

What is the almost certain outcome in this case is that VW will negotiate some amount of EPA fines, and will pay a class action settlement, which will not be large enough to pay the expenses of the action. We will all most surely receive some sort of notice from VW to take our cars to the dealer where the computer chip will be reflashed with code that will make your car lower powered, less efficient, and allegedly cleaner running. VW cannot force you to do this to your car, so it will be a voluntary action. The EPA may also mail you a threatening letter that you need to have your car computer reflashed, which you may also refuse to comply with. Most states, like mine, exempt all diesel powered cars from emissions testing.

May the torque continue to be with you,

Speedster

I agree it will be difficult to prove damages, however we need to let things unfold and see what happens. First, I don't see any proof that these cars all get significantly higher fuel economy than EPA averages, I agree this may be the case for highway driving and people who frequent country roads, but I struggle to get close to the 'city' figure quite often... regardless there will have to be scientific tests done on the cars before and after any fix to determine what detrimental effects (if any) there are.

I am concerned with fuel economy, but moreso with power and torque... and if this is affected it should be quite easy to show. Even if VW doesn't have to force their customers to get the recall, the customers will be forced to get the fix to have the car they were originally promissed (one that is certified for sale in the US and meets all emissions regulations), if this changes the characteristics they purchased the car for (i.e. power, economy, or both) I do not see how they wont have to pay damages. There would be no way to legally keep the vehicle they originally purchased.

I am no lawyer, maybe i am missing something... but you are arguing there is no proof of damages using solely conjecture. And I don't think the argument will be that the defeat code caused damages to the consumer, rather the fix.

 

[VWturbodiesel]

Are these 4 cyl turbo made in Mexico only?

As I know, the V-6 Tdi made in Germany.

 

[PC Dave]

Building a Prius (or any car) to replace the one that you're leasing on the dealer's lot will emit far, far more than a TDI will until it's fixed.

Shhh. Don't let facts derail a perfectly good fit of sanctimonious outrage. He's on a roll..

 

[Slurry Pumper]

I for 1 am relieved the car spewing more NOx is better than spewing more NOFX.

 

[GTRVTDI]

Any thoughts here...

Hi All...interesting how different folks react to the paparazzi..I don't condone what VW did but not driving your TDI because of the 'pollution' it's emitting is like trying to smell a fart in a hurricane. I have a 1999 F350 7.3 diesel Ford truck that I bought new and I don't even want to think what magnitude or order it spews comparitively speaking. It's a truck like thousands of others which are needed for commerce. I don't have the numbers but I think my TDI is putting out a fraction. To my question..I noticed some soot in the tail pipe and went to the map of the folks who have the OBD port test machines, sorry forgot the name I'm new to all this, and the DPF was only .40 and there were no fault codes..any thoughts? Thanks awesome forum...For all those worriers, I just bought 2 TDI's a week before they made the announcement and I do it again.

 

[pfennig]

Since any individual car owner can only demand the value of the car, it will not be worth filing an individual action. This is another rationale for the class action.

IANAL, but you're saying I couldn't demand the original purchase price back, would be limited to the current value of the car? That doesn't seem right/just, but a lot of this situation isn't "right".


If filing an individual suit isn't reasonable, and selling/trading-in the car will lose me money (new car depreciation + extra depreciation/reduced market because of this fiasco), then the only choices are

1) Wait and take the detune and hope the offered compensation is worth it
2) Wait and try to avoid the detune
3) Join a class action suit#3 won't cost me anything, and wont prevent me from doing #1 or #2.... I think? So why shouldn't everyone, including those who plan to dodge the recall, just sign on to one of the class action suits? I'd assume the class action suits will just result in a pittance, but a pittance + lousy official compensation is better than just lousy official compensation.

IANAL, but if anyone is and is willing to share some advice to fellow enthusiasts I'm sure we're all ears.

 

[gnuworldorder]

I for 1 am relieved the car spewing more NOx is better than spewing more NOFX.

they havent put out a decent album in over a decade

 

[Cabel]

I plan on continuing to drive my TDI I have no reservations about continuing to drive it at all. At this point I will continue to do so I love the cars mileage and performance. I would purchase another TDI or what ever VW comes up with if it has comparable performance. Just have some concerns about what might happen in the future once this is all resolved if it ever is. I don't see any reason for your rant about my post, however that's your option.

For me it's either drive the 2012 Golf TDI (say at about 1.0 g/km NOx average per the actual emissions findings), drive the 2007 Dodge Ram Cummins at about 2.5 g/km NOx, or the 1973 MGB at about, well somewhere just short of a WWII destroyer laying a smokescreen.

When you look at the historical emissions limits ( https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/hd.php ) then factor in that there are a LOT of those older cars still on the road, my Golf still is way, WAY cleaner than 90% of the vehicles on the road today.

 

[nokivasara]

Events like this always brings up people who are only driven by greed, suddenly they can't breathe as their car spews out more NOx than it should, and they have $$ in their eyes.
Funny how no one has ever written anything like that in the history of this site, until "dieselgate".
It's just as disgusting as what VW has done IMO.

 

[Chazik]

Events like this always brings up people who are only driven by greed, suddenly they can't breathe as their car spews out more NOx than it should, and they have $$ in their eyes.
Funny how no one has ever written anything like that in the history of this site, until "dieselgate".
It's just as disgusting as what VW has done IMO.

I love my 2015 Jetta TDI. But if my car is now devalued because VW lied. Then I want a check for the difference. It's only fair, the car is now worth less because of their deliberate actions.

But I will not claim that is has affected my breathing, that would be a lie.

 

[slk23]

I bought the car for different reasons than many of you long-time diesel owners. I am not tied to diesel. I am not a defender of the TDI badge. I simply thought I was getting a fun-to-drive hybrid alternative. Two things - green and fun.

My car is not green according to the EPA (I know many of you enjoy arguing this point, but I'm going by what the gov't says). So I actually only have one of the two things I thought I purchased. In order to make it green I expect there will be a downgrade to performance. So my fear is that after getting it fixed (because I need to pass emissions) I will still be left with only one of the two things I thought I bought.

That is my only concern here. I have no ulterior motives.

There are many of us here who feel exactly the same way. We thought we were buying a clean car with good performance (mpg and power).

 

[Norm0770]

I find it hard to believe that anyone at Volkswagen with the authority and resources to orchestrate such a nefarious “cheat” would be willing to bet the corporate farm to sell 500,000 cars over 6 years. When the real story is told I think we will find that the offending portion of code was intended for developmental/test purposes only and was inadvertently left in the production software because it produced very favorable results. Nobody ever bothered to ask if the results were too good to be true without SCR - or why these vehicles routinely surpass EPA mileage figures in the wild.

I think it’s plausible that such a software routine was used during engine development to change the behavior of the emission system in response to very specific sets of input parameters - including those encountered during the very important EPA test cycle. It was never intended to be active in the deployed software.

My guess is that VW only discovered this monumental blunder after being repeatedly challenged by the EPA and finally taking a closer look at the deployed code. At this point it became a question of fessing up to this damaging mistake or stalling for time to see if the EPA loses interest. So at worst VW is guilty of an ill-conceived cover-up after the fact because they felt that VW would face an existential threat if the error was revealed. In fact, I would not be surprised if the a “boardroom drama” last year that led to the resignation of Ferdinand Piech was centered around this very question.

VW has given us a small preview of their defense by “admitting” that the offending software was actually deployed to 11 million cars around the world - not just in the U.S. Why would VW intentionally include the illicit code on so many vehicles that will never be subjected to the EPA test cycle? Wouldn’t this seem to increase the chances that the “scheme” would eventually be found out? The answer is simple: VW didn’t realize that the code was there - it was simply a very big mistake.

It seems like the media has failed to consider such a scenario in their rush to turn VW into a corporate pariah. I will withhold judgement until all the facts are available.

That does make some sense, especially since the manufacturers self test for emissions and fuel economy. But what an incredibly costly mistake leaving it in...

Now the engineers are starting to take the fall too...

http://blog.caranddriver.com/diesel-cheating-scandal-claiming-top-engineers-at-vw/

 

[Ch3No2]

2010 Jetta TDI Wagon 190,000 miles...been a great car!
Car and I are in California with 4 payments left and a smog due in Dec
My question....
If the car doesn't pass smog will I be unable to register and drive with 1 payment to go?

 

[TDI smile]

Now the engineers are starting to take the fall too...

http://blog.caranddriver.com/diesel-cheating-scandal-claiming-top-engineers-at-vw/

The "cleaning people" will have to go too

 

[imurrx]

So was the pos we had......... until we actually tried to turn it.
Doubt me? Take it to your nearest dealeer and see what they give you.

And I'm still pissed. Tom S. in Tn.

I was offered $10,335 on my 2010 Jetta TDI Cup SE. Same value as my loan. I was expecting 10% more. I liked the Tiguan but the mundane MPG was a turnoff.

So I'll hold on to my TDI , get the recall and then stage 1 Malone tune it.

 

[Speedster]

CSI223, the cost to VW to "fix" the cars is simple. Each VW dealer will be given the correct computer code that will restore the embedded code to EPA compliance. All that a dealer mechanic will need to do will be to remove the car's computer, flash the main chip that stores all of the algorithms, and reinstall the computer. As a hobby, I built a Megasquirt ECU for a show car. I had to go online at one point to download and flash the chip on the printed circuit board to control the fuel system. Done, that fast. Malone does the same thing with their power enhancing computer code.

Since each state has separate laws regarding emissions testing, I do not know how anyone could be forced to have their computer chip reflashed. Some states, like California, may require that action, while other states will do nothing.

My experience regarding settling government agency fines is not huge, but I was involved in a couple. First, the agency will allege the maximum fines allowed by law to induce the target to come into compliance with the law. In the course of events, the target company complies, shows proof thereof, and the fine is greatly diminished. In this case, if VW can allege and prove that the code used accidentally got into the computer chips, then I would expect the fine to be much less. If, however, the EPA can prove that VW knowingly put the defeat code into the computers, the EPA will attempt to make an example out of VW by demanding huge fines. Usually, a government agency does not attempt to prove that sort of culpability, since its role is to simply enforce regulations through the assessment of fines. The class action law firm will attempt to show intentional flashing of the defeat code. I do not believe that at this time, VW has admitted to intentionally using the defeat code. They have only admitted to the code being installed on the diesel cars. There is a huge difference between the two.


Speedster

 

[Tri0de]

A total newbie question:

And I admit, I only joined because of this emissions crap, although I've read posts her for a year or so...

I bought a 2015 beetle four weeks ago.

ASSUMING that I have to have the recall done (live in California) and that said recall screws up performance/mileage or reliability-

Will I be able, using software, to restore the car to previous performance?

I don't mind buying some gear, learning how to use it and messing around before having to get it smogged again- if indeed I have to once she (the wife calls her 'Ladybug as it is red) is CARB certified as having been 'updated'.

Sorry to be such an idiot Newbie, please have mercy on me, break it down for some poor soul who JUST bought a new vehicle three weeks before this BS-

Thanks

 

[jpuracchio]

Same situation....

Yeah I'm kinda pissed about it too.

Just responding to your thread....also a '09 Jetta TDI owner.....trying to determine if my car falls within the affected EPA test group of vehicles....or are all '09s going to be subject to recall? Confused when they say not all cars are effected......? Ohio resident and unsure about emissions testing for plate renewals, ext. Thanks

 

[LogicBomb]

Michael Horn, U.S. operations CEO, is reported to be on his way out. Reuters and CNBC are reporting as much as well.


http://www.freep.com/story/money/ca...-volkswagen-us-ceo-michael-horn-out/72733732/